Marciano 1952 vs. Liston 1959

[I Feel Fine]

Dear raisin brand… or granberry, whatever your name is…

What is it that you don’t get about Ali training for a 4 round fight for one guy and training for the fight of his life against Liston? He said even before the fight “I’m not thinking about Doug Jones, I’m thinking about Sonny Liston.” I already exposed this BS point you make over and over again in only my second post ever on this forum. Doug Jones lost a decision to Zora Folley and four months later knocked Folley out, yet Ali can’t win a close decision against Doug Jones and a year later come back and beat Sonny Liston? A fighter can change in the course of a few fights, especially a young fighter. The Folley-Machen is just one example... look at Buster Douglas, look at whoever you want to look at... how you train a certain way for a fight makes a big difference. How seriously do you think he trained for Jones in comparison to Liston? Jesus... Ali said he thought the fight would go four rounds, he was visibly gassed after the 6th round, yet he threw fornicating twice as many punches against Liston and showed absolutely no fatigue going into the 6th and last round of their fight.

Who gives a shit if Ali never knocked down Cooper? Punching power isn’t the be all and end all of who wins a fight.

I see we accept excuses for Floyd Patterson but not for Ali coming into a fight at 17-0, trained to KO his opponent in 4-5 rounds.

I’ve stated in the past that I don’t believe Liston was legitimately KO’d in the rematch.

You’re seriously an illiterate. I wrote a whole paragraph talking about how I would not use Williams and Folley as examples because they were older when Ali fought them. You somehow missed a whole paragraph. What a retard... The point I was making is you can't look at one common opponent and use that to say one guy is better than the other... and I also pointed out that when Ali was young he struggled with an opponent Machen beat clearly, and when Machen was old he struggled with opponents Ali beat clearly. Knowledgable boxing fans know to take into consideration the age and experience of a fighter, yet you don't... I wonder why...

Will you shut the fornicate up about this god damned Ali industry. What Ali industry? You don’t give Ali credit for a single fornicating thing he did in his career. Not a single thing. And yet there’s an “Ali industry” because not everyone believes that all of Ali’s victories and achievements were tainted by some bullshit that his haters come up with? Who gives a fornicate about Doug Jones? He lost, and he lost to a fighter who trained for four round fight. He wouldn’t have won a rematch against a more mature Ali. Stop blowing Jones and start watching the other 60 fights in Ali’s career.

Not to mention this thread had nothing at all to do with Ali or Doug Jones...

[BoxBuzz]

I finally figured this out.....Ali must have had his way in his wilder days with granberry's love interest at some point, destroying his one shot at true happiness. There is no other earthly explanation for this.

Or he just likes a good old fashioned argument.

[granberry]

Ignorance of Liston is a PREREQUISITE to being a member of the Ali Industry.

IFEEL FINE ---or is his name I FEEL EMBARRASSED TO BE SUCH AN OBVIOUS REGURGITATOR OF ALI INDUSTRY TALKING POINTS

in his clueless state,

insists that the Liston who fought Cleveland Williams was the same as the Liston who showed up with rolls of fat on the back of his neck and his lower back to "fight" Ali.


The two fake Liston-Ali fights are a big problem for the Ali industry.

Apparently the newest talking point is that Liston was as good as he ever was against Ali.

Which requires that the regurgitator of the talking points be totally ignorant of Liston---as IFEEL is.

Ignorance of Liston is a PREREQUISITE to being a member of the Ali Industry.

[I Feel Fine]

Ignorance of Liston is a PREREQUISITE to being a member of the Ali Industry.

IFEEL FINE ---or is his name I FEEL EMBARRASSED TO BE SUCH AN OBVIOUS REGURGITATOR OF ALI INDUSTRY TALKING POINTS

in his clueless state,

insists that the Liston who fought Cleveland Williams was the same as the Liston who showed up with rolls of fat on the back of his neck and his lower back to "fight" Ali.


The two fake Liston-Ali fights are a big problem for the Ali industry.

Apparently the newest talking point is that Liston was as good as he ever was against Ali.

Which requires that the regurgitator of the talking points be totally ignorant of Liston---as IFEEL is.

Ignorance of Liston is a PREREQUISITE to being a member of the Ali Industry.

You're a dickless idiot. You can't answer a straight question.

The fat on the back of his neck? He weighed only 5 1/2 pounds more in the first Ali fight than he did in his fights with Williams. He weighed three pounds more than he did in the Patterson rematch. You'd have to be a on crack to tell me that Liston on that night wouldn't have beaten Williams or Patterson.

Watching the fight, and seeing Liston getting Ali hurt and trying to finish him in the 3rd round, and going after Ali in the round where he couldn't see... it's a bit of a tough sell to say he was throwing the fight. And why limit yourself to Liston, anyway, maybe Foreman and Frazier threw their fights with Ali too... maybe his whole career was a Masonic conspiracy

Ignorance of Sonny Liston? I think-in fact-I guarantee you that I have seen more Sonny Liston fights that you have.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

He weighed only 5 1/2 pounds more in the first Ali fight than he did in his fights with Williams.

ya all 5 1/2 pounds were fat. liston was horrible rusty entering the ali fight , he had fought just 8 rounds in the past FOUR YEARS!!!!! his timing was WAYY off. he was 32 years old at least(more like 34 realistically, his birthdate was wrong) and clearly the lack of ring exposure and his decline of age hurt him. liston was much slower in the ali fights than he looked 1958-1960. he showed up at 218lb out of shape, he hadnt trained as hard. he didnt look as ripped. he was extremeley rusty. he was aging. he was still very dangerous, but not the peak sonny liston

[Marciano Frazier]

"The Liston who fought Ali did not look much different from the Liston who beat Williams and Machen. "

Not to you, since you don't know the basics of the subject.

The Machen-Liston fight was 12 rounds.

But that doesn't matter to an "authority" like yourself.

LOL

I nominate you to take gasbag Bert Sugar's place when he gives up the ghost.

My apologies, it was a 12 round fight. I have seen Liston-Machen, however. If you want evidence that I have, Liston lost points for low blows... and any question you want to ask me about Liston-Machen I'd be willing to answer to show that I've seen the fight.

Liston on that night was not much better than the Liston whose ass was handed to him by Clay.

I think you know where you can shove the rest of your post.

It his hilarious that IFEEL FINE, an eager candidate for the position of drunken Bert Sugar's successor as top incompetent boxing "authority" and "expert"

brings up Eddie Machen.

Eddie Machen beat the hell out of DOUG JONES, winning a lopsided decision and hurting Jones several times.

In comparison, DOUG JONES beat the hell out of Ali, staggering Ali as soon as their fight started with a right hand.

Ali showed he had had no punching power throughout his fight with Jones, although Ali was a head taller and 25 pounds heavier than Jones.

Based on their fights with Jones, Machen was a far superior fighter to Ali.

He hurt Jones, which Ali could not

and Machen beat Jones thoroughly which Ali did not.

Ali "won" against Jones when he was given a ridiculous "decision" after Jones beat him thoroughly.

And that was only TWO FIGHTS before Ali was supposedly able to beat Liston.


The TWELVE ROUND Liston-Machen fight was equal to a KO win for Liston.

Machen embarrassed himself by running away as fast as he could for the entire fight.

When Liston's body shots broke him in half, Machen claimed he was hit low, which he was not.

The rests he was awarded were the only reason he stayed the distance.

He lost the fight by an embarrassingly lopsided margin.

Liston's condition was shown by his energy still left after the fight as he taunted Machen while they waited for the decision by feinting at him and moving around him.

IFEEL FINE's clueless comments on that fight, including displaying his ignorance by stating it was a 15 round fight,

qualify him for today's MOST LIKELY TO SUCCEED DRUNKEN BERT SUGAR award.

Keep the crap coming.

I remember you. You were around here a couple years ago by the name of "Terap." Banned, as I recall.

Anyway, Ali clearly beat Jones fair and square, and it is right there on the tape. Now, it was a poor performance and he struggled more than you would expect a fighter on his level to struggle against someone like Jones, but A. he did still win, and it was no robbery, and B. most every great champion has had a performance like that, such as Louis having a close decision against Bob Pastor the first time, barely outpointing Godoy the first time, being wobbled and floored by Galento, etc.

[I Feel Fine]

He weighed only 5 1/2 pounds more in the first Ali fight than he did in his fights with Williams.

ya all 5 1/2 pounds were fat. liston was horrible rusty entering the ali fight , he had fought just 8 rounds in the past FOUR YEARS!!!!! his timing was WAYY off. he was 32 years old at least(more like 34 realistically, his birthdate was wrong) and clearly the lack of ring exposure and his decline of age hurt him. liston was much slower in the ali fights than he looked 1958-1960. he showed up at 218lb out of shape, he hadnt trained as hard. he didnt look as ripped. he was extremeley rusty. he was aging. he was still very dangerous, but not the peak sonny liston

I love the anti-Ali industry... ... when Ali comes in 20 pounds overweight and at 34 years of age against Jimmy Young it doesn't matter, has no bearing, but when Liston comes in 5 pounds overweight and was probably 34, all bets are off.

Liston was not all that different. Maybe he wasn't 100%, but he wasn't 70% either. He would have beaten any of his other top opponents on that night.

I would hardly call him out of shape, either. He threw a lot of punches. Maybe if it had gone 9-10 you might have seen some fatigue, but he never looked gassed in the 6 rounds of actual fighting.

As for this debate... I suggest one of you guys open a thread if you want to continue this discussion, it has nothing to do with Liston-Marciano.

[granberry]

I love the anti-Ali industry... ... when Ali comes in 20 pounds overweight and at 34 years of age against Jimmy Young it doesn't matter, has no bearing, but when Liston comes in 5 pounds overweight and was probably 34, all bets are off.

Liston was not all that different. Maybe he wasn't 100%, but he wasn't 70% either. He would have beaten any of his other top opponents on that night.

I would hardly call him out of shape, either. He threw a lot of punches. Maybe if it had gone 9-10 you might have seen some fatigue, but he never looked gassed in the 6 rounds of actual fighting.

IFEEL EMBARRASED TO BE SUCH AN OBVIOUS ALI INDUSTRY SHILL

loves the Ali Industry.

For these clueless stooges

it doesn't matter that

Cleveland Williams was a physical cripple when he fought Ali

that Patterson's cornerman Dan Florio tried to give Patterson chiropractic adjustments to his bad back between rounds

that Archie Moore wes going on 60 years old when he "fought" Ali

that Liston had rolls of fat on each side of his lower back and the back of his neck and his so-called weight of 218 was more like 230

that Leon Spinks was a novice who only had 7 pro fights and couldn't even survive for three minutes of the first round against Gerrie Coetzee JUST AFTER fighting THIRTY rounds against Ali Industry product Ali

that Zora Folley was an old tired fighter ten years past his best when he fought Ali

that Jimmy Young exposed for 15 rounds that Ali didn't have a clue how to fight a counter puncher and laughed in Ali's face while he did it

that glass chinned mediocrity Ken Norton fought Ali for a total of 39 rounds and Ali still hasn't beaten him

that overweight lightheavyweight Doug Jones (who lost by a wide margin to Harold Johnson) beat the piss out of Ali

that 185 pound Henry Cooper knocked Ali down with his left hook

that after (and before) his fake "one punch first round knockout" over Liston, Ali demonstrated that he had no punching power against Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, Patterson, Chuvalo, Terrell, Frazier, Norton (3 times), novice Leon Spinks, etc etc etc

that Ali's career was riddled with phony decisions and officiating in his favor, including fake "wins" over Jimmy Young, Ken Norton, Doug Jones, Billy Daniels, Ron Lyle, etc etc etc

That the so-called "referees" did not make Ali go to a neutral corner when Archie Moore, Liston, Bonavena, etc were "down"

that Ali fouled like mad and was never even warned for his trying to twist his opponents heads off, hitting across the face with his elbow and forearm, "jabbing" with a wide open glove, trying to push down with his forearm into the area where the neck joins the shoulder in clinches, going for many rounds at a time without throwing a single punch, etc etc etc

Ali Industry shills MUST overlook all the obvious crap in Ali's "career"

which is not hard for them

since they are clueless when it comes to the subject of boxing.

[BoxBuzz]

I distinctly saw a wobbled Frazier in the early goings of fight two. Ali had pretty good pop on occasion. You know it, I know it and terap knew it.

He was pretty much a safety first fighter and took few chances.

granberry, you need to find a new song.

[I Feel Fine]

Yeah, Johnson went down against Ketchell, Dempsey had Tunney, Tunney got a long count with Dempsey, Louis was down against Galento, Marciano was down against Moore, Patterson was creamed by Johannson, Liston was a quitter, Ali was down against Cooper and lost to Spinks, Frazier got KO’d by Foreman, Foreman fought dumb against Ali, Holmes was put on his ass by Snipes, Tyson had Douglas, Holyfield was down against Cooper, Lewis against McCall… I guess every Heavyweight champion pretty much sucked, eh?

Ali never got away with anything that Lennox Lewis didn't get away with. They could have sent Ali to the dressing room inbetween knock downs, he still would have won those fights against Bonavena and Moore. I see we accept excuses for Liston at 34, but not for Ali at 34 against Young and Norton...

Same garbage, different day with the Ali haters

[pundit]

There are still people replying to this certified idiot.

[I Feel Fine]

There are still people replying to this certified idiot.

Point taken. I'll stop replying from here.

[granberry]

Ignorance of Liston is a PREREQUISITE to being a member of the Ali Industry.

IFEEL FINE ---or is his name I FEEL EMBARRASSED TO BE SUCH AN OBVIOUS REGURGITATOR OF ALI INDUSTRY TALKING POINTS

in his clueless state,

insists that the Liston who fought Cleveland Williams was the same as the Liston who showed up with rolls of fat on the back of his neck and his lower back to "fight" Ali.


The two fake Liston-Ali fights are a big problem for the Ali industry.

Apparently the newest talking point is that Liston was as good as he ever was against Ali.

Which requires that the regurgitator of the talking points be totally ignorant of Liston---as IFEEL is.

Ignorance of Liston is a PREREQUISITE to being a member of the Ali Industry.

You're a dickless idiot.

Ignorance of Sonny Liston? I think-in fact-I guarantee you that I have seen more Sonny Liston fights that you have.

Dickless idiot and hardworking Ali Industry clone IFEELFINE

proclaims that he is an "expert" on Sonny Liston.

[granberry]

I distinctly saw a wobbled Frazier in the early goings of fight two. Ali had pretty good pop on occasion. You know it, I know it and terap knew it.

He was pretty much a safety first fighter and took few chances.

granberry, you need to find a new song.

Buzz,

You clueless Ali Industry clones need to get a new song.

But you never will.

Tell us again how great Ali looked beating crippled Cleveland Williams.

[HomicideHenry]

Ali when he had more speed wasn't a one shot artist, it was the volume of his punches...but as he got older, slower, he became more flat footed, and could drive from the floor more force behind his blows. This was evident in his fight with Ron Lyle---after the Foreman, Wepner bouts he relied more on his ability to take punishment to get by. The Lyle fight was all but dead even until Ali came on strong in the 11th and stopped Lyle by TKO.

That's why I have never ever taken the second Liston fight seriously. Liston could take hard shots. He proved that when he fought guys like a PRIME Cleveland Williams. There is no way in hell Ali could have stopped Liston by a kayo, he just didn't have the power. As far as the first fight, Liston barely trained for Ali, believing all he needed was four rounds to dispatch of him---and the end result was Liston being completely embarassed and quitting on his stool.

I remember a quote Liston said to Ali in a letter "If you can go 8 rounds with me pretty boy, I'll give you the title!"

Liston was a man of his word, as he didn't come out for the 8th.

[granberry]

The Lyle fight was all but dead even until Ali came on strong in the 11th and stopped Lyle by TKO.

Ali rested on the ropes and didn't throw a punch for most of the fight.

I'd hate to see how much you would score it in Ali's favor if he had done something other than rest on the ropes without throwing any punches.

Are you any relation to the Don King's Maryland "referee" who gave Ali the first TEN rounds of the Jimmy Young-Ali fight?

The ending of the Lyle-Ali fight was a farce.

Lyle was not down. He covering up in a corner--the same as Ali had done for the first ten rounds.

Ali was hurt much more obviously in the 11th round of his loss to Frazier, staggered like a drunk from one end of the ring to the other, yet the ref in that fight did not stop it.

Lyle's cornerman Chickie Ferraro said to Don Dunphy after the stinking ending of the the Lyle-Ali fight,

"It wasn't kosher."

And Chickie Ferraro was not taliing about the hotdogs they were selling at ringside.

[HomicideHenry]

Well I do have to say Lyle fought a smart fight as he wouldn't be fooled into fighting Ali when he would do the rope a dope. But I think give or take another minute Lyle would have hit the canvas, his legs were going rubbery.

[granberry]

Well I do have to say Lyle fought a smart fight as he wouldn't be fooled into fighting Ali when he would do the rope a dope. But I think give or take another minute Lyle would have hit the canvas, his legs were going rubbery.

Your "minute" NEVER HAPPENED.

It is amazing how many posters here cannot differentiate between actual happenings

and made up horsesh*t.

[HomicideHenry]

I said HAD another minute happened (which it did not) Lyle would have been knocked out. I never said a minute did pass. But you cant deny the fact Lyle was all but out on his feet and both men were exhausted.

[pundit]

I said HAD another minute happened (which it did not) Lyle would have been knocked out. I never said a minute did pass. But you cant deny the fact Lyle was all but out on his feet and both men were exhausted.

..... and another fellow who still bothers replying to this certified idiot.

[granberry]

I said HAD another minute happened (which it did not) Lyle would have been knocked out. I never said a minute did pass. But you cant deny the fact Lyle was all but out on his feet and both men were exhausted.

..... and another fellow who still bothers replying to this certified idiot.

What do you consider yourself pundit?

(Other than a troll who posts to displays his animosity toward another poster).

[elmersalsa]

Stronger doesn't equal better.

well dec marciano happened to be one of the strongest hws ever and im not talking about p4p either. i cant think of a heavweight that liston fought that was stronger than marciano with the possible exception of muhammad ali. cleveland williams? maybe but he didnt apply his strength like marciano did

How about Nino Valdez? He was very strong. Liston KO'd him in 3. Marciano has never beaten a fighter that strong or that big.

[elmersalsa]

Liston beat stronger fighters than Marciano, and in their prime.

this post puzzles me. ur saying the fighters he beat were better than rocky marciano?

NO. I am not saying that they were better than Rocky. I am saying that the top fighters that Liston beat were in their primes, while Marciano made his name with legends that were on their way out. Even though that those legends were hard to beat, even when they were past their very best, but the Eddie Machens, the Zora Folleys and the Cleveland Williams and maybe the Floyd Pattersons would have beat the crap out of Louis, Charles, Moore and Walcott when they fought Marciano.

[elmersalsa]

Liston would have been too big for Rocky. I pick Liston by stoppage in 8 rounds. Too bad that he is remembered more of the 2 Ali fights. But from 1958 to 1962, Liston beat stronger fighters than Marciano, and in their prime.

Heavyweight ratings: I pick Marciano over Liston
pound per pound ratings: The same
Head to Head matchup: Liston...Too big.

Tell us who was "stronger than Marciano."

LOL

In my opinion, Big Cat Williams was stronger than Marciano.
in my opinion, Nino Valdez was stronger than Marciano.
In my opinion, Liston was bigger, stronger, faster and more technically sound than Marciano. Maybe Rocky hit harder, but Liston had a granite chin. Liston of the late 50s was as good as it gets.

[elmersalsa]

Seeing the Clay vs Liston fight again, the fight was very competitive and close. I had Ali winning by one point.