Sonny's Fist

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 01 Apr 2007, 18:46

granberry wrote:
The Great John L wrote:
granberry wrote:
He can't explain.
You really should stay to arguments u have a chance of winning. Oh that's right, there aren't any that you are capable of winning...
Ignorance of Liston is a prerequisite for being a member of the Ali industry.

Repeat your Ali industry mantras, John L.

I'm still waiting for you to explain why exacty Liston lost to Ali. First you said the mob ordered him to lose, then you said he was visited by the black muslims. Which is it?

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 01 Apr 2007, 18:55

A mob of black muslims?

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 03 Apr 2007, 16:12

There is an interesting photo published in the book,THE DEVIL AND SONNY LISTON,where Liston is comaring his clenched fist with President Lyndon Johnson at the White House(U.S.A)
President Johnson was a big man too(a rancher from TEXAS)a real rancher,not a poser,he was about 6 foot 3 inches tall.
As a matter of fact there is a story when Richard Nixon became president and took a shower in the White House,the force of the water pressure almost blew him out the shower stall!

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 09 Apr 2007, 14:12

Decagon wrote:
I want you to explain how a supposedly "slow" fighter could throw a punch as quickly as Liston threw the jab. In the history of boxing, there has never been as quick and powerful a step-in jab as Liston threw. It's a very difficult punch to master because it involves moving the entire body, but Liston threw it as fast as most fighters would throw a regular jab. Liston excelled at step-in punches that many boxers avoid simply because they are much harder to land quickly than stationary punches.

Liston didn't have empty speed like Hector Camacho or Muhammad Ali, where the punch lands more to score and keep the other fighter off than to punish; Liston threw every punch with bad intentions. You can't compare his speed to that of Muhammad Ali since they threw different types of punches. It's better to compare his speed with that of similar fighters, like Rocky Marciano, Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis. He wasn't Mike Tyson, but his speed was the equal of the greatest fighters to ever use the power style.

Great post.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Apr 2007, 17:33

granberry wrote:Doug Jones'
Jimmy Young's.

A lot happened inbetween those two fights... it's easy to criticize a fighter before and after their best years... and Doug Jones did not have faster hands than Ali...

Liston wasn't too slow, but a lot of HW champions were faster. He was probably close to Foreman in the speed department.

Liston had to have custom made gloves to my understanding, because his fists were so big. I think he had the biggest fists of any Heavyweight champion. His reach was what was really amazing, he was 6'1" with an 84" reach... his arms were like telephone poles...

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 11 Apr 2007, 17:36

I think Carnera actually held the record for the largest hands. They were almost 16" around...but since Valuev is now the tallest and heaviest champion (though no undisputed) who knows how big his fists are.

I do know Liston had to wear like 20 ounce gloves when he was in training, as well as his sparring partners wearing chest protection, because everybody went on about how hard Liston could hit.

Whether the big gloves helped or not, since they are only made for hand protection, not so much for 'cushioning' blows, is speculative. But I do remember that being said.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Apr 2007, 17:41

HomicideHenry wrote:I think Carnera actually held the record for the largest hands. They were almost 16" around...but since Valuev is now the tallest and heaviest champion (though no undisputed) who knows how big his fists are.

I do know Liston had to wear like 20 ounce gloves when he was in training, as well as his sparring partners wearing chest protection, because everybody went on about how hard Liston could hit.

Whether the big gloves helped or not, since they are only made for hand protection, not so much for 'cushioning' blows, is speculative. But I do remember that being said.

I was just looking at ibhof.com after I posted that, they have a Heavyweight Champion tale of the tape... they have Carnera's first at 14 1/2 and Liston's at 15... according to them he had the biggest fists of any HW champ. I wouldn't be surprised if Valuev had bigger fists, but he's not a real champion anyway... lol

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 11 Apr 2007, 17:45

Iono according to the older Guinness Books they list Carnera's fists as being 15 and three quarter inches.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Apr 2007, 17:48

HomicideHenry wrote:Iono according to the older Guinness Books they list Carnera's fists as being 15 and three quarter inches.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised either way, I'm sure it was either Liston or Carnera. Still amazing though, as Carnera was 6'5" or 6'6" and Liston was 6'1".

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 11 Apr 2007, 17:53

Carnera was 6'5 and three quarters. Think they said his reach was 85 and three quarters, and his neck was 18 or 19".

Some people are really funny built. Tommy Burns was only 5'7" and had a reach that was 74" or 75", myself I am 5'10" with a 72" reach. Marciano was 5'11" with a 67" reach.

It's odd sometimes.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 12 Apr 2007, 02:19

Decagon wrote: Does anyone have a source other than the IBHOF website? You know, a good source?

Ouch...

Try boxrec itself, I suppose. Looking at it now they have him at just that, 5'7" with a 74 1/2" reach.

IBHOF has the same measurments for Burns that boxrec has, btw

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 12 Apr 2007, 02:34

Wont be good enough for old Decagon, believe you me. There is some discrepancies in the records. Not all the fighters have completed records, and the site doesnt have really in depth information.

So...really I imagine it takes some digging around to find Tommy Burns exact figures, though I do know, if you look at his pictures, he did have rather long arms compared to the rest of his body.

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 12 Apr 2007, 13:10

Funny how granberry seems completely blind to the fact that his anti-Ali rants are just as one-sided and biased as the pro-Ali ("half-witted Ali shills", was the way ex-poster Terap, a.k.a. granberry v1.0, used to put it) bias he accuses others of. Let's do a little table-turning exercise to illustrate:

granberry wrote:Collins' repeated posting of the tired talking points from the tiresome Ali industry demonstrates a "mentality" below the functioning level.

Turn tables, get: "granberry's repeated posting of the tired talking points from the tiresome anti-Ali industry demonstrates a "mentality" below the functioning level."

See how easy it is? Let's try another one:

granberry wrote:Collins stated positively that the "bookies" and "tipsters" all thought the Liston-Ali "fights" were on the level.

Prove it.

You can't.

Ooh, a devastating riposte, isn't it? Well, not really, because it's immediately followed by granberry himself making the very same kind of dubious, unsupported assertion he just ripped collins for:

The word was out for days before the second fake to bet on Liston to lose in the first round.

OK, granberry, let's hold you to the same high evidential standard you apply to others:

Prove it.

You can't.

You, my friend, are a classic one-note poster, the forum equivalent of a single-issue political candidate. It's gotten rather tiresome - may I politely suggest you either try to work some new material into your stale stand-up routine, or (failing that) take your tired act to a circus sideshow somewhere?

HomicideHenry wrote:I think Carnera actually held the record for the largest hands. They were almost 16" around...but since Valuev is now the tallest and heaviest champion (though no undisputed) who knows how big his fists are.

Valuev actually shows signs of pituitary giantism, so in some sense it's not really a fair comparison, since in that case you're talking about pathologically enlarged bone structure - think Andre the Giant.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 12 Apr 2007, 14:31

Decagon wrote:A good source would be something that wasn't written 100 years after he started fighting.

No, I don't consider ibhof a great source, but I don't know where else to find a fighter's fist size... ibhof's other measurements for fighters like Louis and Marciano Ali and Lewis and Tyson seemed ok... I wasn't claiming that ibhof is a definitive source...

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 12 Apr 2007, 15:03

Decagon wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:
Decagon wrote:A good source would be something that wasn't written 100 years after he started fighting.
No, I don't consider ibhof a great source, but I don't know where else to find a fighter's fist size... ibhof's other measurements for fighters like Louis and Marciano Ali and Lewis and Tyson seemed ok... I wasn't claiming that ibhof is a definitive source...
Microfilm. Where do you live? Near a major library?

Yeah, close enough I suppose.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 12 Apr 2007, 15:35

Cool, sounds good. Maybe I will do that one day. I don't live near Detroit, but the library is reasonably close. Thanks.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 12 Apr 2007, 16:53

Valuev actually shows signs of pituitary giantism, so in some sense it's not really a fair comparison, since in that case you're talking about pathologically enlarged bone structure - think Andre the Giant.

Knowing a bit of endocrinology myself, I agree with that assesment. But it does raise some questions. If he does have this pituitary disorder, which does seem he does (acromegalic features, excessive height) how in the hell is he able to continue fighting?

Most of these people with acromegaly/gigantism usually have heart defects and end up dying in their 40's. They have bad circulation and of course, pituitary tumor.

He should be evaluated by a doctor that isn't in Don King's wallet. For his own safety, if anything else.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 12 Apr 2007, 17:36

Yeah but didn't Paul Wight have an operation to stop his growth? Andre didn't have that, and he died when he was 46 years old. When these people do not seek treatment, they are going to more than likely die in their 40's or early 50's. Some of which have died in their 20's and 30's.

Really the oldest 'giants' I have ever seen was, Martin Van Buren Bates who traveled with P.T. Barnum was he was 7'2" and died in his 70's, and one Johahn K. Petrussen "The Icelandic Giant" who was 7'7" who was a star of Barum and Bailey's and also appeared in numerous B-rated nudie monster movies. He too died in his 70's.

The only other giant I know who passed into his 70's is Richard Kiel, who played Jaws in the James Bond films. But most of these guys are lucky if they make it into their 40's and 50's.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 12 Apr 2007, 17:42

Oh and btw, there is two examples that I can think of, where there have been these pituitary giants who tried to box but ended up banned by commissions or even died before they even had the chance to even fight:

Jim Culley: Was banned from fighting after losing in his American debut. He was supposedly the Irish HW champion, standing some 7'4" in height, and was also a wrestling champion.

Ted Evans: Was a giant around 7'6" and his 'managers' in the circus thought it would make a big bunch of money if they had him become a boxer. There is a picture of him doing roadwork on the net, but before he even got to fight, he ended up dying of what else, heart failure, which is so common in giants.

and then there was some other giant, I forget his name at the moment, and he was over 7'5" I think, based out of Florida. But had to retire due to his giantism getting too out of control, he became violently ill.

I also remember wrestler Jorge Gonzales aka Giant Gonzales aka El Gigante, who was 7'7". He's now confined to a wheel chair, due to his condition.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 12 Apr 2007, 23:02

I think I found his boxrec record. He fought from 1985-1986, and came from Columbia, but his last fight was in Florida. I believe what happened was that he was always 'sick' and when the Florida commission saw that he had a bad heart murmur he was denied to fight any more.

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=175526

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 13 Apr 2007, 01:07

HomicideHenry wrote:
Valuev actually shows signs of pituitary giantism, so in some sense it's not really a fair comparison, since in that case you're talking about pathologically enlarged bone structure - think Andre the Giant.
Knowing a bit of endocrinology myself, I agree with that assesment. But it does raise some questions. If he does have this pituitary disorder, which does seem he does (acromegalic features, excessive height) how in the hell is he able to continue fighting?

Most of these people with acromegaly/gigantism usually have heart defects and end up dying in their 40's. They have bad circulation and of course, pituitary tumor.

He should be evaluated by a doctor that isn't in Don King's wallet. For his own safety, if anything else.

How does their heart survive a boxer's training regimen?

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 13 Apr 2007, 01:44

Andre The Giant was actually 6'10" himself, but still had acromegaly. It's not so much size, but having the disease it's self. If I recall Hollywood actor Rondo Hatton, famous for playing the 'Hoxton Creeper' in three Universal films (The Peral of Death, House of Horrors and The Brute Man) had acromegaly and was average size.

Here's something up your alley Dec, there was a wrestler named THE FRENCH ANGEL, who also suffered from acromegaly, he was just a 5' nothing really, was also a circus strongman. He died in his 40's or 50's as well.

Over time, if the problem isn't corrected, the heart weakens, as well as the immune system. Robert Wadlow, who was nearly 9' in height, didn't die from just a foot infection. He died because his body grew and kept growing, and couldn't fight off the infection like a normal person.

That's why Gheorge Muresan retired from the NBA, because of the same disorder.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 13 Apr 2007, 02:09

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:M_Tillet.jpg

^^^picture of Maurice Tillet "The French Angel", if you look at the elongation of the face, particuarly the jaw, nose, cheek bones and the forehead. You can see the very same features in that of Nicolai Valuev.

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 13 Apr 2007, 10:13

HomicideHenry wrote:Most of these people with acromegaly/gigantism usually have heart defects and end up dying in their 40's. They have bad circulation and of course, pituitary tumor.

Another symptom of acromegaly is suffering from osteoarthritis, most commonly of the knees. You might notice that these days Valuev is wearing knee-braces, something he wasn't doing earlier in his career. That's another potential career-ender.

Cojimar 1945 · Post by **Cojimar 1945** » 13 Apr 2007, 12:37

Some reported stats seem to be incorrect. Carnera's height is given as 6'6 1/2 in newspaper articles with tale of the tape stats which would make him taller than Willard.

Sonny's Fist

Sonny Liston

Carnera