Muhammad Ali vs. Joe Louis

[ceboxer15]

I know this has probably been done over a thousand times, but who cares, here it is:


Name: Muhammad Ali
Alias: The Greatest
Stance: Orthodox
Height: 6' 3
Reach: 80''
Trainer: Angelo Dundee
Manager: Herbert Muhammad
Career Record: W 56 (KO's 37) l L 5 l D 0 l Total 61

Notable Fights:
1. fought Sonny Liston (W 50 (KOs 39) l L 4 l D 0 l Total 54 [One-Time Heavyweight Champion]) twice (1964 [W RTD 7], 1965 [W KO 1]. It was in the first fight where he won his first Heavyweight Championship.
2. fought Floyd Patterson (W 55 (KOs 40) l L 8 l D 1 l Total 64 [Two-Time Heavyweight Champion]) twice (1965 [W TKO 12], 1972 [W TKO 7])
3. fought Joe Frazier (W 32 (KOs 27) l L 4 l D 1 l Total 37 [One-Time Heavyweight Champion]) three times (1971 [L UD 15], 1974 [W UD 12], 1975 [W RTD 15])
4. fought Ken Norton (W 42 (KOs 33) l L 7 l D 1 l Total 50 [One-Time Heavyweight Champion) three times (1973 [L SD 12], 1973 [W SD 12], 1976 [W UD 15])
5. George Foreman (W 76 (KOs 69) l L 5 l D 0 l Total 81 [Two-Time Heavyweight Champion]) (1974 [W KO 8]). It was in this fight where he won his second Heavyweight Championship.
6. fought Leon Spinks (W 26 (KOs 14) l L 17 l D 3 l Total 46 [One-Time Heavyweight Champion]) twice (1978 [L SD 15], 1978 [W UD 15]). It was in the second fight where he won his third Heavyweight Championship, and became the first man to do so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD99VbFzqAg

Analysis:
Muhammad Ali was an excellent boxer who posessed speed in both legs and hands, a stinging left jab (one of the best in the business), great defense, and although not a power puncher, he's scored quite a bit of KO's with his stinging combinations. He also had a strong chin and alot of heart. It was with these skills that he became a Three-Time Heavyweight Champion.


Name: Joe Louis
Alias: The Brown Bomber
Stance: Orthodox
Height: 6' 2
Reach: 76''
Trainers: Jack Blackburn, Mannie Seamon
Managers: Julian Black, John Roxborough
Career Record: W 69 (55 ko's) | L 3 | D 0 | Total 72

Notable Fights:
1. Max Baer (W 71 (53 ko's) | L 13 | D 0 | Total 84 [One-Time Heavyweight Champion] (1935 [W KO 4])
2. fought Max Schmeling (W 56 (40 ko's) | L 10 | D 4 | Total 70 [One-Time Heavyweight Champion] twice (1936 [L KO 12], 1938 [W KO 1])
3. Jack Sharkey (W 37 (13 ko's) | L 13 | D 3 | Total 55 [One-Time Heavyweight Champion]) (1936 [W KO 3])
4. Jim Braddock (W 46 (26 ko's) | L 24 | D 4 | Total 86 [One-Time Heavyweight Champion]) (1937 [W KO 8]) It was in this fight that he became the Heavywight Champion of the World.
5. fought Billy Conn (W 64 (15 ko's) | L 12 | D 1 | Total 77) twice (1941 [W KO 13], 1946 [W KO 8])
6. fought Jersey Joe Walcott (W 51 (32 ko's) | L 18 | D 2 | Total 71 [One-Time Heavyweight Champion] twice (1947 [W SD 15], 1948 [W KO 11])
7. Ezzard Charles (W 89 (50 ko's) | L 25 | D 1 | Total 115 [One-Time Heavyweight Champion]) (1950 [L UD 15])
8. Rocky Marciano (W 49 (43 ko's) | L 0 | D 0 | Total 49 [One-Time Heavywieght Champion]) (1951 [L KO 8])

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5eTQfNkHI4

Analysis:
Joe Louis was great fighter. he was a reallly technical fighter in the ring. He posessed power, speed, and great defense. He also had a decent chin, but alot of heart. It's with these skills that he became a One-Time Heavyweight Champion of the World.

The Fight (15 Rounds to determine who's the Greatest Heavyweight of All Time!):

Round 1:
Ali comes out dancing and circling the ring flicking out his left jab. Louis is being the stalker as he follows Ali around the ring. Ali lands his great stining jab to Louis' face. Now Ali lands a great 1-2 combo, but Louis comes back with a great combo of his own, that backed Ali into the ropes. Now they're clitching, but the ref breaks it up. Now Ali is back to dancing around the ring, scoring well with his jab. Louis is now trying to get his jab out there, but it's difficult with the speed of Muhammad Ali. Ali now lands a left hook to Louis head. Now Louis comes back with a great combo to the head and body, throwing some really hard shots. There's the bell ending Round 1.

Score: 10-9: Ali

Round 2:
Ali comes out once again circling the ring throwing out his left jab. Now Ali lands a nice combo to the haed and body. Now Louis comes with a hard left hook to the head of Ali, that has him stunned. Louis has him against the ropes, landing some hard shots, but Ali escapes from the ropes and lands some good clean punches to the face of Louis. Louis is still trying to be the stalker following Ali around the ring. There's the bell ending Round 2

Score: 10-9: Ali

Round 3:
Louis comes out his corner, now he's circling the ring, trying to get his jab in there and does, now he lands a nice 1-2 combo. Ali clinches, the ref breaks it up, now Ali is back in command, throwing some combo's of his own. Ali is still landing some great combos. There's the bell ending Round 3.

Score: 10-9: Ali

Round 4:
Ali once again is circling the ring, landing his jab, trying to set up his punches. Louis lands a left hand body shot, that stops Ali for a second, but he goes back to landing combinations to the head and body of Louis. Louis lands a good 1-2 combo to the head of Ali, and tries to follow up with the left hook, but misses. There's the bell ending Round 4.

Score: 10-9: Ali

Round 5:
Ali comes out dancing around once again. Louis lands a couple of good body shots. Now Ali is landing his jab once again, trying to cut off the ring. Louis is still being the stalker, landing his combo's on several occasions, easier said than done, with the speed of Ali. Louis gets in a good right hand to the head. Ali now....Oh a hard 1-2 combo and LOUIS IS DOWN!!! The ref is counting: 1...2...3...4...5. Louis gets up at 5, stunned. Ali is now moving in fast trying to end it, Louis is trying to cover up and move. Ali landing alot of shots. Louis is trying to survive. And he does, as the bell rings ending Round 5.

Score: 10-8: Ali

Round 6:
Louis has some puffiness over his right eye, but nothing major. Ali is trying to finish it. He's throwing great combos. He has Louis hurt again. Louis is against the ropes, Ali is hard. Louis escapes from the trying to get in this fight. Now Ali has Louis cornered, Ali ripping shots to the body. there's the bell rings ending Round 6.

Score: 10-9: Ali

Round 7:
Ali comes out of his corner, a little rubbery legged, as he's trying to get in this fight. Louis is still trying to outbox Ali with combos, and is doing, landing his jab well, and throwing some hard shots to the head and body. Oh, what a right uppercut by Muhammad Ali, that stunned Louis, now Ali is back in command, throwing hard shots everywhere on Louis, who's in some trouble now. There's the bell ending Round 7.

Score: 10-9: Ali

[ceboxer15]

Round 8:
Ali comes out circling the ring, and using the looking to create openings. Ali still flicking that jab, Ali lands a nice 1-2 combo. Louis comes back with a hard shot of his own, that stunned Ali! Louis now...Oh, a hard overhand right to the head and now ALI IS DOWN!!! The ref is counting: 1...2...3. Ali gets up stunned. Now Louis is in command, going fast trying to end it, and now Ali is trying to survive. And he does, as the bell rings ending Round 8.

Score: 10-8: Louis

Round 9:
Louis' left eye is still kind of puffy, but it looks to be under control. Ali comes out dancing arund, but his legs appear to be still a little rubbery. Ali is now landing the jab. Ali just landed a double jab along with a right hand that connected well. Louis comes back with a double hook off his left jab, great combination! Ali is a little stunned by that, as Louis comes back with another combo and a hard left hook off that combo. There's the bell ending round 9.

Score: 10-9: Louis

Round 10:
Wow...what a turn around in this fight. Now Louis is coming out circling the ring, and Ali is being the stalker, keeping his hands up, instead of low as usual. Louis is now using his speed well, as he lands the jab followed by a right hand. Ali tries landing the left hook, but Louis blocks it, and counters with a left hook of his own. There's the bell ending Round 10.

Score: 10-9: Louis

Round 11:
Once again, Louis is being the boxer and Ali is being the stalker. Once Louis is landing combinations, trying to outbox Ali using his great technical skills. Ali comes back with a couple of jabs and a straight right hand. Louis now lands a left to body and comes back with another left to the head. There's the ebll ending Round 11.

Score: 10-9: Louis

Round 12:
Now Ali is back to circling the ring, trying to keep Louis out of range with his left hand lead. Ali lands a 1-2 combo. Now Louis comes back with a left hook-right hand combo to the head, that backs Ali into a corner. Ali is trying to cover up, as Louis is landing hard shots to the body, hurting Ali. There's the bell ending Round 12.

Score: 10-9: Louis

Round 13:
We are now in the championship rounds, as Round 13 begins. Both men are now cut, Louis has a cut above the right eye, and Ali has a cut above the left eye. Ali is once again trying to circle the ring, but his legs have lost speed, he was using in the earlier rounds. Louis is once again using the jab, being patience, looking to create openings. Louis lands a good 1-2 combo to the body, and a left hook upstairs. There's the bell ending Round 13.

Score: 10-9: Louis

Round 14:
Ali comes out dancing around, he lands the left jab, followed by a left hook. Louis comes back with a combo of his own. Ali just landed a 1-2 to the head. Louis comes back with a big overhand right, followed by a left hook that hurt Ali! Ali is up against the ropes. Louis is landing shot after shot, trying to end it here. Ali survives the beating as the rings ending Round 14.

Score: 10-9: Louis

Round 15:
Alright, this is the 15th and final round. What a war we've had here, this was one hell of a fight. This fight is dead even. Both men are bloody and battered, they look like they've been in a war. Both men are now trying to go for the knockout, as each come out swinging at each other, throwing hard shots! What a fight! Ali throws a series of hooks and uppercuts. Louis comes back with a combo of his own. Oh, they both throw a hard shot at the same time, they're both hurt! Ali throws a hard shot....Louis throws a hard shot....Ali throws another hard shot....Now Louis throws a hard shot, and turns it into a hard body combo and he ahs Ali hurt! Forget technique, this is a street fight, it's a question of who wants it most. There's the bell ending a fantastic fight.

Score: 10-9: Louis

The Judges score cards are in, we have a Split-Decision....Judge #1 scores the bout 143-141 in favor of LOUIS...Judge #2 scores the bout 143-142 in favor of ALI...and Judge #3 scores the bout 143-142...for the winner by Split-Decision....and the Greatest Heavyweight of All-Time........."THE BROWN BOMBER" JOE LOUIS!

Side Note: I also believe these two would fight each other three more times. If that was the case, I think they would've ended up like this:
Fight #2: Muhammad wins by SD.
Fight #3: Draw
Fight #4: First of all this would be more than just a war, it would be a masscure of a fight! I think Joe Louis wins this one by SD.

well, guys how did I do? Just so you know, this the first time, I've ever actually, written out a fight, so please bare with me, if looks messed. Aside from that though, who do you think wins this fight?

[pundit]

Styles make fights, and stylewise the blistering quick, elusive, counterpunching Ali of the 1960s is not a good style matchup for Louis. Lewis had trouble adjusting to the slick guys -- Walcott, Conn, Godoy. There is little or nothing to chose between Louis and Ali in terms of achievements -- undoubtedly they are the greatest heavyweights of all time -- but head to head and prime for prime (say, 1966 vs. 1938) I would lean towards prime Ali.

[dempseyfire]

Styles make fights, and stylewise the blistering quick, elusive, counterpunching Ali of the 1960s is not a good style matchup for Louis. Lewis had trouble adjusting to the slick guys -- Walcott, Conn, Godoy. There is little or nothing to chose between Louis and Ali in terms of achievements -- undoubtedly they are the greatest heavyweights of all time -- but head to head and prime for prime (say, 1966 vs. 1938) I would lean towards prime Ali.

Godoy was slick???

Walcott and Conn were entirely different fighters than Ali.

I do think Ali would give Louis a lot of issues with his footspeed (as he would everyone) but Louis's precision punching ability would gradually wear Ali down and set him up for a knockout loss sometime after the 6th.

[pundit]

Styles make fights, and stylewise the blistering quick, elusive, counterpunching Ali of the 1960s is not a good style matchup for Louis. Lewis had trouble adjusting to the slick guys -- Walcott, Conn, Godoy. There is little or nothing to chose between Louis and Ali in terms of achievements -- undoubtedly they are the greatest heavyweights of all time -- but head to head and prime for prime (say, 1966 vs. 1938) I would lean towards prime Ali.

Godoy was slick???

Well, at least evasive and hard to hit cleanly.

[Friedie]

@ceboxer15

Joe Louis defeated another former Champion, Primo Carnera!

[I Feel Fine]

I don't really wanna get into this again, but I think Ali by decision is the most likely outcome and frankly, though anythings possible, Louis by knock out is very wishful thinking.

[Seamus]

60's Ali would stick and move to a clear decision win. Kinshasa Ali KO's Louis on the best night of his life inside of 6 rounds.

[dempseyfire]

60's Ali would stick and move to a clear decision win. Kinshasa Ali KO's Louis on the best night of his life inside of 6 rounds.

If Ali tried to rope a dope Louis he would've been seriously battered.

[Seamus]

Ali could take Louis' battering, afterall he took numerous shots from Foreman, Shavers, Frazier, Lyle etc.

[pundit]

Ali could take Louis' battering, afterall he took numerous shots from Foreman, Shavers, Frazier, Lyle etc.

Louis hit as hard and far more accurately and with better timing than all of these guys.

I agree with dempseyfire: rope-a-dope with prime Louis -- bad idea. It didn't even work with a post-prime Frazier (in the thrilla).

[I Feel Fine]

Louis hit as hard and far more accurately and with better timing than all of these guys.

Thinking back over the last debate we had about this... it occurred to me, rather belatedly, that... yeah, Louis is more accurate and has better combinations than any of Ali's opponents... and Ali had better accuracy and combinations than any of Louis' opponents. So how is this a huge advantage for Louis and not for Ali? Especially when Ali has the reach and the handspeed.

[Marciano Frazier]

Louis hit as hard and far more accurately and with better timing than all of these guys.

Thinking back over the last debate we had about this... it occurred to me, rather belatedly, that... yeah, Louis is more accurate and has better combinations than any of Ali's opponents... and Ali had better accuracy and combinations than any of Louis' opponents. So how is this a huge advantage for Louis and not for Ali? Especially when Ali has the reach and the handspeed.

Actually, I think Conn had as good of accuracy and combinations and Ali, and Walcott was probably more accurate than Ali, although not really much of a combination puncher.

[jezzamundo]

I think it really depends on which Ali you consider to be prime, the end of his first career, or the years leading up to the Foreman fight.

I agree that Louis is better than anyone Ali fought, but Ali is a lot better than anyone Louis fought. To be totally honest, I find it difficult to think of anyone KOing Ali in his prime.

I personally think that a young Ali would have won a clear decision over Louis, whereas an older Ali would have taken a lot more punches, and possibly sneaked, or lost a close decision.

[JC]

I think it really depends on which Ali you consider to be prime, the end of his first career, or the years leading up to the Foreman fight.

I agree that Louis is better than anyone Ali fought, but Ali is a lot better than anyone Louis fought. To be totally honest, I find it difficult to think of anyone KOing Ali in his prime.

Therein lies the problem with most mythical prime for prime match-ups, there's not really a frame of reference as two truly great heavyweights have rarely ever faced each other while in their respective primes. People often also seem to imagine prime for prime match-ups taking place in some kind of vacuum free from external factors such as bad preparation and training injuries etc.

[dempseyfire]

Louis hit as hard and far more accurately and with better timing than all of these guys.

Thinking back over the last debate we had about this... it occurred to me, rather belatedly, that... yeah, Louis is more accurate and has better combinations than any of Ali's opponents... and Ali had better accuracy and combinations than any of Louis' opponents. So how is this a huge advantage for Louis and not for Ali? Especially when Ali has the reach and the handspeed.

B/c Louis has KO power in both fists and Ali did not.

[walshb]

Ali may not have had Joes's reputation as a puncher, but when Ali planted his feet he could bang. Louis is too hittable and I see Clay being too fast and slick and Ali too tough. I think a peak Ali could TKO Louis.

[I Feel Fine]

Louis hit as hard and far more accurately and with better timing than all of these guys.

Thinking back over the last debate we had about this... it occurred to me, rather belatedly, that... yeah, Louis is more accurate and has better combinations than any of Ali's opponents... and Ali had better accuracy and combinations than any of Louis' opponents. So how is this a huge advantage for Louis and not for Ali? Especially when Ali has the reach and the handspeed.

Actually, I think Conn had as good of accuracy and combinations and Ali, and Walcott was probably more accurate than Ali, although not really much of a combination puncher.

Right... and look how well he did there... but I would say Ali's reach advantage and hand speed makes him a more dangerous combination puncher in that its harder to get around... its like the difference between a De La Hoya combination and a Hearns combination...

Dempsey... yeah, and Ali had a sturdier chin than Louis... and I'm sure Liston and Foreman thought Ali couldn't hurt them either as Louis did, and look how well that assumption worked out for them.... hitting power is not the be all and end all of who wins a fight, and this idea that someone like Louis who was down 9 times in his career is just going to walk through punches that he don't see coming from a fighter who is taller and 10-15 pounders heavier is not a great plan...