The greatest 190lber?

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 05 May 2007, 05:31

Who do you think is the greatest fighter to have fought at around about 190lb in his peak?

Logic says Evander Holyfield, but looking back, some of the greatest HW champs weighed around about 190lb.

I'm voting for Gene Tunney, although Marciano must be up there too.

Friedie · Post by **Friedie** » 05 May 2007, 12:50

Dempsey and Schmeling must be mentioned too I think.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 05 May 2007, 13:31

I still want to say Holyfield... I think he beats Tunney or Schmeling and I would favor him to beat Dempsey... though it would be tough I think, for a few different reasons... and I think Holyfield could be tough enough to beat Rocky.. though I wouldn't be surprised either way with that fight.

'Rocket'Rigby · Post by **'Rocket'Rigby** » 05 May 2007, 14:06

Could Ezzard Charles' achievements be considered...

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 May 2007, 15:26

I'd say Ezzard Charles... in his prime he would have schooled Marciano imo...

'Rocket'Rigby · Post by **'Rocket'Rigby** » 05 May 2007, 15:56

silkov wrote:I'd say Ezzard Charles... in his prime he would have schooled Marciano imo...

Well you are entitled to your opinion...

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 05 May 2007, 16:37

Carlos de Leon

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 05 May 2007, 16:37

No sorry, I mean Jack Dempsey

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 05 May 2007, 18:10

Holyfield -Tunney has got to be an interesting matchup. I would think it would be more competitive than the simulator calls it though. I think Gene might have the edge.

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=62533

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 06 May 2007, 01:52

Decagon wrote:I'll take a shot at it:

1. Rocky Marciano
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Gene Tunney
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Jersey Joe Walcott
7. Max Schmeling
8. Sam Langford
9. Floyd Patterson
10. Jerry Quarry
11. Michael Spinks
12. Archie Moore
13. Jim Corbett
14. Tommy Burns
15. Harry Greb
16. Billy Conn
17. Roy Jones
18. Harold Johnson
19. Jimmy Bivins
20. Jim Braddock

Excellent list!!!!

Minotauro · Post by **Minotauro** » 06 May 2007, 13:36

1. Ezzard Charles
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Jersey Joe Walcott
4. Evander Holyfield
5. Floyd Patterson
More of the fighters I prefer than the best 190lbs fighter although I think prime Ezzard was the best.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 May 2007, 04:18

Decagon wrote:I'll take a shot at it:

1. Rocky Marciano
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Gene Tunney
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Jersey Joe Walcott
7. Max Schmeling
8. Sam Langford
9. Floyd Patterson
10. Jerry Quarry
11. Michael Spinks
12. Archie Moore
13. Jim Corbett
14. Tommy Burns
15. Harry Greb
16. Billy Conn
17. Roy Jones
18. Harold Johnson
19. Jimmy Bivins
20. Jim Braddock

good list except moore should be over spinx and walcott and charles should be over tunney. i think ur 13-20 list is very off.....u left many top 190lbers out that deserve to be in

i think walcott should be over evander too

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 May 2007, 04:18

silkov wrote:I'd say Ezzard Charles... in his prime he would have schooled Marciano imo...

just like he schooled SWARMER elmer ray right??

Friedie · Post by **Friedie** » 07 May 2007, 10:19

Decagon wrote:I worked on the list a little bit:

1. Rocky Marciano
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Gene Tunney
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Jersey Joe Walcott
7. Max Schmeling
8. Sam Langford
9. Floyd Patterson
10. Jerry Quarry
11. Michael Spinks
12. Archie Moore
13. Jim Corbett
14. Jim Braddock
15. Harry Greb
16. Tommy Burns
17. Bob Fitzsimmons
18. Marvin Hart
19. Billy Conn
20. Jimmy Bivins

The fighters from place 3 to 9 are very close to each other IMO.
You could find good arguments for any different ranking here.
Patterson e.g. was a very good boxer but because of his chin-vulnerability it is very different to rank him I guess. So he has the means to win a point descision against many opponents on that list but there's allways the chance he will get knocked out (as against Johannson in their first fight) by the likes of Marciano, Dempsey, Schmeling or even Braddock.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 07 May 2007, 11:44

'Rocket'Rigby wrote:
silkov wrote:I'd say Ezzard Charles... in his prime he would have schooled Marciano imo...
Well you are entitled to your opinion...

This was also Archie Moore's opinion -- and he should know.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 07 May 2007, 11:50

This is how I order them. Although prime for prime Charles may well be #2 or 3.

1. Sam Langford
2. Gene Tunney
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Evander Holyfield
7. Jim Corbett
8. Max Schmeling
9. Jersey Joe Walcott
10. Floyd Patterson

Michael Spinks weighed in at 200 or more in his HW fights (otherwise he would be my #10).

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 07 May 2007, 14:27

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
silkov wrote:I'd say Ezzard Charles... in his prime he would have schooled Marciano imo...

just like he schooled SWARMER elmer ray right??

Right!.

8)

.. Charles outboxed Ray in their first bout but was robbed of the decision, (read the reviews, or watch the fight!) then made sure of it by koing Ray in the rematch!.

.. nuff said I think!!.. 8)

...you need to work on your research

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 07 May 2007, 16:01

1. Marciano
2. Dempsey
3. Holyfield
4. Tunney
5. Langford
6. Patterson
7. Charles
8. Schmeling
9. Fitzsimmons
10. Corbett

The difference between the fighters from one ranking position to the next is very close in each case.

Walcott shouldn't be ranked because he was above 190 after 1945, and conventional wisdom is that none of Walcott's career before that should count.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 07 May 2007, 16:21

Ambling Alp wrote:1. Marciano
2. Dempsey
3. Holyfield
4. Tunney
5. Langford
6. Patterson
7. Charles
8. Schmeling
9. Fitzsimmons
10. Corbett

The difference between the fighters from one ranking position to the next is very close in each case.

Walcott shouldn't be ranked because he was above 190 after 1945, and conventional wisdom is that none of Walcott's career before that should count.

Corbett was better than Fitzsimmons, in spite of the result of their one fight.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 07 May 2007, 17:04

Since Fitz won the head to head fight, I give him the edge because the the rest of Corbett's career would have to be better than Fitz's and I don't think it is.

boxpope · Post by **boxpope** » 07 May 2007, 17:12

Ambling Alp wrote:Since Fitz won the head to head fight, I give him the edge because the the rest of Corbett's career would have to be better than Fitz's and I don't think it is.

I think at 190 lbs Corbetts career was better...

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 07 May 2007, 17:47

Ambling Alp wrote:Since Fitz won the head to head fight, I give him the edge because the the rest of Corbett's career would have to be better than Fitz's and I don't think it is.

At heavyweight it surely is.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 May 2007, 21:03

pundit wrote:
'Rocket'Rigby wrote:
silkov wrote:I'd say Ezzard Charles... in his prime he would have schooled Marciano imo...
Well you are entitled to your opinion...
This was also Archie Moore's opinion -- and he should know.

archie moore also said "no one past, present ur future could slug it out with marciano and come out alive". he said this after liston and foreman came along.

do u believe this too??

i think a peak marciano knocks out a peak charles late, and wins a 2 out of 3 trilogy with charles taking 1 fight.

charles couldnt school swarmer elmer ray i dont think he would school marciano.

half blind swarmer pat valentino gave charles a tough close fight up until the KO.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 May 2007, 21:05

silkov wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
silkov wrote:I'd say Ezzard Charles... in his prime he would have schooled Marciano imo...

just like he schooled SWARMER elmer ray right??

Right!. 8) .. Charles outboxed Ray in their first bout but was robbed of the decision, (read the reviews, or watch the fight!) then made sure of it by koing Ray in the rematch!. .. nuff said I think!!.. 8) ...you need to work on your research

umm the fight is not on film cheif, unless u have imaginary film.

On Ray/Charles-
“Violent Ray Tips Charles In Close Bout
“The smart money screamed and the heavyweight powers smiled unctuously today but there was no joy in the heart of Elmer (Violent) Ray, a man with a mission who for the second time had met a spoiler. The gallery gods went into ranting hysterics last night when the burly negro who once wrestled alligators for a living smashed the myth which was Ezzard Charles. The boxing bigwigs, who had been grooming Charles for a fight with Joe Louis, laughed. Once more they had given Joe Louis, the heavyweight champion, an excuse to dodge the Violent One.
For from 10 rows back it looked like Charles all the way. He danced and jabbed and landed a lot on Ray's bobbing pate and Elmer's busy elbows. But inside 10 rows you could see the devastation wrought by Ray's jarring hooks, blasts which raised the sheaf of Ezzard's cheek. “No holding,” was the continual admonition of referee Eddie Joseph. But Ezzard, of the winged retreating feet, had to hold for his life, and in doing so he made of Elmer Ray a modern Sam Langford.
You remember the Boston Tar Baby. He was a guy heavyweight champion Jack Johnson dodged and dodged during the six years he held the title some three decades ago. Langford tried desperately to get a bout with the champ, but Johnson never would have a part of him.
Louis is that way with Ray. It’s silly to say that Louis, the man who has made so many valiant defenses of the crown, is afraid of Elmer. But it is a fact that he won’t fight the burley puncher from Hastings, Florida. "Yeah, I’m a Langford" Ray said as, absolutely unmarked, be sat in room after winning over Charles. "Charles, huh! He's good light heavyweight and fast, but he couldn’t knock my hat off. If Louis still refuses to meet me I’m going to hang up my gloves.”
-Middlesboro Daily News, July 26, 1947
"Referee Eddie Joseph and Judge George Lecron gave Ray the fight by a narrow margin; six rounds for Ray and four for Charles. However, Judge Marty Monroe Came up with the surprising ballot of eight rounds for Charles and only two for Ray. The United Press favored Ray, 5-4-1."
-Charleston Daily Mail, July 26, 1947
It seems this match wasn't the rip-off that the boxrec description makes it look like. More of a very close battle in which the scoring probably depended on stylistic preference(do you favor Ray's aggression and power-punching, or Charles' textbook boxing and accuracy?).

as u see this was no robbery, it could have gone either way. charles beat ray in the rematch when ray tired due to age, but before then the fight was close....

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 07 May 2007, 22:25

pundit wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:Since Fitz won the head to head fight, I give him the edge because the the rest of Corbett's career would have to be better than Fitz's and I don't think it is.
At heavyweight it surely is.

I wouldn't say that. Fitz beat Sharkey,Ruhlin and Maher, besides beating Corbett. Why isn't that as impressive as what Corbett did?