10 Best P4P of all time

[TigerMoth]

Actually, I am not knowledgeable enough to create poll for this but hope someone with excellent knowledge of boxing will do one.

I just watched a tribute to Sugar Ray Robinson again. And, I was impressed as always. He seemed to have every asset. But, I am not sure what assets should be included in a poll.

Watching SRR, I was impressed with the fact that he had one punch knockout power in either hand, ability to take a punch, speed, movement, heart, determination, fitness (could fight 15 rounds at a high pace)....

In contrast, for example, Ali did not have one punch knockout power, Lennox Lewis did not have an Ali like ability to take a punch, Hagler had good powera and an excellent ability to take a punch but had average movement.

Anyway, the way I see this poll, which could be created by someone more knowlegeable than I am, is to have a list of these characteristics. Rate the top boxer of the past and present on a scale of 1 - 10 in each characteristic and adding the individual ratings, come up with a total score for each fighter. The 10 fighters with the highest scores would be rated as the top ten P4P.

Hope someone can make a post like this or similar.

Thanks

[TigerMoth]

[quote="Decagon"]Here's my list, with a few changes I'm thinking of:


I actually like this list more than most of my others.[/quote]

Looking at your list gives a good example of why I would like a poll that would show fighters characteristics. You listed Tommy Hearns as number 28 (if I recall correctly). He is one of my favorite fighters. He had great power and excellent jab and movement (when he chose to move). But, he did not have a great chin and I believe had questionable stamina. It is this type of information that I would love to see. It would show the strength and flaws of the best fighters.

[Minotauro]

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Roberto Duran
4. Sam Langford
5. Harry Greb
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Willie Pep
8. Joe Louis
9. Muhammad Ali
10. Joe Walcott (original, often left out on these lists)

Honourable mention: Benny Leonard, Joe Gans, Ray Leonard, Archie Moore, Eder Jofre and Sandy Saddler.

[KOJOE90]

Here's my list, with a few changes I'm thinking of:

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Sam Langford
5. Roberto Duran
6. Jimmy Wilde
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Muhammad Ali (too low)
9. Joe Louis
10. Benny Leonard
11. Ray Leonard
12. Eder Jofre
13. Willie Pep
14. Carlos Monzon
15. Archie Moore
16. Marvin Hagler
17. Sandy Saddler (too low)
18. Gene Tunney
19. Michael Spinks
20. Pernell Whitaker
21. Roy Jones, Jr. (maybe too high)
22. Jack Dempsey
23. Salvador Sanchez
24. Emile Griffith
25. Mickey Walker
26. Billy Conn
27. Alexis Arguello
28. Tommy Hearns
29. Bob Fitzsimmons
30. Bob Foster
31. Fighting Harada
32. Evander Holyfield
33. Sonny Liston
34. Rocky Marciano
35. Marcel Cerdan
36. Larry Holmes
37. Bernard Hopkins
38. Barney Ross
39. Pasquel Perez
40. Charley Burley
41. Julio Cesar Chavez
42. Joe Frazier
43. Tony Canzoneri
44. Jose Napoles
45. Lloyd Marshall
46. Joe Gans
47. Chang Jung Koo
48. Holman Williams
49. Tiger Flowers
50. Tommy Burns

I actually like this list more than most of my others.

Good list, and hard to ague with your choice of fighters. I keep meaning to have a go at one of these lists myself.

With respect to your list I may have Burley just slightly higher and find space for Jim Driscoll.

[dr_devious]

Good list Dec, my views

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Sam Langford
5. Roberto Duran
6. Jimmy Wilde - Agree up to here, just about
7. Ezzard Charles - Too high
8. Muhammad Ali (too low) - Yes, too low
9. Joe Louis
10. Benny Leonard
11. Ray Leonard
12. Eder Jofre
13. Willie Pep - too low
14. Carlos Monzon
15. Archie Moore
16. Marvin Hagler - too low
17. Sandy Saddler (too low) - no, about right
18. Gene Tunney
19. Michael Spinks - too high
20. Pernell Whitaker
21. Roy Jones, Jr. (maybe too high) - maybe not, fighter of the 90s
22. Jack Dempsey - too high
23. Salvador Sanchez
24. Emile Griffith
25. Mickey Walker
26. Billy Conn - dunno about this
27. Alexis Arguello
28. Tommy Hearns - definitely too low
29. Bob Fitzsimmons - maybe too low
30. Bob Foster
31. Fighting Harada
32. Evander Holyfield
33. Sonny Liston
34. Rocky Marciano - too high
35. Marcel Cerdan
36. Larry Holmes
37. Bernard Hopkins
38. Barney Ross - too low
39. Pasquel Perez
40. Charley Burley
41. Julio Cesar Chavez
42. Joe Frazier
43. Tony Canzoneri
44. Jose Napoles
45. Lloyd Marshall
46. Joe Gans
47. Chang Jung Koo
48. Holman Williams
49. Tiger Flowers
50. Tommy Burns - eh?

quote]

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Saddler was fornicating good, and he beat fornicating good fighters. I now rank him above Willie Pep at 126

i have pep as my # 1 fighter of all time, and rate him over sandy. pep was past his prime when he fought saddler. the only two fights that ended uncontroversially were fights 1 and fight 2 which the series was 1-1, no winner.

the 3rd and 4th fights were very controversial dirty fights in which pep was further declined yet pep was well ahead on the cards in both fights before he retired on his stool due to injuries......


i really only judge the first 2 pep saddler fights in which the series 1-1 and pep was past his prime too.


pep was also far more consistent than saddler starting off 135-1 and never losing to top featherweight contenders like saddler did

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

decagon, who exactley did burns beat outside of philadelpha jack o brien and marvin hart? burns pretty much beat crap oposition


fitz beat corbett, sharkey, ruhlin, maher, jack dempsey, choynski. who the fornicate did burns ever beat?

[pundit]

Here's my attempt:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Sam Langford
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Roberto Duran
6. Muhammad Ali
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Benny Leonard
9. Willie Pep
10. Sugar Ray Leonard

Just missed the cut: Joe Louis

[pundit]

Here's my list, with a few changes I'm thinking of:

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Sam Langford
5. Roberto Duran
6. Jimmy Wilde
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Muhammad Ali (too low)
9. Joe Louis
10. Benny Leonard
11. Ray Leonard
12. Eder Jofre
13. Willie Pep
14. Carlos Monzon
15. Archie Moore
16. Marvin Hagler
17. Sandy Saddler (too low)
18. Gene Tunney
19. Michael Spinks
20. Pernell Whitaker
21. Roy Jones, Jr. (maybe too high)
22. Jack Dempsey
23. Salvador Sanchez
24. Emile Griffith
25. Mickey Walker
26. Billy Conn
27. Alexis Arguello
28. Tommy Hearns
29. Bob Fitzsimmons
30. Bob Foster
31. Fighting Harada
32. Evander Holyfield
33. Sonny Liston
34. Rocky Marciano
35. Marcel Cerdan
36. Larry Holmes
37. Bernard Hopkins
38. Barney Ross
39. Pasquel Perez
40. Charley Burley
41. Julio Cesar Chavez
42. Joe Frazier
43. Tony Canzoneri
44. Jose Napoles
45. Lloyd Marshall
46. Joe Gans
47. Chang Jung Koo
48. Holman Williams
49. Tiger Flowers
50. Tommy Burns

I actually like this list more than most of my others.

Nice list. Amazingly, Chris Byrd didn't make this one.

[I Feel Fine]

My reactions to the above comments:

• I look at Charles and Spinks for what they did at light heavyweight (and middleweight for Charles); what they did at heavyweight is just icing on the cake. I will drop Spinks, however.
• About Muhammad Ali: Whenever someone asks me who the greatest fighter of all time is, I answer "Muhammad Ali." I've had him at #8 and Louis at #9 for six or seven years, and although I've learned a lot at that time, I haven't improved either man's ranking. I'm thinking of putting them at #3 and #7, respectively.
• Saddler was fucking good, and he beat fucking good fighters. I now rank him above Willie Pep at 126, and eventually, I have to bump him above Pep, pound-for-pound. I'm thinking of putting them at #12 and #13, respectively, behind Benny Leonard, even though I hate dropping Ray Leonard.
• Hagler's not going above Archie Moore or Carlos Monzon, not any time soon.
• Jones has been at around #21 on my list since before the Ruiz fight, and I'm inclined to keep him there until his career ends. Then, I'll be able to reshuffle him better.
• "Never let anyone tell you that Jack Dempsey couldn't box." - Gene Tunney For decades, he was considered the #1 fighter in the history of the sport, even pound-for-pound.
• Billy Conn was really a middleweight throughout his career. Believe it or not, Conn's KO loss to Joe Louis has nothing to do with my ranking of him. That fight simply should bring attention to the skills he displayed in his great fights.
• Tommy Hearns, unfortunately, was never a true champion outside of 154. He had a beautiful, nearly singular style that could have made him the best fighter ever, but in the end, he wasn't. Nearly everyone in my top 25 could arguably be in the top five or ten. Hearns couldn't.
• Bob Fitzsimmons was primitive. I HATE ranking him above Tommy Burns.
• Rocky Marciano's another fighter I've had pretty high on my pound-for-pound list for a long time. Perhaps he is too high, but I hold him in high regard - not for his unbeaten record - but because he was the first World Heavyweight Champion that took on all the top black heavyweights.
• I'm considering giving Burley a bump over Cerdan, who refused to fight him after watching Burley train.
• Barney Ross: I hate ranking him over Napoles, Marshall and all those other great fighters, but I do. I'm not going to give him a bump.
• Tommy Burns was a middleweight that beat the standing World Light Heavyweight Champion and World Heavyweight Champion. He was extraordinarily skilled for his time.
• Jem Driscol is VERY hard to rank because of the time he fought in. Driscol was great because Abe Attell was great, but I simply have too many questions about Attell.

Good points, and I like your list, but I'm curious, you don't consider Hearns a legit Light Heavyweight champion?

[The Durable Dane]

1.Sugar Ray Robinson
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Willie Pep
4.Henry Armstrong
5.Harry Greb
6.Roberto Duran
7.Joe Louis
8.Sugar Ray Leonard
9.Benny Leonard
10.Pernell Whitaker

[elmersalsa]

My top 50 pound per pound:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson: The best ever, no question about it.
2. Henry Armstrong: I do not have a problem if someone ranks him at #1. He must well be the best of all time
3. Muhammad Ali: No one has done much for the sport than this guy. In historical impact alone, he could be the greatest fighter ever, but he could not match Robinson's or Armstrong's achievements.
4. Joe Louis: Held the crown for 12 years and 25 title defenses. Record that still stands until this day.
5. Roberto Duran: The greatest fighter of the 1970s pound per pound. No lightweight come up close in terms of dominance. Won 4 world titles in 4 weight classes. The last 2 titles he won it being washed up.
6. Joe Gans: The greatest fighter of the beginning of the 19th century.
7. Willie Pep: No fighter or champion has won more fights than he did. The greatest featherweight and defensive master of all time.
8. Sam Langford: The greatest fighter that never won a world title. Could have been the greatest fighter if he would have won at least one world crown
9. Harry Greb: the greatest fighter of the 1920s decade. Fought over 300 fights and lost only 8.
10. Jack Johnson: The greatest heavyweight fighter of his time. The first black heavyweight champion that transcend boundaries in boxing.

11. Benny Leonard: Before Duran came into the scene, he was the best lightweight ever. Second to Greb as the best fighter of the decade.
12. Tony Canzoneri: One of the great little men of the 1930s decade. Oned of the main great fighters of The greatest non-heavyweight era of all time. Won 3 titles in 3 weight classes.
13. Ezzard Charles: Could have been in the top 10 if he would have won the middle and light heavy crowns. He never had the opportunity to fight for those titles. The greatest light heavyweight of all time
14. Jimmy Wilde: The greatest flyweight ever and the greatest fighter pound per pound of his time
15. Sugar Ray Leonard: Finesse and grace. One of the most skillful, talented and smart fighters of any era that could adapt and improvise to any opponent's style. The greatest fighter pound per pound of the 1980s
16. Rocky Marciano: The greatest heavyweight of the 1950s. Only fighter that retired undefeated without a loss or draw. Perfect record of 49-0 cannot be argued. Would have ranked higher if Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and Jersey Joe Walcott were in their primes when he beat them.
17. Pernell Whitaker: The greatest fighter pound per pound of the 1990s without question. Won 4 world titles in 4 different weight classes. A true master of the ring.
18. Carlos Monzon: The greatest middleweight of all time. One of the greatest champions in history. Did not lose in his last 81 bouts.
19. Archie Moore: Longetivity and durability. One of the most popular champions ever. Has the record of most recorded KOs in boxing history with 141KOs.
20. Jack Dempsey: The FIRST superstar of boxing. Transcended the sport in the roaring 20s

21. Marvin Hagler: Complete fighter with warrior mentality. Fought over 50 bouts before getting a title shot. Took all comers while champion and did not ducked andybody.
22. Julio Cesar Chavez: Went 87-0 in his prime. Won 3 titles in 3 different weight classes. Has the record of most bouts for a world title with 34.
23. Sandy Saddler: Lick Pep 3 out of 4 times in 4 brutal battles. Hard puncher, is one of the greatest KO artists of all time.
24. Alexis Arguello: Won 3 titles in 3 different weight classes. Never lost his title belts. Won 19 straight title fights, beating the very best of the 70s and early 80s
25. Stanley Ketchel: Tw-time middleweight world champion. One of the true and natural fighters ever. We never know how could have he been if not dead by age 23.
26. Eder Jofre: Considered by many as the greatest bantamweight ever. One of the most underrated fighters in history. Probably the most complete fighter of his era.
27 Barney Ross: Won 3 titles in 3 different weight classes.
28 Terry McGovern: Some say that he is a triple crown champ. I cannot prove that source watching his record. But at bantamweight and featherweight, was a monster of the beginning of the 19th century.
29. Evander Holyfield: The greatest cruiserweight ever. But is at heavyweight were he made his mark having his greatest victories. The greatest heavyweight of his time in the 1990s. 4-time heavyweight champion
30. Mickey Walker: The greatest middleweight of the 1930s. Won 2 crowns in 2 weight classes. Have a reputation in fighting bigger men.

31. Ike Williams: Te greatest lightweight of the 1940s...Perhaps the greatest lightweight era of all time...Beat the very best lightweights and some great welterweights.
32. Emile Griffith: The greatest welterweight of his time that beat probably the greatest crop of welterweights of any era. Won 5 crowns in 2 different weight classes.
33. Gene Tunney: Beat Jack Dempsey and Harry Greb twice. A thinking man's fighter that beat the best lightheavys and heavys of his time.
34. Kid Gavilan: Fought the very best welterweights of his time. The best welterweight of the 1950s. Colorful fighter that is one the most influential fighters in history.
35. Panama Al Brown: A true world champion that fought in 16 countries all over the world and has the record of most fights without being KO'd with 169 bouts wihtout counting the non decisions. Held the bantam crown for 7 years and made 11 title defenses. The greatest bantamweight of his time.
36. Kid Chocolate: Boxing machine that was undefeated in his first 55 contests. Won 2 world titles in 2 different weight classes.
37. Pascual Perez: Flyweight dynamo that started as a pro at age 26, but had a lot of success. First champion of Argentina. Held flyweight crown for 6 years. The best flyweight of the 1950s.
38. Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles: The greatest welterweight of the 1970s and late 60s. Smooth and skillful as butter that fought in 18 world championship fights, winning 15 of them. Two-time welter world champ.
39. Joe Walcott: Two-time welter world champ that fought men bigger his size.
40. George Foreman: A devastating puncher.....
Has the gretest ratio of KOs between heavyweight champions.

41. Larry Holmes: Probably possessed the greatest jab in heavyweight history. Made 20 title defenses of the heavy crown, second to the great Joe Louis. Excellent technician and crafty tactician, was the best heavyweight of the 1980s.
42. Salvador Sanchez: A talent that we lost at 23. We never know how well he would have done if not die in a fatal car crash. But at the time of his death, had already stablished Hall of Fame credentials in beating Danny Lopez, Juan LaPorte, Wilfredo Gomez and Azumah Nelson. The greatest featherweight of the 1980s.
43. Bob Fitzsimmons: First man in boxing history to win 3 world titles in 3 different weight classes. Hard puncher with great longevity.
44. Ruben Olivares: Awesome bantamweight that won 4 titles in 2 weight classes. One of boxing's hardest Punchers ever.
45. Dick Tiger: Great African warrior that won 3 titles in 2 weight classes. Probably the best middleweight of the 1960s. Elevated African boxing to new heights.
46. Tommy Loughran: The greatest light heavyweight of the 1920s. Never lost the crown in 6 title defenses. Fought 13 hall of famers, beating 8 of them.
47. Michael Spinks: First lightheavyweight champion in history to win a piece of the heavy title. The greatest lightheavyweight of his time (the 1980s).
48. Carmen Basilio: Won 3 titles in 2 weight classes. Involved in the Ring fight of the Year in 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958 and 1959. Action packed fighter that is one of the roughest and toughest in boxing history.
49. Joe Frazier: One of the most popular champions in history. Absolute winner of the Fight of the Century with the great Muhammad Ali. With Ali, had 3 epic battles that will forever be remembered. Beat the best top heavyweights of his time.
50. Thomas Hearns: First man in history to win 4 titles in 4 weight classes. First man in history to knock out the great Roberto Duran. Also is known as the most exciting fighter of the 1980s

[elmersalsa]

ooooppppsss!!!!
I made the mistake in putting 19th century instead of 20th century.

[Ezzard]

I don't rate HWs in my P4P lists because they sit at the top of boxing. The HWs stand alone IMO. They also do not have the opportunity to fight boxers in higher weight categories.

A question to all you who do rate them... Do you look at size? Does a small HW like Marciano deserve a higher ranking than a giant like Foreman/Lewis etc... because although they were in the same division Rocky was considerably smaller?

[Ezzard]

1. Ray Robinson
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Harry Greb
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Sam Langford
6. Roberto Duran
7. Sandy Saddler
8. Wilie Pep
9. Joe Gans
10. Archie Moore

11. Bob Fitzsimmons
12. Benny Leonard
13. Tony Canzoneri
14. Mickey Walker
15. Jimmy Wilde
16. Eder Jofre
17. Barney Ross
18. Gene Tunney
19. Emile Griffith
20. Ray Leonard

[dr_devious]

1. Robinson
2. Langford
3. Armstrong
4. Ali
5. Duran
6. Wilde
7. Pep
8 = Hagler & Monzon
10 = Benny & Ray Leonard

[pundit]

6. Joe Gans: The greatest fighter of the beginning of the 19th century

???

['Rocket'Rigby]

Here's my list, with a few changes I'm thinking of:

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Sam Langford
5. Roberto Duran
6. Jimmy Wilde
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Muhammad Ali (too low)
9. Joe Louis
10. Benny Leonard
11. Ray Leonard
12. Eder Jofre
13. Willie Pep
14. Carlos Monzon
15. Archie Moore
16. Marvin Hagler
17. Sandy Saddler (too low)
18. Gene Tunney
19. Michael Spinks
20. Pernell Whitaker
21. Roy Jones, Jr. (maybe too high)
22. Jack Dempsey
23. Salvador Sanchez
24. Emile Griffith
25. Mickey Walker
26. Billy Conn
27. Alexis Arguello
28. Tommy Hearns
29. Bob Fitzsimmons
30. Bob Foster
31. Fighting Harada
32. Evander Holyfield
33. Sonny Liston
34. Rocky Marciano
35. Marcel Cerdan
36. Larry Holmes
37. Bernard Hopkins
38. Barney Ross
39. Pasquel Perez
40. Charley Burley
41. Julio Cesar Chavez
42. Joe Frazier
43. Tony Canzoneri
44. Jose Napoles
45. Lloyd Marshall
46. Joe Gans
47. Chang Jung Koo
48. Holman Williams
49. Tiger Flowers
50. Tommy Burns

I actually like this list more than most of my others.

That's a great list Dec, just wish I could compile mine so comprehensively. I create a top 10 and I'm immediately changing it, but here's what I've settled with:

1. 'Sugar' Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Sam Langford
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Roberto Duran
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Joe Louis
9. Willie Pep
10. Archie Moore

[pundit]

The forum top 20 after 8 votes. Greb, Langford and Duran are tied for thrid place.


1. Ray Robinson 80
2. Henry Armstrong 65
3. Harry Greb 47
3. Sam Langford 47
3. Roberto Duran 47
6. Muhammad Ali 38
7. Ezzard Charles 28
8. Willie Pep 27
9. Joe Louis 19
10. Jimmy Wilde 10
11. Benny Leonard 7
11. Joe Gans 7
13. Ray Leonard 5
14. Sandy Saddler 4
15. Marvin Hagler 3
15. Carlos Monzon 3
17. Archie Moore 2
18. Joe Walcott 1
18. Pernell Withaker 1
18. Jack Johnson 1

[elmersalsa]

6. Joe Gans: The greatest fighter of the beginning of the 19th century

???

Yeah, I tried to correct that, but it was too late. I meant 20th century.

[Rory McCloskey]

ive always had a hard time decided on lists like these...i always feel like i should put ALI at 1, because in my mind he is the greatest boxer of all time. but you have guys like SRR and such that win in different divisions, i think its harder for a pure heavyweight like ali to prove his talent because he can only fight in 1 division, where as SRR proved he could dominate at different weight classes. but for my money ill take ALI as the best p4p fighter ever

[Ambling Alp]

I always find it interesting that people spend the vast majority of time talking about heavyweights. However, when it comes to pound for pound lists, the heavyweights almost always do so poorly.

[Ambling Alp]

I just find it interesting that when people do pound for pound rankings and compare a heavyweight and say a welterweight, the welterweight always seems to get the benefit of the doubt. It seems odd that people usually seem to assume that if the smaller fighter would be better than the larger fighter if they were the same size. But is that always the case?

It would also be interesting to go through back issues of Ring Magazine and see what % of the time that a heavyweight was the #1 fighter.

Of course in the current situation, no heavyweight is anywhere near the best. However, throughout history, there have been times when a heavyweight probably was the best fighter in the world.

[Collins2000]

The only 2 definite entries in an all time p4p list would be Bert & Ginger.

And there's daylight between them and the rest.

[dr_devious]

The only 2 definite entries in an all time p4p list would be Bert & Ginger.

And there's daylight between them and the rest.

The Bert and Ginger jokes are getting a bit worn now, its all getting rather Sadd