A brief post about Oscar de la Hoya's legacy:

[Rory McCloskey]

nice post decagon it was a good read

['Rocket'Rigby]

the greats take one step further.

Agreed, it separates the good from the great and the living from the legend. Nice read Dec.

Regards,

Rocket
______
Molon Labe!

[thunderfromdownunder]

if de la hoya had gotten those decision he IMO won (trinidad and mosley II) would people views of him be different?

[Ezzard]

if de la hoya had gotten those decision he IMO won (trinidad and mosley II) would people views of him be different?

I think perhaps they might be.

[Ezzard]

Dec's given a good angle on DLH and his performance but what stands out for me is Floyd's overblown standing in the sport. Had both men been 30 DLH's legs may have had enough to see him take the decision.

[john2345]

if de la hoya had gotten those decision he IMO won (trinidad and mosley II) would people views of him be different?

Or if he'd lost the decisions to Whittaker and Quartey they might think differently too!

J

[BoxBuzz]

always competitive but rarely taking genuine risks. I'm inclined to agree with Decagon.....but on another level he may have had greater skill and talent than many of the legends who will be placed on top 15 or so. He simply lacked the gambler's heart, eye of the tiger, absolute hunger or whatever term you want to describe that undeterrable will to win.

To my eye he seemed to have what it would have taken to truly win every hotly contested fight he has ever had with the possible exception of Hopkins. And yet because he chose to play it safe he sometimes took losses by letting the fight get closer in points than may have been required based on his abilities.

A tell tale sign of the "soft" times we live in? Where the best don't really want to test themselves all out? Seems to be the modern culture. Some might just call it good sense. But like Decagon implies, it won't buy you a top flight legacy in boxing.

[elmersalsa]

I agree with Decagon on this thread on everything he wrote. I NEVER considered DeLaHoya an all time lightweight. He is not a top 20 lightweight nor welterweight. Probably or maybe a top 20 superwelterweight because that division is kind of young compared to lightweight or welterweight. When it comes to true heart and grit, DeLaHoya lacks what the true greats were all about.

He was just a money making gold medal pretty boy that knew how to sell his product...that's all. A top 100 all time pound per pound guy? Maybe. A top 50 all time pound per pound guy??? NOT A CHANCE!

a TOP 20 LIGHTWEIGHT? NO
A TOP 20 WELTERWEIGHT? NEVER

[BoxBuzz]

I agree with Decagon on this thread on everything he wrote. I NEVER considered DeLaHoya an all time lightweight. He is not a top 20 lightweight nor welterweight. Probably or maybe a top 20 superwelterweight because that division is kind of young compared to lightweight or welterweight. When it comes to true heart and grit, DeLaHoya lacks what the true greats were all about.

He was just a money making gold medal pretty boy that knew how to sell his product...that's all. A top 100 all time pound per pound guy? Maybe. A top 50 all time pound per pound guy??? NOT A CHANCE!

a TOP 20 LIGHTWEIGHT? NO
A TOP 20 WELTERWEIGHT? NEVER

So do you think he had greatness in him and that he never asked enough of himself?

Or do you think he just never really had it period.

[dempseyfire]

Oscar de la Hoya fought a much better fight two nights ago than I expected, but there's one thing he did that will HUGELY affect my view of his legacy. As everyone was saying, Oscar should have used his jab more. The reason he didn't was that Mayweather was countering with the overhand right every time Oscar used the jab. You may kid about Mayweather's power, but it was the power in his overhand right that kept De la Hoya from throwing that jabs that might have won him the fight.

A true warrior might have taken those punches and jabbed anyway, to hell or high water, even if he wasn't at his best. That's what Hagler did against Hearns. That's what Sugar Ray Robinson did against Gene Fullmer. That's what Ali did against Joe Frazier, George Foreman and I can't count how many other fighters. I didn't rank Oscar among the top 15 fighters of all time in lightweight or welterweight before this fight, and watching how the power of Mayweather - who's really no bigger than most of the top lightweights - stopped De la Hoya, I feel vindicated. There's no doubt that De la Hoya is very, very good and that he had a remarkable career, but the greats take one step further.

I highly disagree. I'll rewatch the fight, but from my recollection Oscar was enjoying GREAT success vs Floyd with the jab . . .Floyd wasn't countering over his jab effectively at all . . .he did have success vs LEAD right hands which he cleverly shoots out from time to time, but Floyd wasn't pulling any James Toney vs Ruiz right hand countering display on Saturday night.

I think Oscar neglected the jab b/c he tired and at 34, being so inactive, his reflexes are leaving him. When boxers talk about seeing openings and not pulling the trigger, that's those eroding reflexes displaying themselves right there.

Now about ranking him with the top 15 welters . . . I probably wouldn't, but that's more b/c of the incredible depth of those weight classes then a real knock on Dela Hoya. I would say Oscar was one of the few truly great fighters we've had over the past decade . . .not one of the best ever, but a great fighter nonetheless. He caught a lot of flack from people b/c he exploited his looks and catered to his female audience, but watch the last two rounds of the Quartey fight, a very tough fight for Oscar, and tell me he didn't have heart.

[Expug]

I dont know .
I cant find a whole hell of a lot to be critical as far as Oscars career goes.
The guy fought tough competition throughout his career and was involved in some exciting fights.
One thing, as a fighter gets a little bit older, its tougher to pull the trigger when what looks like an opening to the fans watching appears.
How often do you hear a fighter say "I saw the opening but I just couldnt get off".
I dont think oscar lacked heart or stones or any of that really.
It would be wonderful if every single fighter could throw non stop punches while coming forward shrugging off every punch that bounces off his chin while remaing unmarked .
But thats hollywood not the real situation in the ring.
Oscar had an outstanding career , made alot of dough and I think history will look back at him favorably.
I dont see him walking on his heels trying to put two sentences together 20 years from now either.
Hes gonna be able to play with his kids.

[Collins2000]

Oscar de la Hoya fought a much better fight two nights ago than I expected, but there's one thing he did that will HUGELY affect my view of his legacy. As everyone was saying, Oscar should have used his jab more. The reason he didn't was that Mayweather was countering with the overhand right every time Oscar used the jab. You may kid about Mayweather's power, but it was the power in his overhand right that kept De la Hoya from throwing that jabs that might have won him the fight.

A true warrior might have taken those punches and jabbed anyway, to hell or high water, even if he wasn't at his best. That's what Hagler did against Hearns. That's what Sugar Ray Robinson did against Gene Fullmer. That's what Ali did against Joe Frazier, George Foreman and I can't count how many other fighters. I didn't rank Oscar among the top 15 fighters of all time in lightweight or welterweight before this fight, and watching how the power of Mayweather - who's really no bigger than most of the top lightweights - stopped De la Hoya, I feel vindicated. There's no doubt that De la Hoya is very, very good and that he had a remarkable career, but the greats take one step further.

I highly disagree. I'll rewatch the fight, but from my recollection Oscar was enjoying GREAT success vs Floyd with the jab . . .Floyd wasn't countering over his jab effectively at all . . .he did have success vs LEAD right hands which he cleverly shoots out from time to time, but Floyd wasn't pulling any James Toney vs Ruiz right hand countering display on Saturday night.

I think Oscar neglected the jab b/c he tired and at 34, being so inactive, his reflexes are leaving him. When boxers talk about seeing openings and not pulling the trigger, that's those eroding reflexes displaying themselves right there.

I agree. I didn't see PBF countering the jab AT ALL. I saw him backing up and looking disorganised. It's a pity DLH was exhausted after 5 or 6 rounds.

[Collins2000]

I agree with Decagon on this thread on everything he wrote. I NEVER considered DeLaHoya an all time lightweight. He is not a top 20 lightweight nor welterweight. Probably or maybe a top 20 superwelterweight because that division is kind of young compared to lightweight or welterweight. When it comes to true heart and grit, DeLaHoya lacks what the true greats were all about.

He was just a money making gold medal pretty boy that knew how to sell his product...that's all. A top 100 all time pound per pound guy? Maybe. A top 50 all time pound per pound guy??? NOT A CHANCE!

a TOP 20 LIGHTWEIGHT? NO
A TOP 20 WELTERWEIGHT? NEVER

Your most biased post so far.

[Collins2000]

I dont know .
I cant find a whole hell of a lot to be critical as far as Oscars career goes.
The guy fought tough competition throughout his career and was involved in some exciting fights.
One thing, as a fighter gets a little bit older, its tougher to pull the trigger when what looks like an opening to the fans watching appears.
How often do you hear a fighter say "I saw the opening but I just couldnt get off".
I dont think oscar lacked heart or stones or any of that really.
It would be wonderful if every single fighter could throw non stop punches while coming forward shrugging off every punch that bounces off his chin while remaing unmarked .
But thats hollywood not the real situation in the ring.Oscar had an outstanding career , made alot of dough and I think history will look back at him favorably.
I dont see him walking on his heels trying to put two sentences together 20 years from now either.
Hes gonna be able to play with his kids.

Good comments, Expug.

A lot of the fekkwits in here have watched too many Rocky movies.

[BoxBuzz]

I dont know .
I cant find a whole hell of a lot to be critical as far as Oscars career goes.
The guy fought tough competition throughout his career and was involved in some exciting fights.
One thing, as a fighter gets a little bit older, its tougher to pull the trigger when what looks like an opening to the fans watching appears.
How often do you hear a fighter say "I saw the opening but I just couldnt get off".
I dont think oscar lacked heart or stones or any of that really.
It would be wonderful if every single fighter could throw non stop punches while coming forward shrugging off every punch that bounces off his chin while remaing unmarked .
But thats hollywood not the real situation in the ring.Oscar had an outstanding career , made alot of dough and I think history will look back at him favorably.
I dont see him walking on his heels trying to put two sentences together 20 years from now either.
Hes gonna be able to play with his kids.

Good comments, Expug.

A lot of the fekkwits in here have watched too many Rocky movies.

Good point....learning to take care of yourself and not turn into mush may not be something to count in the deficit column.

[Ezzard]

Times have changed. Mant fighters will just not put their long term health at risk anymore. We have to accept that. I think shorter careers are fair enough as long as you fight the best out there. Oscar did fight the best out there.

He was involved in so many close fights Whittaker, Quartey, Trinidad, Moseley, Mayweather that it's hard to convince yourself as to the right way to rank them all.

[Evander]

if de la hoya had gotten those decision he IMO won (trinidad and mosley II) would people views of him be different?

Not sure he won Mosley 2.
But he won the Trinidad fight.

Put that one up for debate and let's see people go for it.
That is a De La Hoya win no question.

I think the people need the record put straight on that fight.

It is a fairly easy one to score for De La Hoya really.

[Ambling Alp]

De La Hoya did have a lot of close fights.
The Whitaker and Quartey fights could have gone either way, and De La hoya got the benefit of the doubt. While he blew the the last 3 rounds of the Trinidad fight, Trindiad did so little in the fight that De La Hoya still won more rounds and should have got the decision. In the 2nd Moseley fight he should have gotten the decision, though it was more of a case of Moseley losing it more than De La Hoya winning it.

His other losses were to Mosley, Hopkins, and Mayweather. In the first Moseley fight, he actually fought a very good fight but Moseley was even better. In the Hopkins fight, he actually did pretty well in the first few rounds, but then seemed to lose steam in the middle rounds and Hopkins took over.
Time will tell, but I don't think the Mayweather fight will be seen as that important at all to either fighter's reputation. De La Hoya had been very inactive and was past his best. If De La hoya would have won, then it would have been said that Mayweather was fighting at too high of a weight. This fight was more media hype than important fight.

De La Hoya usually often seemed to fight close to level of his opponents performance. Against Trinidad and in the 2nd Moseley fight, though he deserved the decision, he should have been able to make it clearcut given Trinidad and Moseley inept performances. Quartey fought perhaps his best fight and De La Hoya fought well to eke out a decision.

Vargas also fought a good fight but De La Hoya fought one his best fights to beat him.

From Corbett to Tunney to Ray Leonard to De La Hoya, fighters who are good looking guys, are reasonably intelligent, and are well spoken are always ripped by a certain amount of fans who for whatever reason don't like these characteristics in a fighter. Some of these critics will pick out things from thin air and make bogus criticisms of these fighters.

Fortunately, some people are able to rationally judge fighters like these (whether they like them or not).

How highly regarded De La Hoya in 10-20 years is hard to say. One thing that may hurt his legacy is that he didn't stay in one weight class for a lengthy time; therefore not establishing himself to some people as a great fighter in a particular weight class. However, other people are impressed by fighters who do win titles in several weight classes and may be impressed by De La Hoya. He may wind up being considered pound for pound rated higher than fighters who are rated higher than him in a particular weight class.

He doesn't have a particular win over an all time great opponent during or close their primes. However, other fighters are considered legends who never did this either. De La Hoya did win so many wins over very good fighters. He was the exception in his era; a fighter who consistently fought the best.
Ultimately, he probably won't be considered a legend. He will probably be considered in the class of fighters right below this.

[KOJOE90]

This is the way I look at De La Hoya when grading him against other 'modern' fighters. It's often talked about how he would have coped in the era of Hagler, Leonard, Duran and Hearns, which is high praise in itself, but I think he would have struggled against the Fabulous Four. So I think of the next level guys of that time, Pryor, Palomino, Benitez, Cervantaz and Cuevas, where I think De La Hoya would have gained his fair share of victorys.

[Ambling Alp]

That's sort of how I would place him as well. He should be below Hagler,Hearns,Duran and Leonard.
Actually I might make 3 groups. The middle group would be De La Hoya, Pryor and Benitez. The lower group would be Cervantes, Palomino, and Cuevas.
He may give the top group some trouble, but would lose. He would have trouble with the lowest group but win. Pryor and Benitez would very interesting fights for him.

[dempseyfire]

That's sort of how I would place him as well. He should be below Hagler,Hearns,Duran and Leonard.
Actually I might make 3 groups. The middle group would be De La Hoya, Pryor and Benitez. The lower group would be Cervantes, Palomino, and Cuevas.
He may give the top group some trouble, but would lose. He would have trouble with the lowest group but win. Pryor and Benitez would very interesting fights for him.

Whoa, I wouldn't go that far. I think Benitez wins a decision and Pryor at lightweight would tear Oscar apart in a competetive fight until the last rounds where it would turn into a beating.

With Cervantes and Palomino sounds about right. Again, there have been SO many great fighters from 135-154 . .

[Borinken25]

That's sort of how I would place him as well. He should be below Hagler,Hearns,Duran and Leonard.
Actually I might make 3 groups. The middle group would be De La Hoya, Pryor and Benitez. The lower group would be Cervantes, Palomino, and Cuevas.
He may give the top group some trouble, but would lose. He would have trouble with the lowest group but win. Pryor and Benitez would very interesting fights for him.

Whoa, I wouldn't go that far. I think Benitez wins a decision and Pryor at lightweight would tear Oscar apart in a competetive fight until the last rounds where it would turn into a beating.

With Cervantes and Palomino sounds about right. Again, there have been SO many great fighters from 135-154 . .

I agree 100% with your post.

[dr_devious]

I agree with Dec's analysis of de la Hoya; very good but not an all time great

[elmersalsa]

#22 at welterweight, #24 at lightweight. Nowhere near my top-50 pound-for-pound.

Not even neart the top 80, either pound per pound all time

this is as good as he gets.

[Borinken25]

#22 at welterweight, #24 at lightweight. Nowhere near my top-50 pound-for-pound.

Not even neart the top 80, either pound per pound all time

this is as good as he gets.

Not according to ESPN top 50 p4p. Get this they have DLH ranked at 39 above Pernell Whitaker and Carlos Monzon. Wow! And I thought those guys knew at least a little bit about boxing.

The final list
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Louis
5. Willie Pep
6. Roberto Duran
7. Benny Leonard
8. Jack Johnson
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Sam Langford
11. Joe Gans
12. Sugar Ray Leonard
13. Harry Greb
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Jimmy Wilde
16. Gene Tunney
17. Mickey Walker
18. Archie Moore
19. Stanley Ketchel
20. George Foreman
21. Tony Canzoneri
22. Barney Ross
23. Jimmy McLarnin
24. Julio Cesar Chavez
25. Marcel Cerdan
26. Joe Frazier
27. Ezzard Charles
28. Jake LaMotta
29. Sandy Saddler
30. Terry McGovern
31. Billy Conn
32. Jose Napoles
33. Ruben Olivares
34. Emile Griffith
35. Marvin Hagler
36. Eder Jofre
37. Thomas Hearns
38. Larry Holmes
39. Oscar De La Hoya
40. Evander Holyfield
41. Ted "Kid" Lewis
42. Alexis Arguello
43. Marco Antonio Barrera
44. Pernell Whitaker
45. Carlos Monzon
46. Roy Jones Jr
47. Bernard Hopkins
48. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
49. Erik Morales
50. Mike Tyson