ali over rated

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 10 Apr 2007, 22:28

Why I've got half a mind to push old granberry off of his shuffleboard ledge and let Young Collins marinate in his unchanged diapers. But then I would not be the lovable fella that I truly am. So true to self I'll do the right thing, I'll let granby play his game and send someone other than myself straightaway to change Collins diapers , just like the goodfella that I truly am.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 10 Apr 2007, 22:58

BoxBuzz wrote:Why I've got half a mind to push old granberry off of his shuffleboard ledge and let Young Collins marinate in his unchanged diapers. But then I would not be the lovable fella that I truly am. So true to self I'll do the right thing, I'll let granby play his game and send someone other than myself straightaway to change Collins diapers , just like the goodfella that I truly am.

He's after you, mate. He's says he got a thing about old funky musicians who don't mind blowing a few notes on the pink oboe. Keep your back against the wall when you are near Pervert Crankberry. Even in his wheelchair he can still be a threat to someone in your time of life.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 10 Apr 2007, 23:50

This thread is about as ridiculous as the Marvel comics depiction of Ali vs Superman on a planet without a yellow sun, so that Superman wouldn't have his 'powers', and Ali knocks Superman out inside of two-three rounds.

I mean seriously guys...Ali wasn't over-rated, at least when it came down to who he fought and defeated. If anything is over-rated about Ali, it would be his over all skills. He was bad infighter, could be set up for shots, but Ali's mind games, speed and ability to absorb punishment more than made up the difference.

So really it levels it all off. Was he invincible? No. I believe even at his best, which can be argued, I believe there are a few past champions who could have either beaten him or would have gave him one helluva fight.

Anybody can be defeated, Ali lost 5 times. Three times when he was over the hill, and twice when he was in his prime or near his prime. Then of course there are the 'gift' decisions over Young and possibly against Norton, as some believe Norton beat him at least two out of the three fights.

He wasn't perfect, but he wasn't too far behind it as a fighter.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Apr 2007, 14:13

HomicideHenry wrote:This thread is about as ridiculous as the Marvel comics depiction of Ali vs Superman on a planet without a yellow sun, so that Superman wouldn't have his 'powers', and Ali knocks Superman out inside of two-three rounds.

I mean seriously guys...Ali wasn't over-rated, at least when it came down to who he fought and defeated. If anything is over-rated about Ali, it would be his over all skills. He was bad infighter, could be set up for shots, but Ali's mind games, speed and ability to absorb punishment more than made up the difference.

So really it levels it all off. Was he invincible? No. I believe even at his best, which can be argued, I believe there are a few past champions who could have either beaten him or would have gave him one helluva fight.

Anybody can be defeated, Ali lost 5 times. Three times when he was over the hill, and twice when he was in his prime or near his prime. Then of course there are the 'gift' decisions over Young and possibly against Norton, as some believe Norton beat him at least two out of the three fights.

He wasn't perfect, but he wasn't too far behind it as a fighter.

I agree with most of that, though I think he was pretty much done by Norton III and Young. I think Ali was an okay inside fighter, he stopped Frazier in an inside fight. How many pure boxers could do that? I don't think Holmes could have beaten Frazier that way.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 11 Apr 2007, 14:52

As far as Holmes goes, I always considered Larry to have the better jab. Ali's jab was great, but in my opinion, Holmes had the edge in that department.

A Holmes-Ali (prime vs prime) fight would have been a boxing fanatic's wet dream; both men could take punishment (Holmes could get up off the floor to win, as could Ali), Holmes couldn't be psyched out; there's really alot of things to consider on that one.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Apr 2007, 15:01

HomicideHenry wrote:As far as Holmes goes, I always considered Larry to have the better jab. Ali's jab was great, but in my opinion, Holmes had the edge in that department.

A Holmes-Ali (prime vs prime) fight would have been a boxing fanatic's wet dream; both men could take punishment (Holmes could get up off the floor to win, as could Ali), Holmes couldn't be psyched out; there's really alot of things to consider on that one.

I just mean that I don't think other great boxers could have beaten Frazier the way Ali did. Holmes might out box Frazier, but he wouldn't be able to beat Frazier toe to toe the way Ali did. I was talking more about inside fighting.

I do think Ali would beat Holmes, but great, great fight... I think it would be pretty close. I agree they were both great jabbers, but Holmes had a stiffer jab.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 11 Apr 2007, 15:14

Myself I never quite held the 'Thrilla in Manila' as highly as some men have. Both men were on the verge of their downsides, Ali no longer boxed and moved around, this was evident during the Lyle fight, with the effectiveness that he had, and Frazier was all but legally blind in both his eyes.

It was a tremendous fight, but I believe it was mostly because, of all the men Ali ever faced, Frazier (due to his style) was the hardest man for him to fight. Frazier constantly stayed on Ali, and I still stand firm, that had Frazier's corner allowed him to go out for the next round, Ali would have lost by kayo or would have been floored.

Ali himself said "Frazier quite just before I did."

I hold the first fight to be the best of the two men, Ali despite being gone 3yrs had still maintained alot of his speed and was nearer to his prime than at any stage in his career and beaten Quarry rather easily and knocked out Bonavena who gave Frazier fits in two fights that went the distance, and Frazier was at his peak and he beat Ali.

Ali had a great chin, but it wasn't impregnable. Frazier dropped him, as did Shavers, as did Cooper. Ali's greatest gift was being able to improvise in almost any given situation---but due to Frazier's style, he had to fight blood and guts wars with him, cus Frazier took away the majority of Ali's assets.

That's why I believe a Dempsey/Marciano/Jefferies would have given Ali alot of trouble, if not beaten him.

As far as Holmes-Ali goes, I personally would say Holmes would win. There are but a few men I think who would have beaten Ali, who were tacticians: Holmes and Johnson.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 11 Apr 2007, 15:18

HomicideHenry wrote:Ali had a great chin, but it wasn't impregnable. Frazier dropped him, as did Shavers, as did Cooper.

Actually, Banks, Cooper, Frazier and Wepner. And the Wepner KD wasn't really a KD.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 11 Apr 2007, 15:23

Shavers drops Ali in the 2nd, or damn near does it, but Ali plays it off that he isn't hurt. He later admits had Shavers came after him, he would have been knocked out.

As far as the Wepner fight is concerned...stepping on someone's foot and punching at same time isn't a knock down =/ least in my book.

I forgot Sonny Banks, so thanks John L

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Apr 2007, 15:33

I think Ali-Frazier III is a legit fight, but again, I'm just saying that I don't believe that Holmes could beat Frazier in a toe to toe fight. Regardless of anything else. I don't think he could have ever beaten Frazier that way. That was my main point.

I think it's speculation as to whether or not Ali would have quit. Dundee and Pacheco have no doubt he would have come out. He would have won a decision even with a knock down to my understanding, and Frazier was probably in no shape to knock him down to begin with, he was throwing only arm punches after the 12th round.

I don't think Ali-Frazier I can be said to be any more legit than Ali-Frazier III. The rust was still there.

Shavers didn't knock Ali down, but I agree Ali was good at improvising, but had trouble making adjustments with Frazier. Frazier was one of the best pressure fighters in boxing history, and I think that despite popular opinion Frazier was probably more technically skilled than Ali was... he would keep his hands up, would cut off the ring, would go to the body. Ali had to beat him on pure caution in the 2nd fight and pure will in the 3rd.

I don't see Marciano or Dempsey beating Ali, or too many other Heavyweights like Louis or Foreman or Holmes or Holyfield, etc. for that matter. JMO. I can't say for Jeffries, since the only film I've seen of him was against Johnson, where he had badly declined.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Apr 2007, 15:39

Yeah, in regards to Ali's knock downs... Clay was real young when he got knocked down from that perfect left from Banks. Any 21 year old would have also gone down from that Cooper left hook. Any fighter period would have gone down after a 15 round war from a left hook like Frazier landed. And Shavers was Shavers, Holmes went down from one huge Shavers right... Ali took like 5 and didn't go down.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 11 Apr 2007, 15:45

HomicideHenry wrote:Shavers drops Ali in the 2nd, or damn near does it, but Ali plays it off that he isn't hurt. He later admits had Shavers came after him, he would have been knocked out.

As far as the Wepner fight is concerned...stepping on someone's foot and punching at same time isn't a knock down =/ least in my book.

I forgot Sonny Banks, so thanks John L

I think Shavers had him hurt several times, but Ali kept upright mostly due to Shavers rather passive offense. Wasn’t there some type of experiment with open scoring during that fight, at least open to the TV viewers? I seem to recall some controversy due to Ali’s corner checking on the scoring between rounds, and Ali fighting just enough to squeak by in many of the rounds as he was coached about the scoring. Anybody else remember something like that?

You are correct that the Wepner KD wasn’t really a KD, but it’s in the books that way.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Apr 2007, 15:50

The Great John L wrote:
HomicideHenry wrote:Shavers drops Ali in the 2nd, or damn near does it, but Ali plays it off that he isn't hurt. He later admits had Shavers came after him, he would have been knocked out.

As far as the Wepner fight is concerned...stepping on someone's foot and punching at same time isn't a knock down =/ least in my book.

I forgot Sonny Banks, so thanks John L
I think Shavers had him hurt several times, but Ali kept upright mostly due to Shavers rather passive offense. Wasn’t there some type of experiment with open scoring during that fight, at least open to the TV viewers? I seem to recall some controversy due to Ali’s corner checking on the scoring between rounds, and Ali fighting just enough to squeak by in many of the rounds as he was coached about the scoring. Anybody else remember something like that?

You are correct that the Wepner KD wasn’t really a KD, but it’s in the books that way.

Yes, that's right. Ali knew he was ahead going into the last few rounds. I personally thought Shavers won that fight, though that was Ali in 77... Ali just a couple of years earlier would probably stop Shavers, as he almost did in the last (great) round of their actual fight.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 11 Apr 2007, 15:50

I do know that the fight was a split decision. I believe Ali won two of the three score cards. And Ali was really the only man hurt in that fight. I think Shavers aggressiveness (hurting Ali) was what made it so close.

From what I understood, Ali would more or less paw away until the 'cobwebs' cleared from his head, and then he would throw flurries until he was caught by another shot from Shavers. Had Shavers went ahead with his attack in the 2nd, he would have knocked Ali out. He just believed Ali was pretending to be hurt and stayed on the defensive.

I reckon Shavers had no chance after the 5th, because it was a known liability on Shaver's part, if someone could go passed the 5th they had one helluva chance cus Earnie didn't have much stamina.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Apr 2007, 16:01

Well again, it was an old Ali, so anything is possible. But Ali was not the only one hurt in the fight, Shavers was almost out in the 15th.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 11 Apr 2007, 16:03

yeah but like i said, that was more than likely due to Shavers lack of stamina and endurance. He could hit like a mother, but he just wasn't the conditioning type.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Apr 2007, 16:06

HomicideHenry wrote:yeah but like i said, that was more than likely due to Shavers lack of stamina and endurance. He could hit like a mother, but he just wasn't the conditioning type.

No, he was legitimately hurt by a left hook. But I agree, he was lacking in the stamina department, and the chin department for that matter. But he may have been the biggest puncher in Heavyweight history.

hebrew_hammer · Post by **hebrew_hammer** » 11 Apr 2007, 16:07

Though stamina surely played a part, Shavers was definitely hurt in the 15th. IMO ten more seconds and he would have been KO'd.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 11 Apr 2007, 16:12

I Feel Fine wrote:
HomicideHenry wrote:yeah but like i said, that was more than likely due to Shavers lack of stamina and endurance. He could hit like a mother, but he just wasn't the conditioning type.
No, he was legitimately hurt by a left hook. But I agree, he was lacking in the stamina department, and the chin department for that matter. But he may have been the biggest puncher in Heavyweight history.

Actually, I don’t think there was anything wrong with Shavers chin. While he was KOd in 1 by Quarry, he was hit by dozens of shots from a hard puncher before he went down. Most of his other KOs were late in fights when he was exhausted. In fact, I think he had a pretty good chin.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Apr 2007, 16:15

The Great John L wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:
HomicideHenry wrote:yeah but like i said, that was more than likely due to Shavers lack of stamina and endurance. He could hit like a mother, but he just wasn't the conditioning type.
No, he was legitimately hurt by a left hook. But I agree, he was lacking in the stamina department, and the chin department for that matter. But he may have been the biggest puncher in Heavyweight history.
Actually, I don’t think there was anything wrong with Shavers chin. While he was KOd in 1 by Quarry, he was hit by dozens of shots from a hard puncher before he went down. Most of his other KOs were late in fights when he was exhausted. In fact, I think he had a pretty good chin.

I dunno. I suppose you could make that case. I thought he could have continued in the second Holmes fight from what I can remember. Quarry had to hit him a lot to get that 1st round stoppage. Ali hurt him with that left hook, but he did recover. You might be right. He was old when Cobb stopped him, and that was more fatigue.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 11 Apr 2007, 16:27

The stoppage was more from a cut, in the Cobb fight. Plus Earnie was fighting like half blind from a torn retina. But I reckon he must have been still ranked somewhat high, because he was originally to face Gerry Cooney who was ranked #1 by the WBC.

Cobb I don't believe ever hurt Shavers too much, as he was more of an arm puncher, didn't put any weight behind his blows. Earnie just couldn't see too good.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Apr 2007, 16:37

I haven't seen the fight in years, but I recall Shavers taking a lot of punches and that having an effect on him, more than any one punch. Cobb was a very weak, sloppy puncher, but he hit Shavers a lot. Either way, I agree that Shavers was not stopped because of a bad chin in that fight, which was what I was trying to say. I'm sure you're right that he was cut, I don't really remember.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 11 Apr 2007, 23:32

Apparently Ferdie Pacheco, the doctor in Ali's corner, thought Ali was "hurt" in the Shavers fight.

Of course what does he know, he was only there in the corner, and a medical doctor.

He demanded that Ali retire immediately after the Shavers fight,

and refused to appear in Ali's corner again.

He said he could not in good conscience have anything to do with Ali fighting any further.
____________________________________________________

Every time Shavers hurt Ali he did not follow up.

(He had one eye on the muslims in Ali's corner).

The result was far more brain damage for Ali than if Shavers had just knocked him out.

Ali took round after round of a severe head beating from Shavers because of Shavers' not following up when he had Ali hurt.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 12 Apr 2007, 19:44

granberry wrote:Apparently Ferdie Pacheco, the doctor in Ali's corner, thought Ali was "hurt" in the Shavers fight.

Of course what does he know, he was only there in the corner, and a medical doctor.

He demanded that Ali retire immediately after the Shavers fight,

and refused to appear in Ali's corner again.

He said he could not in good conscience have anything to do with Ali fighting any further.
____________________________________________________

Every time Shavers hurt Ali he did not follow up.

(He had one eye on the muslims in Ali's corner).

The result was far more brain damage for Ali than if Shavers had just knocked him out.

Ali took round after round of a severe head beating from Shavers because of Shavers' not following up when he had Ali hurt.

Let's not rewrite history....did you read Shaver's book? Seems to me he might possibly know a thing or two about the events of that day. But apparently not as much as you seem to know.

BERNARD BRIGGS. · Post by **BERNARD BRIGGS.** » 12 Apr 2007, 23:12

Ali's defining moment was the first fight between himself and Frazier. Two undefeated heavyweight champions. And he lost. Fullstop. End of story. No rhetoric no bullshit.