Robinson: Good enough to beat Mayweather, De La Hoya?

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Rocky Balboa
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Robinson: Good enough to beat Mayweather, De La Hoya?

Post by Rocky Balboa »

02.05.07 - By James Slater: How the fight game has changed over the years. Back in the heyday of the greatest fighter who ever lived, Walker Smith Junior - better known, of course, as "Sugar" Ray Robinson - there was nowhere near as much hype and hoopla given to a big fight. Certainly not as much as this Saturday's "The world Awaits" promotion has had, anyway. Nor was there anywhere near as much monetary reward for the men doing the fighting. Evan someone as phenomenally gifted as Ray Robinson could have only dreamed of earning the kind of cash Oscar De La Hoya and Floyd Mayweather will pocket this weekend.

Consider: throughout his entire career, Ray Robinson made roughly four million dollars. Nowadays a fighter the calibre of a Floyd Mayweather would not even box a non-title bout for that kind of dough. Hell, Oscar is getting nearly five times that amount for his defence against "Pretty Boy!" Oh, how the sport has changed. And how unfair it all is.

You tell me, are today's gladiators worth the kind of scratch they are getting? Couldn't the original "Sugar Ray" have beaten each of the two men who will enter the ring at The MGM Grand on Saturday with relative ease? Couldn't he have even beaten the pair in the same evening? Without trying to be disrespectful to either man, I believe he could have.

Ray boxed his sublimely brilliant peak years as a welterweight. So, for the sake of fairness, as both Oscar and Floyd now fight at light-middleweight, I will compare the later Ray Robinson with them. Ray fought "The Bronx Bull," Jake LaMotta, at middleweight in 1951. Even then, however, he tipped in at only 155 ½. No-one is going to argue then, that "Sugar" was either too big as a middleweight, or too small as a welterweight, to have boxed Floyd or Oscar. Losing that pound and-a-half would have been no problem for Robinson.

Now at the exact same weight as his two "dream fight" opponents, what would have happened had they fought?

The 1951 version of Ray Robinson was still a superbly equipped fighting machine. He had neither the brittle hands that so plague Mayweather, nor did he succumb to the stamina shortcomings that Oscar has in the past. Able to fight hard, and punch very hard, for a full fifteen rounds, Robinson would have made mincemeat out of practically any of today's light middleweights - Oscar and Floyd included. Look at the tape of his great fight with the never-say-die LaMotta.

How fast was Robinson? How hard did he hit Jake, and how many times? Could the Oscar De La Hoya that was beaten by today's "Sugar Man," in Shane Mosley, have stood up to what LaMotta had to take when he was in there with Robinson? I don't think so. Picture a similar, but quicker, version of the Hopkins fight, and you will get an idea of what would have happened to "The Golden Boy" had the two men boxed.

As for Floyd's chances with the man he himself says he could have beaten, it's a little more tricky. Seeing as how the fantasy match-up is being held at a weight Floyd has not yet boxed at, we don't know how efficient he will be at 154. Still, it's hard to imagine him improving that much on the recognised talent he has shown in his other bouts. He may even be slower and easier to hit at 154 - let's face it, that's what Oscar's fans are hoping on for Saturday. But even a Floyd Mayweather that is a touch faster at 154 than he has been in previous weight classes would not have been able to master Ray Robinson.

After his easy mid-rounds KO over Oscar, Ray would have been as fresh as a daisy still. With more than enough stamina left in the tank to go today's limit of twelve rounds, Robinson would have pushed little Floyd all over the ring. The Mayweather shoulder roll would have been a nowhere near adequate move with which to avoid the torrent of non-stop blows coming at him from Ray, and the KO would have definitely come. In the early rounds the quickness of "Pretty Boy" would have kept him in there, but by the ninth Robbie's power and perfectly thrown and placed punches would have caught up with him. Never having been hit as hard before in his life, Mayweather would indeed have looked and felt like 'little Floyd,' overwhelmed, beaten up and demoralised as he would have been. Remember, Ray stood five feet, eleven, while Floyd stands only five feet, eight. Robinson had a reach advantage, too. Add these factors to his superior punch power - punch power that was as formidable when retreating as it was when coming forward, don't forget - speed, proven chin and stamina over fifteen rounds, and it's clear there would have been only one winner.

Saturday's fight is a great fight for today, without a doubt. But if we compare either the fight itself or each of the two men involved with the glory days of pugilist masters like Ray Robinson and the almost unbelievable fights he had, we are going way too far with the hype. Look at the facts, Robinson had over two hundred fights as a pro - over twice as many as both Oscar and Floyd combined. And Ray was never once legitimately KO'd. Fighters were just tougher back in Robbie's day. It's that simple.


I don't know about beating Mayweather & De La Hoya on the same night, but I do think Robinson would have proved too good for both fighters. IMO, Ray Robinson was a close a boxer has come to being perfection. The man had everything in abundance.

Simply, a remarkable boxer. Imagine the £ Robinson would have been earning had he been boxing today?
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Post by Diamond WEAPON »

I disagree with the fighters were just tougher thing, all weight classes have their own primes and fighters who rise above the rest and Robinson's just happened to be back then, I sure as hell wouldn't throw any of the Super Bantams-Super Feathers of old against the likes of the Marquez bros., Pacquiao, Barrera et al., to me they'd all get demolished.

I too believe Ray Robinson would've defeated both DLH and Mayweather though. He was an excellent fighter n every way, it's very hard to go back through history and try to find other fighters from 135-160 that would've been competetve with him, particularly under 160 as I think guys like Taylor, Hopkins, Hagler and Miranda could have punished SRR.

For 154 down maybe Chavez, Duran, and Ray Leonard could have given him touble, possibly Aaron Pryor too because I feel he's drastically underrated as he was a wild beast in his prime who obliterated Alexis Arguello
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Post by I Feel Fine »

Silly article.

Yes, of course Robinson beats both of them. Floyd is a natural Lightweight, and while Robinson fought at Lightweight at one point in his career he was a natural Welterweight who had power enough to stop iron chinned Middleweights. Oscar couldn't beat Mosley in two fights, as whoever wrote this points out. Robinson would beat either, though not in the same night... maybe within a two or three month period. But it's hardly worth castigating Mayweather or Oscar because they make more money today... that's how all sports are. One big time player today probably makes more money than the entire "Murderer's Row" Yankees team did in 27... that's not the modern baseball players fault, and neither is it Oscar or Floyd's fault.

People, especially sports writers, just like to bitch, really. Who is comparing Oscar to Robinson? Who is comparing Mayweather to Robinson... besides Mayweather himself? lol No serious person is saying either fighter is better than Robinson... Oscar isn't even a top 10 P4P fighter anymore. Are Oscar and Mayweather supposed to turn down the money because Robinson didn't make it? lol This is how sports work... Ali in one fight could make more money than all the previous Heavyweight champions did in their career's... today Oscar, a Jr. Middleweight, can make more money in one fight than Ali could in one fight... and in the future you will probably see the bigger names in boxing making more than Oscar does...

It's also a non-starter to compare them to the greatest fighter of all time. And no one back then made that kind of money... Robinson probably made more money than most of the non-Heavyweights of his era, I would imagine. And not everyone in Robinson's era fought 200+ times and was never KO'd... and if fighters like Robinson were more active back then than today's fighters are it was because they needed to fight often to make money... if Robinson was fighting today he'd probably have 40-50 maybe 60 fights, not 200+.

I don't care for the general tone of article in disparaging modern fighters.

Boxing is hanging on a thread, and this kind of fight can help boxing. If it's a good fight, if there's no controversy, if something exciting happens then it will be very good for boxing. If people really care about boxing they should be pulling for this fight to be successful...
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Post by The Great John L »

Diamond WEAPON wrote: I sure as hell wouldn't throw any of the Super Bantams-Super Feathers of old against the likes of the Marquez bros., Pacquiao, Barrera et al., to me they'd all get demolished.
Pep and Sadler (among others) would get “demolished” by the Marquez bros., Pacquiao, Barrera et al.? Hmmmmmm
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Post by Diamond WEAPON »

The Great John L wrote:
Diamond WEAPON wrote: I sure as hell wouldn't throw any of the Super Bantams-Super Feathers of old against the likes of the Marquez bros., Pacquiao, Barrera et al., to me they'd all get demolished.
Pep and Sadler (among others) would get “demolished” by the Marquez bros., Pacquiao, Barrera et al.? Hmmmmmm
oops, my bad, I got a bit carried away to the point where I didn't even consider them, yes they would do very well, but my main point was that whole fallacy of ppl being tougher in "the good ol' days." Salvador Sanchez imo could have beaten all of them as well, especially had he not died so prematurely
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Post by Sweet P »

I think the article is a bit contreversiol,

I honestley think that Robinson was the best fighter P4P ever but he was beaten a few times by fighters not as good as DeLaHoya and Mayweather and i cant see why either of them might not have pulled an upset.
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Post by overhand_right »

Diamond WEAPON wrote: particularly under 160 as I think guys like Taylor, Hopkins, Hagler and Miranda could have punished SRR.
Jermain Taylor, Edison Miranda "punish" Sugar Ray Robinson... :o

Are you new to boxing?
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Post by I Feel Fine »

ben k wrote:I think the article is a bit contreversiol,

I honestley think that Robinson was the best fighter P4P ever but he was beaten a few times by fighters not as good as DeLaHoya and Mayweather and i cant see why either of them might not have pulled an upset.
That was when Ray was 38-39-40+
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Post by Diamond WEAPON »

overhand_right wrote:
Diamond WEAPON wrote: particularly under 160 as I think guys like Taylor, Hopkins, Hagler and Miranda could have punished SRR.
Jermain Taylor, Edison Miranda "punish" Sugar Ray Robinson... :o

Are you new to boxing?
I said could have, it wasn't as if I think they would have, Ray Robinson was an excellent boxer but nobody is invincible and he managed to lose to guys like Ralph Jones and Randy Turpin, of course I don't think they're better than him but I think the size and power of those mentioned might've posed more trouble to SRR than anybody he fought.
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Post by I Feel Fine »

Robinson was coming off his layoff against Jones and looked terrible in the fight, he had a lot of ring rust, Jones did not beat a good or even an okay Robinson, and when Robinson fought Turpin he was coming off a hyperactive schedule where he had four fights within the last 30 days prior to the Turpin bout... besides the cut he handled Turpin rather easily in the rematch and brutally KO'd him.

Yes, of course there's always the possibility that Robinson could lose to one of those guys, but I think Robinson-Hagler/Hopkins are toss up's and I would make Ray the heavy favorite to beat Miranda or Taylor...
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Post by Sweet P »

I Feel Fine wrote:
ben k wrote:I think the article is a bit contreversiol,

I honestley think that Robinson was the best fighter P4P ever but he was beaten a few times by fighters not as good as DeLaHoya and Mayweather and i cant see why either of them might not have pulled an upset.
That was when Ray was 38-39-40+
Lamotta Turpin arn't as good as Mayweather and DeLaHoya( in my opinion) and he also drew with Basora and Brimm who are not exactley top fighters. These were all before the age of 30
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Post by JC »

ben k wrote:Lamotta Turpin arn't as good as Mayweather and DeLaHoya( in my opinion) and he also drew with Basora and Brimm who are not exactley top fighters. These were all before the age of 30
On the Turpin point I agree that DLH and Mayweather are better, however Turpin was a huge middleweight, had a pretty arkward style and hit like a mule. He's a completely different match-up to Mayweather or DLH, especially when you consider Robinson was still weighing around 155lbs at that time in his career
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Post by Aldo Pravisani »

Was Robinson good enough.....?

Is the Pope a Catholic? Do the bears shit in the wood? Are the Kennedys gun shy?
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Post by Sweet P »

Decagon wrote:LaMotta would fucking destroy Mayweather or De la Hoya. He was a middleweight. Mayweather won't even take on Winky Wright.
Lamotta was a slow footed bum, He is one of the most overrated fighters in history. He could take a beating and punch but was almost as limited as Mayorga.
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Post by JC »

ben k wrote:
Decagon wrote:LaMotta would fucking destroy Mayweather or De la Hoya. He was a middleweight. Mayweather won't even take on Winky Wright.
Lamotta was a slow footed bum, He is one of the most overrated fighters in history. He could take a beating and punch but was almost as limited as Mayorga.
Come on Ben how can you say he's a bum? Look at some of the guys he beat

Robinson
Cerdan
Satterfield
Zivic
Holman Williams

If he was a bum those guys would have murdered him.
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Post by Sweet P »

J-C wrote:
ben k wrote:
Decagon wrote:LaMotta would fucking destroy Mayweather or De la Hoya. He was a middleweight. Mayweather won't even take on Winky Wright.
Lamotta was a slow footed bum, He is one of the most overrated fighters in history. He could take a beating and punch but was almost as limited as Mayorga.
Come on Ben how can you say he's a bum? Look at some of the guys he beat

Robinson
Cerdan
Satterfield
Zivic
Holman Williams

If he was a bum those guys would have murdered him.
I was a bit harsh but ive never been impressed by LaMotta,
Zizic was a welter and 30 when he fought Lamotta and Satterfield was early in his career. I dont think anyone on LaMotta's win list is even close to DeLaHoya and Mayweather except SRR.
I cant see this slow footed fighter being quick enough to beat either.
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Post by I Feel Fine »

ben k wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:
ben k wrote:I think the article is a bit contreversiol,

I honestley think that Robinson was the best fighter P4P ever but he was beaten a few times by fighters not as good as DeLaHoya and Mayweather and i cant see why either of them might not have pulled an upset.
That was when Ray was 38-39-40+
Lamotta Turpin arn't as good as Mayweather and DeLaHoya( in my opinion) and he also drew with Basora and Brimm who are not exactley top fighters. These were all before the age of 30
Whatever you think of LaMotta (and I think he's a bit better than you think he is), the version of him who Robinson beat is better than today's 34 year old Oscar De La Hoya who Floyd is about to beat... I mean fight. Plus LaMotta had 16 pounds on Robinson... 16 pounds...

What about Kid Gavilan... is he better than Floyd? I would say yes...

You can't expect a guy who fought 200 times not to have at least a draw with somebody... everyone has an off night, and he KO'd Basora in 1 round in the rematch...
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Post by BoxBuzz »

Here is how the Hyper Powered Univac fight Simulator called both of these theoreticals.

DLH vs Ray Robinson
http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=62525

FMJ vs Ray Robinson
http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=62522
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Post by Sweet P »

I Feel Fine wrote:
ben k wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:That was when Ray was 38-39-40+
Lamotta Turpin arn't as good as Mayweather and DeLaHoya( in my opinion) and he also drew with Basora and Brimm who are not exactley top fighters. These were all before the age of 30
Whatever you think of LaMotta (and I think he's a bit better than you think he is), the version of him who Robinson beat is better than today's 34 year old Oscar De La Hoya who Floyd is about to beat... I mean fight. Plus LaMotta had 16 pounds on Robinson... 16 pounds...

What about Kid Gavilan... is he better than Floyd? I would say yes...

You can't expect a guy who fought 200 times not to have at least a draw with somebody... everyone has an off night, and he KO'd Basora in 1 round in the rematch...
If you read my first post you will see that i said that they might have pulled off an upset :TU: :TU:
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Post by BoxBuzz »

ben k wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:
ben k wrote: Lamotta Turpin arn't as good as Mayweather and DeLaHoya( in my opinion) and he also drew with Basora and Brimm who are not exactley top fighters. These were all before the age of 30
Whatever you think of LaMotta (and I think he's a bit better than you think he is), the version of him who Robinson beat is better than today's 34 year old Oscar De La Hoya who Floyd is about to beat... I mean fight. Plus LaMotta had 16 pounds on Robinson... 16 pounds...

What about Kid Gavilan... is he better than Floyd? I would say yes...

You can't expect a guy who fought 200 times not to have at least a draw with somebody... everyone has an off night, and he KO'd Basora in 1 round in the rematch...
If you read my first post you will see that i said that they might have pulled off an upset :TU: :TU:
I agree with your point ben.....And thought I think Floyd perhaps is a bit better than DLH overall I also think DLH would have the better shot at the upset since he possesses the tools that were more frustrating for Ray. Your not likely going out finesse Ray Robinson, but you might be able to tough it out with him.
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Post by I Feel Fine »

ben k wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:
ben k wrote: Lamotta Turpin arn't as good as Mayweather and DeLaHoya( in my opinion) and he also drew with Basora and Brimm who are not exactley top fighters. These were all before the age of 30
Whatever you think of LaMotta (and I think he's a bit better than you think he is), the version of him who Robinson beat is better than today's 34 year old Oscar De La Hoya who Floyd is about to beat... I mean fight. Plus LaMotta had 16 pounds on Robinson... 16 pounds...

What about Kid Gavilan... is he better than Floyd? I would say yes...

You can't expect a guy who fought 200 times not to have at least a draw with somebody... everyone has an off night, and he KO'd Basora in 1 round in the rematch...
If you read my first post you will see that i said that they might have pulled off an upset :TU: :TU:
This debate comes up every so often... people saying that on any given night Robinson could have lost to anybody... and of course that's true, but I think it's always good to remember that Ray didn't lose those fights at his best... there was usually something going on, at least until he got old. Anyone can lose on an off night... if it happened more often to Ray it was because he fought more often. That's all I was saying, it's a given that on any night anyone could possibly lose to anybody.
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