Holy Shit - Warren wants to make Macca v RJJ

DG. · Post by **DG.** » 16 Apr 2007, 13:37

Twinkle Toes wrote:Roy Jones would beat Macca? - Lay of the weed DG.

Jones is finished at world level, fighting a feisty hard hitting cruiserweight would not be good for his health.

Swaby stopped him., Scott rocked him, he is chinny, he beat MARK HOBSON on a split decision.

RJJ beats him.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 16 Apr 2007, 14:51

Its a misconception that Jones never had a chin, Toney hit him plenty in there fight, Ruiz tagged him with a pretty big right hand, Hopkins landed some good shots.

Enzos looked good so far, but against who? He hasn't been in with anyone remotely world class.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 16 Apr 2007, 15:15

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Its a misconception that Jones never had a chin, Toney hit him plenty in there fight, Ruiz tagged him with a pretty big right hand, Hopkins landed some good shots.

Enzos looked good so far, but against who? He hasn't been in with anyone remotely world class.

I didnt see that, a weight drained Toney hardly got off with anything against Jones....

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Apr 2007, 05:05

Me either, Toney hardly laid a glove on Jones Jr, neither did Hopkins in his fight, and neither did anyone else really before the first Tarver fight. Clinton Woods had a go, but all he hit was arms and shoulders and the occasional body shot got through.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 17 Apr 2007, 07:40

There were times when both Toney and BHOPs landed plenty of shots - not haymakers but good shots that RJJ took. Its pretty ignorant to assume any boxer can go a career without getting hit - even RJJ. Afterall Hopkins won 4 rounds against RJJ, Griffin won a load of rounds, Ruiz landed a peach of a right hand early that was surely harder than Tarvers straight left. That punch hurt Roy but he took it.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Apr 2007, 07:43

Jones junior was riding out the effects of the shots landed him in those days, he never took the full force of a massive shot. Look at how he got twatted by Johnson and Tarver, both of them were shots he didn't see at all, the radar was gone by then.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 17 Apr 2007, 10:03

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:There were times when both Toney and BHOPs landed plenty of shots - not haymakers but good shots that RJJ took. Its pretty ignorant to assume any boxer can go a career without getting hit - even RJJ. Afterall Hopkins won 4 rounds against RJJ, Griffin won a load of rounds, Ruiz landed a peach of a right hand early that was surely harder than Tarvers straight left. That punch hurt Roy but he took it.

Try watching the fights and then tell me when Jones was hit cleanly by more than a punch here or there.... obviously he was hit at times, but Jones was very seldom hit solidly on the chin... Jones negativeity at his prime was a clue that he avoided taking punches for a reason...

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 17 Apr 2007, 10:05

SRL once commented that he heard he didn't catch well when RJJ was still an amatuer.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 17 Apr 2007, 10:47

Jones always had the look of someone not wanting to get hit... even against very ordinary opposition when you would have thought he'd go all out.... boxers also seldom lose their chins overnight... Jones lost his ability to avoid and ride shots.....

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Apr 2007, 10:53

apparently, at least according to boxintalk, Jones Jr says he will fight Calzaghe for 40%. He's trying to undercut Kessler and Taylor.

I really hope this fight doesn't happen, I couldn't bear to hear this being hyped up as a megafight.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 17 Apr 2007, 11:25

He said yesterday 60-40 winner takes 60.

Which is ludicrous in terms of the favourite in the fight but almost plausible considering their respective renown.

I'd actually like to see Calzaghe v Jones, because I dont think Calzaghe has the power to deck him with a single shot and that may increase Jones' competitiveness if the key factors are hand-speed, accuracy and stamina.

I'd still back Calzaghe but from Jones' perspective it's the least dangerous fight out there.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Apr 2007, 11:31

Well Glen Johnson isn't exactly a world reknowned knockout artist, but he absolutely flattened Jones. I take your point though, he's less likely to get knocked spark out by Joe than most opponents at 175, but I think it would be an awful fight with a hideously negative Jones just being bashed around the ring and poking the odd counter out.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 17 Apr 2007, 11:46

I think Jones would probably take a worse beating against Calzaghe than against Enzo... Enzo would probably spark him in 2 or 3 rounds while Joe would batter him around the ring and probably stop him in about 8 rounds... either way it wouldnt be pretty... I wouldnt put it past Warren to try and dress up any bout with Jones as a mega fight, while in reality either of these matchups have depressing and possibly dangerous ramifications... Jones just wont admit to himself that he's totally shot...

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 17 Apr 2007, 12:09

Jones Jr may not have had a great "chin" as it turns out, but what he did have was super human conditioning. It's going to be very difficult to hurt a fast guy who has that kind of crazy conditioning level. It serves as a bubble of protection. He clearly fucked himself up coming back down to 175. The conditioning level was vastly reduced, protection is gone.

If you look at Jones he still does the same things at the same speed, he can just only do it in rare flashes now. His body will never again reach the level of pre 2003. There was a 20 second period in the Tarver rubber match where Jones showed exactly how he'd have obliterated Tarver in his prime. For a brief, magical few moments he rolled back the years and took the piss out of Tarver with hard blistering uppercuts off the ropes. But his body wouldn't let him fight at that pace. He's worn out. Mortal, and vulnerable.

Look at Mayweather - same thing so far. He can box and fight intense for 12 rounds. Rarely is he ever hurt, but I doubt he has a better "chin" respectively than Jones.

Either way I don't like the idea that someone like Maccarineli could try and gain significant stature by beating a smaller and largely faded legend. It's a piss take for real boxing fans.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 17 Apr 2007, 12:20

Mayweather has a better defence than Jones did and doesnt depend so much on running away... I'd say that he probably has a pretty solid chin. Mayweathers decline coincided with a mysterious drug test that he failed and which was then hushed up... who knows whether all that speed was really his??.... I've certainly never seen a boxer lose their speed, stamina, reflexes and resistance overnight quite like Jones did...

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 17 Apr 2007, 12:22

Great post, Kilburn.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 17 Apr 2007, 12:33

jamesmcdonnell wrote:apparently, at least according to boxintalk, Jones Jr says he will fight Calzaghe for 40%. He's trying to undercut Kessler and Taylor.

I really hope this fight doesn't happen, I couldn't bear to hear this being hyped up as a megafight.

I hope NEGOTIATIONS don't happen. Jones Jr will come up with some ludicrous last minute demand - and everyone will get burned. Warren would end up bringing a Will McIntyre level fighter as last min replacement and it'd be a mega-disaster.

Roy had a panic attack about fighting Anthony Hanshaw on a Gary Shaw promotion, asking for triple money. Then he takes on the promotion himself and calls out Calzaghe...The man is seriously deluded. He got his own way with HBO so much that he has no comprehension of negotiating with rival camps.

I think that's why Warren suggested RJJ fights Enzo.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 17 Apr 2007, 12:52

silkov wrote:Mayweather has a better defence than Jones did and doesnt depend so much on running away... I'd say that he probably has a pretty solid chin. Jones's decline coincided with a mysterious drug test that he failed and which was then hushed up... who knows whether all that speed was really his??.... I've certainly never seen a boxer lose their speed, stamina, reflexes and resistance overnight quite like Jones did...

Mayweather did plenty of running last time out. Even his prime-Jones-like conditioning level cannot allow him to stay in the zone against strong welterweights.

Jones didn't "lose his speed and reflexes over night", he lost the ability to train himself to the heights of fitness that he once could. It looked like he hurt himself massively to make light-heavyweight again for the first Tarver fight. He was never the same fighter. Perhaps drugs did play a part in the decline somewhere. But if you can't train as hard, you can't produce the same standard on the night. For a boxer like Jones that includeds avoiding punches as well as throwing them. And it was certainly a cause for alarm for many to see the drop in punch output for Tarver 1.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 17 Apr 2007, 13:02

Terry D wrote:he was a better athlete than boxer and it is showing in his current form

So are you saying that now Jones is 38, seemingly burnt out and at the end of his career, we are seeing the real Roy Jones as a boxer?

Surely a large part of being a great boxer is to be a great athlete??

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Apr 2007, 13:19

Final Fight wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:apparently, at least according to boxintalk, Jones Jr says he will fight Calzaghe for 40%. He's trying to undercut Kessler and Taylor.

I really hope this fight doesn't happen, I couldn't bear to hear this being hyped up as a megafight.
I hope NEGOTIATIONS don't happen. Jones Jr will come up with some ludicrous last minute demand - and everyone will get burned. Warren would end up bringing a Will McIntyre level fighter as last min replacement and it'd be a mega-disaster.

Roy had a panic attack about fighting Anthony Hanshaw on a Gary Shaw promotion, asking for triple money. Then he takes on the promotion himself and calls out Calzaghe...The man is seriously deluded. He got his own way with HBO so much that he has no comprehension of negotiating with rival camps.

I think that's why Warren suggested RJJ fights Enzo.

I honestly don't think we will see Roy fight again. I think virtually every fight is going to be too risky for him without a reward that he simply isn't going to get.

Any elite level fighter facing Jones now, is going to get some serious stick, and rightly so, for taking on a badly faded and very vulnerable fighter, so why are they going to pay him a small fortune?

Jones thinks he is still a legend, but in truth he was never really that popular with your average boxing fan, and it was the networks and boxing pundits who really salivated over his career more than anyone who actually paid to see him fight.

Great fighter in his prime, but it's over Roy, just call it a day.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 17 Apr 2007, 13:23

You could be right. He's been sacked from HBO, fvcked off his new promoter DiBela AND Showtime...he can call ppl out till he's 50. The Germans might want him, but I doubt it.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 17 Apr 2007, 17:04

silkov wrote:Mayweather has a better defence than Jones did and doesnt depend so much on running away... I'd say that he probably has a pretty solid chin. Mayweathers decline coincided with a mysterious drug test that he failed and which was then hushed up... who knows whether all that speed was really his??.... I've certainly never seen a boxer lose their speed, stamina, reflexes and resistance overnight quite like Jones did...

Richard Hall failed the test aswell and he fought like a crab.

I know what you are saying and I'm not saying your out of order for saying (far from it). However, people forget that Roy Jones is 37/38. He didn't fight like a 33/34 year old, but when he started to lose he was at an age where everything can go overnight.

Anyway, I do think we are completely writing off Roy a little prematurely.... I thought he looked okay vs Ajamu, obviously not what he was... but I think he looked at least competitive at world level again - something he wasn't vs Johnson. I'd probably tip that RJJ over Erdei - whose solid, but doesn't have the punch or a particularly great work rate.

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 18 Apr 2007, 09:12

Jones Jr. talks of being an entertainer. Constant showboating during his reign make that difficult to dispute. It may also have brought about a dangerous ego edema.
He needs to accept - if not digest - that there was a visibly depleted air to his 'show' against Ajamu. A hit musical tapering off: gone were the top critic, or Hauser; gone was the prime media rights, or HBO; downgraded was the chief support, or Ajamu; solid but with dimmed flash was the performance from the star, or Jones. And Boise was no Broadway, or Vegas.
Winning comebacks ahoy, but that cosmic mien showed organic resources of time and momentum are gone. In other words, his bolt's shot. And there's no viagra in boxing.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 18 Apr 2007, 10:14

Jones could have played ball, got a Showtime date, a green super middleweight foe up at light heavy (Hanshaw) and a fight with Jermain Taylor -probably up at 175. All I can say is he threw it away and is becoming a bit of a head case.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Apr 2007, 11:55

Terry D wrote:
Kilburn wrote:
Terry D wrote:he was a better athlete than boxer and it is showing in his current form
So are you saying that now Jones is 38, seemingly burnt out and at the end of his career, we are seeing the real Roy Jones as a boxer?

Surely a large part of being a great boxer is to be a great athlete??
No, we saw it at the age of 35. Jones never really had the type of fights that burn you out. His reflexes and hand and foot speed went and revealed a serious lack of fundamentals.

James Toney is old also, he has had more ring-wear and he stuck around at heavyweight yet he managed to avoid getting nailed to the canvas. Imagine Jones fighting a Peter type straight after Ruiz.

You need athletic gifts to be a great boxer yet to be truly great you could do with being able to box when physically you are on the wane. Jones could not adapt and hardly blocks or parries. His sole defence when not skirting around the ring, as he did in Tarver III, is to cover on the ropes and get caught.

Jones had great fundamentals offensively, he had a great jab when he elected to use it, but more often than not he used his speed to circumvent the fundamentals, much like Ali did.

However, what Jones didn't have was any kind of defence, save for movement and his reflexes. Ali, when he was past his best, still fought on at top level for several years, by utlising his savvy when his legs weren't really there any more. Jones however, wasn't that savvy, merely gifted, and when his gifts tarnished just that little bit, the game was up. As soon as he slowed that little bit, it was enough for a relatively mediocre fighter like Tarver to spark him out.