Elmer Ray Newspaper article,Ray deserves the win over turkey

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 27 Apr 2007, 13:16

"Minneapolis Tommy O'Loughlin, manager Heavyweight Elmer (Violent) Ray, charged today that his boy wasn't given a "break" in New York because the Florida Negro “punches hard enough to shatter Mike Jacobs' monopoly at maul.” A dapper, black-haired Irishman, Minneapolis Tommy is trying to talk his way into a shot at any of the so-called "name" heavyweights. If it works, he is certain that the explosive punches of the Violent One will force Uncle Mike to match the re-christened Elmer with the winner of the Louis-Conn bout this summer. Tommy, however, isn’t very confident.
“They don’t want a good heavyweight in New York who won’t take,” he said. "They want close matches which will call for rematches because Mike has a weekly radio contract for fight broadcasts and good fighters are scarce. But Ray goes out there and knocks them flat so fast that there is virtually no broadcast.” The handsome, fast-talking manager believes devoutly that if the one-time battle royal boy ever was given an opening he would march right through the ranks, including Louis.
All of which is a testimonial to O'Loughlin's managerial skill, for Ray was a gymnasium punching bag when Tommy picked him up. "I saw he could punch,” he said. "I'm partial to punchers, and Ray is one of the best ever." Elmer proved that a long time ago, in Florida's legal Battle Royals where 10 men are put in the ring and the winner takes all. Ray had a system that let him win 61 of those free-for-alls. In these bouts, the usual order is for the little guys to gang up on the biggest man and down the batting order in that manner. Elmer simply dropped to the floor when the bell sounded, crawled to a corner, placed his back against the ropes and took the whole gang as it came at him...
“They know Elmer was too good.” There must be something in what Minneapolis Tommy has to say, because his fighter has won his last 36 starts, chilling 33 of those customers inside the scheduled distance. “Ray will fight and beat anybody, even Joe Louis or Billy Conn.” He might, too, because anybody who will be live bait to an alligator isn't going to roll over and play dead, not even for Joltin’ Joe."
-Traverse City Record Eagle, March 11, 1946

"Elmer Ray not only knocks opponents stiff, but, at least so far as Tommy Is concerned, he scares them into the same state. Unable to induce top-rank heavyweights to fight him, Ray takes to jostling with alligators. when Violent Ray failed TO show up For hit Daily training stint. O'Loughlin instituted a frantic search for his fourth-ranking heavyweight. Tommy finally located his meal ticket at an alligator farm in The Everglades District. "Where is he?” demanded the distraught manager, barging into the Indian village. "Over there” replied The proprietor, pointing to a large pit. In the center, surrounded by a bevy of 12-foot animated satchels with gaping jaws and teeth the size of daggers, cavorted the potential heavyweight champion, wrestling, boxing, playing tag and generally having the time of his life with the 400-pound amphibians...
Revived, O'Loughlin found Ray standing over him. "Gosh," sputtered Tommy, "I just had The most horrible dream."
“'Twasn't no dream, replied the Violent One. "I was jus’ visitin' with some o' my ol' pals, the 'gators. Ah used to work heah. They eat right out of mah hand.” O'Loughlin grabbed his fighter and hustled him away from there.
The Hastings, Fla., Negro is having a tough time obtaining headline opponents, but his handling doesn't want him tackling 400-pound alligators. They may eat out of his hands, but Tommy O’Loughlin isn’t taking any chances."
-The Frederick Post, April 10, 1945

On the first Ray/Turkey Thompson fight-
"TURKEY THOMPSON still wore his crown today after a match with a tough Florldan named Elmer Rau, who punched his better known opponent around the ring for six rounds only to have Referee Lee Ramage stop the bout with a no decision after Ray had been fouled twice...
Ray had won all five rounds and was out in front in the sixth when he was hurt by a low blow and Ramage stopped the bout."
-Modesto Bee, August 10th, 1943
It seems this fight was a no contest as a result of Thompson resorting to fouls to bail himself out of trouble. Ray had been pitching a shut-out and may have been on his way to stopping Thompson when Thompson hit him with brutal low blows in the second and sixth rounds, and after the second one, Ray couldn't continue, which prompted the referee to stop the fight, and it was declared a NC. With a modern commission, this fight would almost certainly have been a DQ or Technical Decision win for Ray. A win over Turkey Thompson is certainly a nice mark on one's record, and Ray really should have had one here, even though he was inexperienced against that level of opponent and clearly hadn't reached his peak yet.
In the rematch, Thompson caught him cold and put him away with a barrage in round one. Ray campaigned for another return bout over the next couple years, but never received one.

On Ray/Walcott-
"In the fifth Ray uncorked a right to the jaw that sent Walcott half way across the ring, and only the ropes saved him from a knockdown."
-The New York Times, November 16, 1946
Walcott later told the press that Ray had hit him harder than Louis. You've often remarked that Ray failed to floor Walcott and Charles- officially, this is true, but as you can see, it isn't as though he was simply incapable of the task.

On Ray/Charles-
“Violent Ray Tips Charles In Close Bout
“The smart money screamed and the heavyweight powers smiled unctuously today but there was no joy in the heart of Elmer (Violent) Ray, a man with a mission who for the second time had met a spoiler. The gallery gods went into ranting hysterics last night when the burly negro who once wrestled alligators for a living smashed the myth which was Ezzard Charles. The boxing bigwigs, who had been grooming Charles for a fight with Joe Louis, laughed. Once more they had given Joe Louis, the heavyweight champion, an excuse to dodge the Violent One.
For from 10 rows back it looked like Charles all the way. He danced and jabbed and landed a lot on Ray's bobbing pate and Elmer's busy elbows. But inside 10 rows you could see the devastation wrought by Ray's jarring hooks, blasts which raised the sheaf of Ezzard's cheek. “No holding,” was the continual admonition of referee Eddie Joseph. But Ezzard, of the winged retreating feet, had to hold for his life, and in doing so he made of Elmer Ray a modern Sam Langford.
You remember the Boston Tar Baby. He was a guy heavyweight champion Jack Johnson dodged and dodged during the six years he held the title some three decades ago. Langford tried desperately to get a bout with the champ, but Johnson never would have a part of him.
Louis is that way with Ray. It’s silly to say that Louis, the man who has made so many valiant defenses of the crown, is afraid of Elmer. But it is a fact that he won’t fight the burley puncher from Hastings, Florida. "Yeah, I’m a Langford" Ray said as, absolutely unmarked, be sat in room after winning over Charles. "Charles, huh! He's good light heavyweight and fast, but he couldn’t knock my hat off. If Louis still refuses to meet me I’m going to hang up my gloves.”
-Middlesboro Daily News, July 26, 1947
"Referee Eddie Joseph and Judge George Lecron gave Ray the fight by a narrow margin; six rounds for Ray and four for Charles. However, Judge Marty Monroe Came up with the surprising ballot of eight rounds for Charles and only two for Ray. The United Press favored Ray, 5-4-1."
-Charleston Daily Mail, July 26, 1947
It seems this match wasn't the rip-off that the boxrec description makes it look like. More of a very close battle in which the scoring probably depended on stylistic preference(do you favor Ray's aggression and power-punching, or Charles' textbook boxing and accuracy?).

thanx to marcianofrazier

IMO elmer ray warrants a placement in the top 25 heavyweights of all time.
He was highly avoided by top contenders during his era(Which is why he couldnt get many big fights) and even joe louis camp was weary of fighting ray and spoke highly of him.

At one point he went something like on a 62-2 run with most of those Knockout victories, and i believe at one point he scored 25 straight knockouts. AMAZING!

Wins over ezzard charles, jersey joe walcott, turkey thompson(realistically), obie walker, otis thomas, leroy haynes, lee savold, sid peaks, kid riveria, perk daniels, buddy millard. solid resume.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 27 Apr 2007, 13:18

its so bullshit that they didnt count the turkey thompson fight as a W DQ 6 for elmer ray. ray beat the shit out of him, got fouled and they called it a no contest. this was a win for ray

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 27 Apr 2007, 13:31

Interesting stuff BB . . .thanks for posting it!

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 28 Apr 2007, 01:28

..nice indeed....although ring magazine though charles won big. still...give it to elmer...as did the judges who had the best seats..so fair is fair.

..now...any chance of finding a write up of the rematch? before rhe fight ray's manager said charles was a dirty fighter. (gus lesnevich said ezzard was the cleanest fighter he ever fought)....this fight came after the tragic baroudi one. the comments made ezzard very angry....so much so that he got into his pre-baroudi mode and beat the hell out of ther violent one before knocking him out.

..as i have pointed out previously, elmer got a little to aggressive in an exhibition match with joe louis and the bomber bombed him out flat. i'm not knocking ray...he was a good fighter.....but let's not put him a the top of the pantheon.

brockton buddy will no doubt point out that ray was past his prime against louis....but joe was no where near his own prime either.

Marciano Frazier · Post by **Marciano Frazier** » 28 Apr 2007, 17:08

Jaclem wrote:..nice indeed....although ring magazine though charles won big. still...give it to elmer...as did the judges who had the best seats..so fair is fair.

..now...any chance of finding a write up of the rematch? before rhe fight ray's manager said charles was a dirty fighter. (gus lesnevich said ezzard was the cleanest fighter he ever fought)....this fight came after the tragic baroudi one. the comments made ezzard very angry....so much so that he got into his pre-baroudi mode and beat the hell out of ther violent one before knocking him out.

I've seen an account or two of this fight... purportedly, Ray carried the match for the first six, but then tired badly(the accounts pinned it at least in part on his old age) as Charles turned up the heat and finally floored him hard with a right hand in the ninth, and Ray was on his hands and knees as the count reached 10.

..as i have pointed out previously, elmer got a little to aggressive in an exhibition match with joe louis and the bomber bombed him out flat. i'm not knocking ray...he was a good fighter.....but let's not put him a the top of the pantheon.

This was when Ray and Louis were both well over the hill, and was an exhibition match. I don't think it has much of anything to do with anything. An in at least one other exhibition match, Ray supposedly rocked Louis and fought him on even terms over six rounds.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 29 Apr 2007, 00:07

..ray "supposedly....blah blah blah..against louis." louis DID kayo ray. the fact that they were exhibitions is indeed significant, as the understanding was that louis would make them just that....unless his "opponent' decided to do otherwise,and then he'd klonk them to remind them who was whom. i've read..and heard..a lot about the second charles fight. my..elmer did age a lot since their first one, didn't he. ezzard had a tendency to start slow too much of the time and coast if he thought he was well ahead. it speaks highly of elmer that he was able to press charles enough to make him open up and turn it on, which is exactly what he did. there were worries in his camp before the fight that the baroudi tragedy would make ezzard hold back....though there's no indication that he was doing so early. just boxing smoothly. he was mad though, about the "dirty fighter" charges and that, plus some good work by ray caused him to open up.

look...again..i am not knocking elmer ray. he should have more recognition of his career best than he does... but he was no joe louis and a
prime, motivated charles were better.

you have my permission to think otherwise, and there is no need to thank me.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 29 Apr 2007, 00:46

good readin' here

Taylor · Post by **Taylor** » 29 Apr 2007, 10:40

Is Elmer still alive?...Wouldn't he be like 97 if he was?

Marciano Frazier · Post by **Marciano Frazier** » 29 Apr 2007, 13:22

Jaclem wrote:..ray "supposedly....blah blah blah..against louis." louis DID kayo ray. the fact that they were exhibitions is indeed significant, as the understanding was that louis would make them just that....unless his "opponent' decided to do otherwise,and then he'd klonk them to remind them who was whom.

Again, what would an exhibition match between the two in their late 30s have to do with an actual fight for the heavyweight title when they were in or near their primes? I would also estimate that Louis wasn't as washed up as Ray at this point, since Ray, who was probably older than Louis(his actual age is uncertain and I think the boxrec date is a guess- Ray himself couldn't remember exactly how old he was and different accounts give different ages), would shortly thereafter proceed to lose to Kid Riviera and John Holman in his final two professional bouts, while Louis was still quite successful for a couple more years afterwards. And as to the other exhibition I mentioned, here are some tidbits on it:
From the Traverse City Record Eagle, Jan. 29, 1949-
"Elmer (Violent) Ray, the former alligator wrestler from Hastings, was crowding back into tho heavyweight picture today as a result of an even-Steven six-round Exhibition with Joe Louis in Orange Bowl"

Louis, Ray Battle Toe-to-Toe in Wild Exhibition Fracas MIAMI, Heavyweight champion Joe Louis and Elmer Violent Ray fought a rough six-round grudge exhibition bout Tuesday night before an estimated spectators in the Orange Bowl stadium at Miami. Ray, obviously angered by Louis' statement that he didn't consider him a worthy opponent for a title fight, slugged toe-to-toe with the champion. Louis, who weighed 221 pounds for the bout, slugged back, but the 14-ounce gloves required for an Exhibition precluded any danger of a knockout. However, Ray raised several small welts on Louis' face.
Long Beach Independent- Wednesday, January 26, 1949

I would also note that Louis actually refused to fight exhibitions or even spar with Ray during his heyday-
Violent Ray has the extraordinary distinction of being The only man Joe Louis wouldn't even meet in an exhibition...Although the one-time alligator wrestler and battle royalist of Hastings, Florida has yet to be given a crack at a name fighter, the opposition has reason to suspect that he is much too formidable. Shouting from the roof tops, Manager Tommy o'Loughlin asks Louis to fulfill a contract entered into at the Chicago Stadium, Nov. 24, 1944...Louis boxed Dan Merritt of Cleveland instead, and stood watching as Ray, a crowding weaver and bobber with the speed of a swift middleweight, ironed out Claudio Villar, a Spaniard, in 29 seconds flat.
-Cochoston Tribune
Louis sometime back tabooed Ray as an opponent in a Chicago exhibition on the ground That "Elmer wouldn't know how to box an exhibition bout."
-Ames Daily Tribune
Louis said that Ray didn't know how to take it easy and that one of them would be likely to get hurt.

Now, again, I don't really consider any of this to provide solid evidence of what would happen in a real fight between these two. I wouldn't pick Ray to beat Louis at any time in their respective careers. Just pointing out that one guy knocking another out in one of their exhibitions is not too terribly relevant to an actual title fight, especially given the circumstances I just discussed.

i've read..and heard..a lot about the second charles fight. my..elmer did age a lot since their first one, didn't he. ezzard had a tendency to start slow too much of the time and coast if he thought he was well ahead. it speaks highly of elmer that he was able to press charles enough to make him open up and turn it on, which is exactly what he did. there were worries in his camp before the fight that the baroudi tragedy would make ezzard hold back....though there's no indication that he was doing so early. just boxing smoothly. he was mad though, about the "dirty fighter" charges and that, plus some good work by ray caused him to open up.

look...again..i am not knocking elmer ray. he should have more recognition of his career best than he does... but he was no joe louis and a prime, motivated charles were better.

you have my permission to think otherwise, and there is no need to thank me.

No, I've never meant to argue that Ray was a Joe Louis-level fighter or top all-time great. I ranked him #30 the last time I compiled a list. Charles was #15 and Louis #2.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 29 Apr 2007, 14:08

..rocky-joe...you state your case well and i respect it, and i'm glad you took advantage of my permission to do so.

i agree wholeheartedly that an exhibition is not "terribly" relevant. just relevant.

Marciano Frazier · Post by **Marciano Frazier** » 29 Apr 2007, 17:00

Taylor wrote:Is Elmer still alive?...Wouldn't he be like 97 if he was?

Well, boxrec lists no date of death for him, I've never seen nor heard of any reports of him dying, and have searched to no avail for any evidence of his death. When Rex Layne and Harry "Kid" Matthews died in the last few years, it was news in boxing circles. You would expect to be able to find it somewhere. From what I can tell, either his death went completely unnoticed by anyone or he's still around somewhere.

Does anyone here know anything about this?