Buchanan top ten all-time Lightweight??

GAV · Post by **GAV** » 29 Sep 2003, 15:52

I'm just finishing reading through his autobiography, and although he may be biased towards himself, he does make an impression. He seems convinced that he had Duran ready to go after the 13th.

I remember The Ring had an article charting the top twenty lightweights of all time but i have forgotten where Buchanan was placed.

So in your opinion was he worthy of being mentioned in the top ten lightweights of all time?

I think yes, but then again i'm biased.

So what do you think?

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 29 Sep 2003, 16:47

Don't believe him in what he says about the Duran fight. His real gripe is with the unsatisfactory way he lost his title and the fact Duran never gave him a rematch - not that he was going to come back and beat Duran. There was no indication the challenger was slowing.
But, as to your question, I would have him in the lower echelons of the top 10 for sure. It's difficult to place him any higher because his reign was short and he did lose to Guts Ishimatu in a second attempt to win a version of the world lightweight title. But his performances in New York rightly earn him a place in the top ten. The lightweight division has always boasted a fabulous range of champions. My top ten would look something like this.

1) Roberto Duran
2) Benny Leonard
3) Ike Williams
4) Joe Gans
5) Pernell Whitaker
6) Joe Brown
7) Alexis Arguello (would be higher but soon moved up to light-welter)
8) Ken Buchanan
9) Carlos Ortiz
10) Freddie Welsh

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 29 Sep 2003, 18:01

bennie wrote:Don't believe him in what he says about the Duran fight. His real gripe is with the unsatisfactory way he lost his title and the fact Duran never gave him a rematch - not that he was going to come back and beat Duran. There was no indication the challenger was slowing.
But, as to your question, I would have him in the lower echelons of the top 10 for sure. It's difficult to place him any higher because his reign was short and he did lose to Guts Ishimatu in a second attempt to win a version of the world lightweight title. But his performances in New York rightly earn him a place in the top ten. The lightweight division has always boasted a fabulous range of champions. My top ten would look something like this.

1) Roberto Duran
2) Benny Leonard
3) Ike Williams
4) Joe Gans
5) Pernell Whitaker
6) Joe Brown
7) Alexis Arguello (would be higher but soon moved up to light-welter)
8) Ken Buchanan
9) Carlos Ortiz
10) Freddie Welsh

Doesn't quite make the ten for me.

I think Julio Ceasar Chavez and Lou Ambers should be ranked above him at least.

He's on a par with Estaban Dejesus (who was a fantastic fighter).

Quite how Dejesus vs Duran 1 wasn't a title fight is beyond me. Perhaps Bennie will inform us.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 29 Sep 2003, 19:50

Definately makes the ten for me, he was stopped on a clear low blow by Duran and that is what grieves him, he lives in Glasgow still and apparently had to go back to decorating to make ends meet a short while back. A sad scenario for a great fighter.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 29 Sep 2003, 20:02

stujones wrote:
bennie wrote:Don't believe him in what he says about the Duran fight. His real gripe is with the unsatisfactory way he lost his title and the fact Duran never gave him a rematch - not that he was going to come back and beat Duran. There was no indication the challenger was slowing.
But, as to your question, I would have him in the lower echelons of the top 10 for sure. It's difficult to place him any higher because his reign was short and he did lose to Guts Ishimatu in a second attempt to win a version of the world lightweight title. But his performances in New York rightly earn him a place in the top ten. The lightweight division has always boasted a fabulous range of champions. My top ten would look something like this.

1) Roberto Duran
2) Benny Leonard
3) Ike Williams
4) Joe Gans
5) Pernell Whitaker
6) Joe Brown
7) Alexis Arguello (would be higher but soon moved up to light-welter)
8) Ken Buchanan
9) Carlos Ortiz
10) Freddie Welsh
Doesn't quite make the ten for me.

I think Julio Ceasar Chavez and Lou Ambers should be ranked above him at least.

He's on a par with Estaban Dejesus (who was a fantastic fighter).

Quite how Dejesus vs Duran 1 wasn't a title fight is beyond me. Perhaps Bennie will inform us.

Duran was a throwback fighter in that - even as world champion - he liked to get in shape for his title defences by actually fighting in the build-up to those defences, as opposed to spending several weeks in the gym. He was thus never in the best of shape in those non-title fights and vulnerable to a really good opponent, such as De Jesus, Edwin Viruet and our own Kirkland Laing (who was Duran's warm-up to a huge money-spinning showdown with Tony Ayala, till Kirk beat Duran of course). I do seem to remember the Duran-De Jesus fight being drafted on to the Madison Square Garden bill quite late after a big fight fell through. And Duran claimed he had the flu. The fact is he got his arse kicked by a better fighter on the night, though Duran would subsequently prove himself by far the better man. In the third fight, he outboxed and outpunched the gifted Puerto Rican

Agree with what you say about Chavez, Ambers and Esteban De Jesus. I wouldn't argue with those guys above Buchanan because they were great fighters too, though I didn't stick Chavez in there as I believe he only made one defence of his WBA lightweight title (compared to nine at super-feather) before moving up to light-welter, where he really peaked in my opinion.
And Lou Ambers was held up by Henry Armstrong when losing his lightweight title (Lou begged Henry not to knock him out, and Henry obliged). In their obligatory rematch, Armstrong would have won easily had the referee not docked him several rounds for alleged low blows. Ambers was very well 'in' with the mob who governed boxing back then (unofficially).
And, unlike Buchanan, Esteban De Jesus had the luxury of challenging Guts Ishimatu in his home country of Puerto Rico (they must have paid Guts a fortune to leave Japan for that one). Esteban won clearly on points.
Buchanan's win in Puerto Rico against Ismael Laguna was probably the best "away" performance ever given by a British fighter (Laguna wasn't shot like Jose Napoles was against John H. Stracey in Mexcico City, nor weight-weakened like Don Curry against Honeyghan; and the Jap Wayne McCullough beat for the bantamweight title in the 90's was no Laguna).
Ken then defended in Los Angeles (the same venue where Johnny Owen died) against Ruben Navarro, who was no slouch believe me. Ken romped home to a unanimous decision. Then came another win over Laguna, this time in MSG. Even to take a young Duran 13 rounds is a fabulous achievement in hindsight, and there's no doubt Ken would have gone the full 15 rounds but for the low blow ending (but he would have lost on points of course).
Harry Mullan always said Ken Buchanan was the greatest British fighter of all time for his ability to go away from home and deliver the goods. We saw how hard that is in the Damaen Kelly fight over the weekend.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 30 Sep 2003, 05:05

Bennie/Gav - I thought the very same thing watching Kelly the other night. I'm 3/4 through Buchanans book too (although it's easy reading I don't get much chance) and what impresses me most is all those victories on foreign soil. Ricky Hatton could do with giving this book the once over!

Ken does make a compelling case that he was shafted against Duran, never having seen the fight either I'll reserve judgement.

GAV · Post by **GAV** » 30 Sep 2003, 12:56

steve689 wrote:Definately makes the ten for me, he was stopped on a clear low blow by Duran and that is what grieves him, he lives in Glasgow still and apparently had to go back to decorating to make ends meet a short while back. A sad scenario for a great fighter.

He never turned to decorating. He is a fully qualified joiner. Joinery is what he went back to after his ring career.

He makes a good point though during a half hour documentary programme i have on tape. He said people felt sorry for him when he went back to being a joiner because they feel joinery is beneath him. If he was a lawyer by trade and had that to fall back on he said no one would have mentioned it. They make the fuss because it joinery. He then goes on to say he never felt like this because he has always felt at home and enjoyed working on the tools.

Finished reading that book now "The Tartan Legend" and he has gained even more of my respect now.

What a great fighter and a great man.

tolstoy · Post by **tolstoy** » 02 Oct 2003, 08:27

Yes, that documentary broadcast on BBC Scotland was excellent but far too short. It was also touching to hear of Buchanan talk of his late mother and the effect her death had on him.

Roberto Duran was in Glasgow at the end of last month as part of a tour of the UK and although I knew he was coming I couldn't find any publicity about it at all. Makes me angry that Beckham or Zeta-Jones would be mobbed by adoring crowds and a man like that can come and go from my city unnoticed.

Anyway, whether he meant it or whether he didn't, Duran said something to the effect that Buchanan was the toughest fighter he has ever faced. A true compliment from the best lightweight ever to grace the ring. :)

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 02 Oct 2003, 10:49

Apologies Gav, just a little wayward on my facts there mate, i have full respect for Ken he was a great champ.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 02 Oct 2003, 11:34

There's no doubt Ken was down on his luck for a long while. I believe he lived in a bedsit in Glasgow. It's almost uncanny how much Alex Arthur resembles him. He could be his son.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 02 Oct 2003, 11:36

Is that a photo of Jim Jeffries in farmer's garb?

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 02 Oct 2003, 11:37

TerribleTerry wrote:Is that a photo of Jim Jeffries in farmer's garb?

It is indeed. Good call.