Bob Foster cleaned out the division pre title

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

allen thomas, antonio selpha, eddie cotton, henry hank all top dangerous contenders foster knocked out leading up to the incredible dick tiger knockout.


anyone heard of allen thomas? i bet not. very underated fighter. thomas was a world class highly touted prospect who was thought to be the next champ, foster knocked him out in 1. thomas was a terrific fighter.


henry hank one of the best lightheavyweights of the 1960s, inconsistent but on his best night is easily world class and he was on his best night vs foster but foster still put him out in 10.

eddie cotton, you guys know him? probably top 30 lightheavyweight of all time at 39 robbed against jose torres in bid for the title.

people dont realize fosters best wins came pre title.




the only one foster didnt beat was mauro mina when a green foster suffered a loss to a very good top fighter mina early in his career, he got no rematch when mina retired due to eye detached retina. foster didnt face jose torres cause tores wanted no part of foster

[granberry]

foster didnt face jose torres cause tores wanted no part of foster

That is true.

Blowhard Jose Torres disappeared very suddenly once Foster showed up.

Foster's most remarkable win was his 3rd round KO of Eddie Cotton.

Cotton beat the hell out of Torres in a title fight and was robbed in one of the worst decisions in the history of boxing.

[elmersalsa]

It is a shame that he could not hang with the big dogs, the heavyweights, but at 175, he was awesome.

[granberry]

Good post. Foster's competition gets underrated because he fought just before a great era of light heavyweights.

Foster fought just AFTER a great era of light heavyweights.

Harold Johnson and Doug Jones.

Doug Jones had the bad luck to run into Harold Johnson in his title chance.

Doug Jones would have beaten any of the light heavyweight champions since then.

He did beat the best lightheavyweight since Johnson, when he stopped Bob Foster.

Jones' chin was so good he took Foster's best and came back to stop him.

Has anybody here seen Jones' fight with Ali?

Jones showed up fat and not in the best of shape at 188 3/4.

He was so fat Ali made up a "poem" about how fat he was at the weigh in.

At 25 pounds heavier, Ali couldn't hurt Jones,

and Jones hurt Ali several times, starting with his staggering Ali with a right hand 15 seconds into the fight.

Jones' straight punches made Ali's wider punches look foolish

and Jones' tight defense and concise boxing stance made Ali look awkward.

And that was two fights before Ali supposedly was able to beat Liston.

Jones was by far the best lightheavyweight of any since the time of Harold Johnson.

What bad luck for him that his title chance came against Johnson.

[granberry]

Foster was in his 10th pro fight against Jones, even though the two were around the same age. Prime vs. prime, Foster beats him.

More "fairy tales," huh.

In the REAL WORLD, Ali couldn't beat Doug Jones.

[dempseyfire]

Foster was in his 10th pro fight against Jones, even though the two were around the same age. Prime vs. prime, Foster beats him.

More "fairy tales," huh.

In the REAL WORLD, Ali couldn't beat Doug Jones.

Cassius won a comfortable decision, only a biased eye would claim Jones got robbed. Jones just did not throw enough punches to win that fight. Clay threw more, landed more, and was more aggressive.

And this is someone who believes the 3rd Norton fight was one of the worst robberies in HW title history, and that Young deserved the decision in his fight with an out of shape Ali.

But Jones lost fair and square.

[granberry]

Foster was in his 10th pro fight against Jones, even though the two were around the same age. Prime vs. prime, Foster beats him.

More "fairy tales," huh.

In the REAL WORLD, Ali couldn't beat Doug Jones.

Cassius won a comfortable decision, only a biased eye would claim Jones got robbed. Jones just did not throw enough punches to win that fight. Clay threw more, landed more, and was more aggressive.

And this is someone who believes the 3rd Norton fight was one of the worst robberies in HW title history, and that Young deserved the decision in his fight with an out of shape Ali.

But Jones lost fair and square.

Doug Jones won a comfortable decision, only a biased eye would claim Ali "won" that fight.

Jones staggered Ali with a right hand 15 seconds into the fight. He also hurt Ali several other times in the fight.

Ali, although 25 pounds heavier, showed he couldn't hurt Jones.

The fight showed that Ali had no defense, was quite hurtable, and didn't have the punching power to bother a fighter 25 pounds lighter he was.

The crowd at Madison Square Garden showered the ring with peanut bags and debris as a reaction to the "decision" given to Clay.

Clay got embarrased royally by Doug Jones.

Clay never fought Jones again.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

ezzard charles beat harold johnson but was robbed granberry

[I Feel Fine]

Foster was a wrecking ball at Light Heavyweight. Whether or not his best wins were pre-title, the guy was likely one of the two best Light Heavyweight champions ever, maybe the best. He had the whole package at Light Heavyweight; size, power, speed, great jab, good chin (not that many people hit him at 175, but much better than at Heavyweight), and could fight for 15 rounds. And he was a two fisted puncher. The left hooks he landed on Tiger and Quarry were perfect shots, but he also knocked the heck out of Rondon and some others with some sweet right hands.

As for Doug Jones, who was a good fighter; Foster only had 10 or so fights going into that match. Clay also was only 17-0. Clay said that he would stop Jones in 4 rounds, and Clay probably trained for a 4 round fight, because he ran out of gas by the 6th round... but he basically won the first 6. Jone was not robbed, and the Clay that fought Liston probably would have stopped him. The MSG crowd that boo'd the decision was pulling for the underdog, and the NY fighter... and they didn't like Clay to begin with. Maybe if Jones had beaten Terrell there might have been a rematch, but he didn't, so Ali unified with Terrell. Jones also lost to Chuvalo prior to Chuvalo's fight with Ali. No room for a rematch.

[I Feel Fine]

ezzard charles beat harold johnson but was robbed granberry

Yeah, I've read that some thought Charles won the fight; the fight itself took place in Johnson's hometown. Charles is another candidate for best Light Heavyweight ever, along with Foster and Moore... who Charles beat three times.

[granberry]

As for Doug Jones, who was a good fighter; Foster only had 10 or so fights going into that match. Clay also was only 17-0.

The excuses offered by the Ali industry are pathetic.

Ali supposedly was able to beat Liston two fights after he struggled with Doug Jones.

You can't have it both ways, Ali salesman.

If Ali was a poor novice when he struggled with Doug Jones,

then how did he become your "greatest of all time" two fights later?

LOL

Foster never beat a heavyweight.

Doug Jones beat the hell out of Ali, and knocked out Zora Folley with a single punch.

Foster was great when he was the one doing the hitting,

but Foster never fought Archie Moore or Harold Johnson.

Harold Johnson beat Jones thoroughly, and knocked Jones through the ropes in a late round.

In comparison your "greatest of all time" Ali struggled with Jones, got hit a lot by Jones, was staggered by Jones, and showed he had zero punching power against Doug Jones.

Even though Clay was a head taller and 25 pounds heavier.

Doug Jones embarrassed Ali badly.

[I Feel Fine]

Nothing pathetic here.

Now, to the issue...

Most fighters struggle in a fight somewhere in their first 20 fights. Name most any good/great fighter you want to name. Armstrong, Hopkins, R. Marquez lost their very first fights. Within their first 20 fights Frazier struggled against Bonavena, Foreman against Peralta, Leonard against Mayweather.. and they were Gold Medal winners, as Ali was. It happens. It's a learning experience in your first 20 or so fights, and you might come up against someone who will give you difficulty. Doug Jones was that for Ali... as Jones was for Bob Foster as well, which is a bit more on topic.

Fighters also change from fight to fight, as you might know. Look at Jones if you like, he lost to Folley and then three or four months later knocked Folley out. Did Jones improve vastly in a few months? Maybe, maybe not... sometimes fighters do, especially young fighters. But a fighter can change from fight to fight, and we have seen this time and again. Clay thought he would knock out Jones in 4 rounds and likely trained accordingly... Liston, on the other hand, frightened Clay, kind of like Foreman did, and that motivated Clay in the gym. Clay took Liston a lot more seriously than Doug Jones, and sometimes that's all it takes. Look at Buster Douglas.

Clay clearly had a difficult time with Jones, but the idea that this 21 year old Clay was the fighter he would be in later years , or the idea that Jones was robbed are usually views that come from a camp that doesn't like Ali so much, for whatever reason that is. Point is, Clay won the first 6 rounds of a 10 round fight... that's all you gotta do.

The size difference between Ali and Jones matters little. Foreman and Foster were Ali's height, they didn't do as well against him as Frazier did...

[Collins2000]

Can you guys please stop using logic when speaking to The Wheelchair Warrior Crankberry. He doesn't understand it and it makes him angry and his male nurse has trouble getting his catheter back in after he rips it out screaming insanely about the 'goddamn ali industry shills'!

Thanks in advance.

[HomicideHenry]

One man Bob Foster failed to have met, but was going to, was WBA (?) number four ranked contender Jerry "The Byrdstown Bomber" Evans, who was a very good fighter, but unfortunately near the end of his career cut easily, and had to retire.

[I Feel Fine]

Was Ali-Liston I a fix job? Maybe

I don't think that fight is in doubt. The second fight may have been the most obvious "dive" in boxing history, but the first fight was absolutely legit. If Liston was throwing the fight, why did he try to blind Clay... why did he almost take Clay's head off in the 2nd round... why did he let himself take so much punishment, including that nasty cut.... Liston did not throw the first fight.

Just my opinion, I don't want to turn this into an Ali thread or anything... Foster is very much worth talking about. Amazing fighter.

Collins... lol, will do.

[elmersalsa]

I wonder if Roy Jones Jr would have challenged Foster for the lightheavywight title?

[HomicideHenry]

I like how RING magazine once put it, when it came to Jones vs The All Time Greats, that if Foster, Conn, Moore were in Jones era or vice versa, its not that Jones might not have the ability to fight or even defeat them, but Jones would have ducked them all.

[granberry]

I like how RING magazine once put it, when it came to Jones vs The All Time Greats, that if Foster, Conn, Moore were in Jones era or vice versa, its not that Jones might not have the ability to fight or even defeat them, but Jones would have ducked them all.

Looks like what was left of the Ring magazine by the times of Roy Jones

never heard of Philadelphia Jack O"Brien, George Carpentier, Tommy Loughran, Jack Delaney, Paul Berlenbach, Jack Dillon, etc.

And it used to be known as the Bible of boxing.

[I Feel Fine]

Well again, I don't want to distract from the point of this thread decagon, perhaps it would be bettet to start a separate thread. But I'll give a short answer... at at least as short an answer as possible while addressing everything you said. Bert Sugar would say that Liston had a reputation for trying to blind his opponents when he was in trouble. I think the example he uses is against Zora Folley, but I haven't seen that fight. I don't know all the in's and out's of what you're saying about Liston's management. Ali to my understanding was managed by Herbert Muhammad after the first Liston fight, not one of Liston's people. In fact wasn't he stripped of his WBA title because he left the Louisville group and went with Herbert Muhammad... I think I remember reading that.

Again, I agree that Clay looking bad against Jones is not relevant. I gave the example of Jones himself against Folley. Ali looked better against Liston than he did against Jones and Cooper, and he looked better against Foreman than he did against Norton. I attribute that to him taking those fights more seriously, and training a lot harder for those fights, partly because he was probably legitimately afraid of Liston and Foreman.

As for the second fight, Liston was clearly hit by a punch, but I agree that whether or not we was knocked down legitimately, I think he could have gotten up. You mention Joe Walcott, the ref for that fight... some have said that he took a dive in the Marciano rematch, which was also a one round fight. The claim is that Walcott took his last payday and sat down without having to take to much damage from Rocky again... maybe Liston did the same?

I don't believe that any other version of Liston would have beaten Clay, and I don't believe Liston's style was suited for Clay. I think he showed in the 2nd and 5th rounds that he was really trying to knock out Clay, but Clay was the most mobile, slick fighter he had faced... and Clay was taller and younger. Liston couldn't knock out Machen, and Clay was much bigger, faster and slicker than Machen. And, to be fair, I don't know how hard Liston trained for this fight either. Liston trained for a 6 round fight according to Ali's own biography.

I agree that Liston quitting is irrelevant. Fighters quit... it happens. He said he had an injured shoulder, as Vitali said.

[Collins2000]

I no longer say that Ali-Liston I was a fix. I'm not convinced it was legitimate, and I'm not convinced it wasn't legitimate. I hope people take into account all aspects of the situation before making a judgement. I've only covered a few in this short space.

Please list the other aspects you think are important, Zac.

There is plenty of time and space.

[granberry]

Liston headhunted all night, and everyone who headhunted the great Muhammad Ali usually ended up looking like a fool.

You mean like Doug Jones, who staggered Ali with a right hand 15 seconds into their fight and hit Ali accurately with his jab and right hand all night long?

You mean like 185 1/2 pound Henry Cooper, who floored Ali with a left hook at the end of the 4th round
and bloodied Ali's nose 20 secondss into their fight?

You mean like Jimmy Young, who used Ali's head (and body) as a punching bag all night long?

You mean like Ken Norton, who broke Ali's jaw.

You mean like Ernie Shavers, who pulverized what was left of Ali's brain cells all night long?

You mean like Sonny Banks, who dropped Ali on the seat of his pants with a single left hook?

You mean like skinny Bob Foster, who cut Ali's left eye and hit him with numerous right hands?

etc etc etc

LOL

[granberry]

The myth of the "phanton punch" of course is just that - a myth. Liston got hit with a solid shot, and he went down, probably legitimately. He'd been knocked down by weaker punchers than Ali.

NAME THEM, Decagon.

We are waiting.

Ignorance of Liston is a prerequisite for being a member of the Ali industry.

[Eric the Viking]

Ah, another thread about something else gets twisted into an anti-Ali rant by someone with an axe to grind.

The excuses offered by the Ali industry are pathetic.

I liked the phrasebook used by granBot v1.0 better - "half-witted Ali shill" just rolls off the tongue so nicely.

Now, can we please get back on-topic? I do believe this thread was about Bob Foster ... how about someone starting a nice juicy "Bob Foster got kayoed by the feather-fisted, plodding Joe Frazier" discussion, that would be rather nice.

[granberry]

.
Poor eric doesn't like it when the inflated talking points about his modern "heroes" are exploded.

Ah, another thread about something else gets twisted into an anti-Ali rant by someone with an axe to grind.

The excuses offered by the Ali industry are pathetic.

I liked the phrasebook used by granBot v1.0 better - "half-witted Ali shill" just rolls off the tongue so nicely.

Now, can we please get back on-topic? I do believe this thread was about Bob Foster ... how about someone starting a nice juicy "Bob Foster got kayoed by the feather-fisted, plodding Joe Frazier" discussion, that would be rather nice.

Liston headhunted all night, and everyone who headhunted the great Muhammad Ali usually ended up looking like a fool.

You mean like Doug Jones, who staggered Ali with a right hand 15 seconds into their fight and hit Ali accurately with his jab and right hand all night long?

You mean like 185 1/2 pound Henry Cooper, who floored Ali with a left hook at the end of the 4th round
and bloodied Ali's nose 20 secondss into their fight?

You mean like Jimmy Young, who used Ali's head (and body) as a punching bag all night long?

You mean like Ken Norton, who broke Ali's jaw.

You mean like Ernie Shavers, who pulverized what was left of Ali's brain cells all night long?

You mean like Sonny Banks, who dropped Ali on the seat of his pants with a single left hook?

You mean like skinny Bob Foster, who cut Ali's left eye and hit him with numerous right hands?

etc etc etc

LOL

[I Feel Fine]

Bert Sugar would say that Liston had a reputation for trying to blind his opponents when he was in trouble.

Bert Sugar is a moron. He still perpetuates the Pep-Graves myth, and when he managed Ring magazine, he continued to give credence to the myth that Jack Johnson threw the Jess Willard fight. I've never heard that he tried to blind Zora Folley, but there were rumors (which Williams tried to dispell) that Liston blinded him.

I often find myself disagreeing with Sugar, but I mention it because I haven't seen the Folley fight. Does any film exist of it? Maybe someone has seen it.

I notice most of the examples granberry uses of Ali looking bad came when Ali was shot, post-Manila... Young, Shavers... or too young.. Banks, where Ali wasn't even 15-0, and Jones where he was 17-0 and had trained for a four rounder.. or Cooper where Ali just got nailed...

The idea that Ali didn't have a great chin based on the Cooper or Banks knock downs is ridiculous IMO. Frazier hit him much harder than that, Shavers did, Foreman did a couple of times. Ali matured as a fighter and took a punch better in his late 20's 30's than he did when he was 21... I'm sure there are other examples of that happening with other fighters.

You can't use Ali-Foster to attack Ali... Ali barely exerted himself and he still knocked Foster down 7 times... when Tyson KO'd Spinks people thought he was indestructible, when Ali and Frazier destroyed Foster it was considered a sub-par win... go figure.