Boxrec Hall of Fame Ballot

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 08 May 2007, 15:32

Ezzard wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:The first 25 to go to the hall:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Joe Gans
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb
8. Sam Langford
9. Jack Johnson
10. Benny Leonard
11. Tony Canzoneri
12. Ezzard Charles
13. Jimmy Wilde
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Archie Moore
16. Carlos Monzon
17. Jack Dempsey
18. Marvin Hagler
19. Sandy Saddler
20. Alexis Arguello
21. Stanley Ketchel
22. Eder Jofre
23. Barney Ross
24. Terry McGovern
25. Mickey Walker
Elmer

Mot of those guys are already in. Check the thread at the top of the page.

OK. Let me give the next 25:

These fighters had their last fight way before 1997.

1. Emile Griffith
2. Ike Williams
3. Gene Tunney
4. Pascual Perez
5. Panama Al Brown
6. Kid Gavilan
7. Kid Chocolate
8. Pascual Perez
9. Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles
10. Joe Walcott
11. Salvador Sanchez
12. Bob Fitzsimmons
13. Ruben Olivares
14. Tommy Loughran
15. Dick Tiger
16. Michael Spinks
17. Carmen Basilio
18. Joe Frazier
19. Maxie Rosenbloom
20. Freddie Miller
21. Pancho Villa
22. Billy Conn
23. Wilfredo Gomez
24. Ted "Kid" Lewis
25. Abe Attell

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 08 May 2007, 17:02

Elmer,
Tunney,Napoles,Sanchez, and Fitzimmons have aready been elected in previous rounds. You had Pacual Perez listed twice.

So right now you have named 20 eligible fighters. You can name 5 more fighters. You don't have to do your whole list over. Just list the 5 fighters that you would like to add.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 11 May 2007, 13:56

In hopes of generating some interest in this thread, since most people prefer to rehash the endless heavyweight scenarios every couple months. I thought I'd give an explanation of why I made my picks. So here's the first 5.

ABE ATTELL. 29-3-4 or possibly 30-3-4 in World Title Fights. Maybe the best ever in that regard.

JIMMY BARRY. Unbeaten World Champion in 70 fights. Barry was said to be an excellent boxer with tremendous power for a little man. He also dominated most of the bouts on his record that ended in draws or no contests.

PANAMA AL BROWN. Fought till he was over 40, and was never stopped in 170 fights. Excellent winning pct, and he also went 16-1 (possibly 17-1) in World Title bouts.

MARCEL CERDAN. Outstanding boxer with an incredible record against much better opposition than is sometimes claimed (mainly by Americans).

ANTONIO CERVANTES. Excellent boxer-puncher ring technician who went 18-3 in World Title fights. Ko'd Hall Of Famer Niccolino Locche, Alfonso Frazer and Carlos Giminez twice each, Rodolfo Gonzalez, and decisioned Esteban DeJesus.

Maybe later I'll post my next 5.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 12 May 2007, 08:46

Decagon,
Tunney,Sanchez,Arguello,Foster,Ross,& Napoles are the fighters that have to be taken out. They have all been elected previously.
You can vote for as many as 6 more guys to replace them.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 12 May 2007, 09:10

Ezzard wrote:Seamus' previous posts in the ballot have influenced my selection for Packy McFarland.

I'd like to raise the following fighters as must haves this round.

Emile Griffith

A great fighter with tremendous skill who came back from defeats and personal demons time after time. That shows the mentality of a great fighter. he cannot be overlooked any longer.

Joe Frazier

The guy beat Ali. You can whine about primes as much as you like but Ali was as clsoe to his prime as he ever was. Frazier's achievement is somehow lost on many.

these 2 deserve your votes. Do the right thing...

Well said.

You cannot argue with such sentiments.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 13 May 2007, 22:25

Decagon, that ballot is fine. Everyone on it is eligible.
So far the voting has been interesting. Lets keep the votes coming. This is a lot of fun. As Seamus pointed, it's a nice change of pace to talk about fighters of all weight classes once in a while, not just the heavyweights.

iceman21287 · Post by **iceman21287** » 14 May 2007, 01:32

Abe Attell
Jimmy Barry
Carmen Basilio
Wilfred Benitez
Jack Britton
Panama Al Brown
Kid Chocolate
Jim Corbett
"Nonpareil" Jack Dempsey
Joe Frazier
Kid Gavilan
Wilfredo Gomez
Emile Griffith
Johnny Kilbane
Jake LaMotta
Ray Leonard
Jack McAuliffe
Packey McFarland
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Floyd Patterson
Tommy Ryan
John L. Sullivan
Dick Tiger
"Barbados" Joe Walcott
Harry Wills

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 14 May 2007, 14:11

Just a reminder, time is running out to vote. The deadline is Noon CDT on Tuesday.
Make sure to vote if you haven't already. Remember, it's your civic duty.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 14 May 2007, 14:19

We've only had 10 people vote so far I believe. Come on guys, Box Buzz, Joe Jeanette hasn't gotten a single vote, Pundit, Billy Conn needs votes, Brockton, no one has picked Jersey Joe. This is the Box Rec Hall Of Fame, it should mean something.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 14 May 2007, 14:35

Seamus wrote:We've only had 10 people vote so far I believe. Come on guys, Box Buzz, Joe Jeanette hasn't gotten a single vote, Pundit, Billy Conn needs votes, Brockton, no one has picked Jersey Joe. This is the Box Rec Hall Of Fame, it should mean something.

I feel that my vote would probably contribute to people NOT making it into the HOF (I wouldn't vote for Frazier, Griffith), while the fighters I would like to see in seem to have little chances.

Hence it seems more productive if I stay on the sidelines for this round.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 14 May 2007, 17:20

And to think, I was the only one who responded to your 10 Greatest Classical Composers.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 15 May 2007, 11:52

pundit wrote:
Seamus wrote:We've only had 10 people vote so far I believe. Come on guys, Box Buzz, Joe Jeanette hasn't gotten a single vote, Pundit, Billy Conn needs votes, Brockton, no one has picked Jersey Joe. This is the Box Rec Hall Of Fame, it should mean something.
I feel that my vote would probably contribute to people NOT making it into the HOF (I wouldn't vote for Frazier, Griffith), while the fighters I would like to see in seem to have little chances.

Hence it seems more productive if I stay on the sidelines for this round.

Pundit

I think Griffith and Frazier are two guys who deserve to be in BUT I wouldn't want them to get in simply because you didn't vote. Your fighters might not get in this time but by voting you will raise others' awareness and maybe even make them ediut their own lists.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 15 May 2007, 12:23

Alll right then. Here is my list. I included Griffith an Frazier after all, there is little point in these votes if noone gets selected.

Hope this comes still timely.

Carmen Basilio
Wilfred Benitez
Antonio Cervantes
Kid Chocolate
Billy Conn

James J. Corbett
Tiger Flowers
Joe Frazier
Kid Gavilan
Emile Griffith

Wilfredo Gomez
Harold Johnson
Sugar Ray Leonard
Tommy Loughran
Sonny Liston

Packey McFarland
Kid Norfolk
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Aaron Pryor
Ruben Olivares

Carlos Ortiz
Michael Spinks
John L. Sullivan
Barbados Joe Walcott
Carlos Zarate

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 15 May 2007, 15:22

The results are in! The following have been elected as new members of the BoxRec Hall of Fame:

Ray Leonard
Emile Griffith
Joe Frazier

Overall, 81 different fighters received at least one vote!
11 people voted. A fighter needed a minimum of 8 votes to be elected.
Here is a rundown of the voting:

10 votes
Ray Leonard
Emile Griffith

9 votes
Joe Frazier

No one had 8 Votes

7 votes
Kid Gavilan
Kid Chocolate
Packy McFarland

6 votes
Abe Attell
Wilfredo Gomez
Rueben Olivares
Carlos Ortiz
Carlos Zarate
Billy Conn
Carmen Basilio
Marcel Cerdan

5 votes
Fighting Harada
Michael Spinks
John L Sullivan
Ike Williams
Panama Al Brown

4 votes
Wilfred Benitez
Sonny Liston
Jimmy McClarnin
Terry McGovern
Tommy Ryan
Ted Kid Lewis
Tommy Loughran
Barbadoes Joe Walcott

3 votes
George Dixon
Johnny Kilbane
Aaron Pryor
Dick Tiger
Antonio Cervantes
Jake La Motta
Jimmy Barry
Tommy Gibbons
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Pascual Perez
Jack Britton
Charley Burley
Tiger Flowers
James J. Corbett

2 votes
Harold Johnson
Nino Benvenuti
Vincente Saldivar
Cocoa Kid
Eusebio Pedrosa
Les Darcy
Khaosai Galaxy
Pancho Villa
Fritzie Zivic
Johnny Dundee
Lloyd Marshall
Freddie Miller
Maxsie Rosenbloom
Nino Benvenuti

1 vote
Gene Fullmer
Young Corbett III
Jim Driscoll
Mike Gibbons
John Henry Lewis
Kid McCoy
Mike McCallum
Lew Jenkins
Joe Lynch
Benny Lynch
Rodrigo Valdez
Danny Lopez
Jack Blackburn
Dave Holly
Nino Locche
Eddie Booker
Jack Chase
Chang Jung Koo
Holman Williams
Tommy Burns
Miguel Canto
Luis Rodriguez
"Nonpareil" Jack Dempsey
Jack McAulliffe
Floyd Patterson
Harry Wills
Kid Norfolk

Thanks to Seamus,Borinken25,Ezzard,expug,TheTool,J-C,elmer salsa,Decagon,iceman, and pundit for participating.

Your comments about the voting would be appreciated.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 16 May 2007, 04:36

I think 3 people getting in is good. To let too many in would only devlaue the whole idea. Now with 3 new slots to fill some others will get in next time.

I think this one also shows that people on this forum are open to listening to other view points.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 17 May 2007, 12:55

It looks like Ezzard's eloquent plea to elect Griffith and Frazier worked.

The guys that were selected were pretty deserving. They were all at the top of my list.
The voting was as always interesting. 3 guys missed being elected by just one vote.
It's the second time in a row that this has happened to Kid Chocolate!
Kid Gavilan and Packy McFarland seem to be gradually gaining support and also just missed by 1 vote.

In the 4th election Wilfredo Gomez and Carlos Ortiz missed by just one vote. However, this time they each lost ground and only got 6 votes and missed by 2 votes.

I guess we all have our candidates that we can't understand are getting passed over. For me the guy who is most deserving that hasn't got in is Michael Spinks.
He came along when the lightheavyweight division was loaded and he dominated it. For icing on the cake he beat a declining but still good Larry Holmes for the heavyweight title.
Spinks actually was almost voted in earlier (the 2nd election I believe) but doesn't seem to be gaining enough support.

JAHamilton77 · Post by **JAHamilton77** » 20 May 2007, 09:13

Grrr I missed the vote, oh well thats what I get for not checking in on PotP forum more often

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 20 May 2007, 09:32

It eludes me why Carmen Basilio hasn't been voted in long ago.

Michael Spinks and Billy Conn are other highly deserving fighters who strangely don't get the necessary votes.

John L Sullivan and Jim Corbett also belong into the HOF full stop, and be it only out of respect for the history of the sport.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 21 May 2007, 10:27

I've had Panama Al Brown, Les Darcy, Kid McCoy, Packey McFarland, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, Pascual Perez and Tommy Ryan on my very first ballot and I'm still surprised by the lack of votes they get.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 21 May 2007, 10:40

Seamus wrote:I've had Panama Al Brown, Les Darcy, Kid McCoy, Packey McFarland, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, Pascual Perez and Tommy Ryan on my very first ballot and I'm still surprised by the lack of votes they get.

I had Philadelphia Jack O'Brian on my list too, but I can'tsee why he should be voted in before Spinks or Conn.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 21 May 2007, 11:11

I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm actually not all that keen on Michael Spinks. I've watched most of his fights, and for a 6-3 LHW, his defense wasen't particularly good, he almost didn't seem to care because at LHW not many could hurt him. In addition to that, he only won 31 fights, and two of those were gift decisions vs Eddie Davis and Larry Holmes in there 2nd fight, so in my mind he should be more like 29-3.

I'm alot more impressed with Philadelphia Jack O'Brien's resume than either Spinks or Conn. My guy Young Corbett III, who's rapidly becoming one of my new favorites, took down Billy Conn the first time they fought, and he was over 32 at the time. Conn was one of three Hall Of Famers Corbett III beat at MW, along with future World LHW Champion Gus Lesnevich, who he KO'd.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 22 May 2007, 12:07

Just thought I would talk about the guys that Seamus and Pundit have been talking about.

Michael Spinks- What really makes him standout is that he came a long with the lightheavyweight division was deep. By the time he moved up to heavyweight, he was unquestionably the best lightheavy in the world. How often does that happen? I mean how often does a guy come a long when his division is very strong and conquer it convincingly? Not very often. I can't think of any fighter that hasn't been voted in that can make that claim. In fact many of the fighters already voted in can't make that claim.
Add to it to the fact that Spinks became the first lightheavyweight champion to win the heavyweight title. Even if you think Holmes should have got the decison in the rematch, Spinks still had quite a career.

No, Spinks didn't have a lot of of fights. The quantity of wins should count for something. However, the quality of wins is much more important. This is what really makes Spinks standout. There is also a precedent for us electing fighters with out a lot fights. James J. Jeffries had less fights than Spinks.

As for the other guys, Young Corbett III, Brown, Darcy,McCoy,McFarland,O'Brien,Perez,Ryan,Basilio,Conn,Corbett, and Sullivan.
Almost all of these guys fought quite a long time ago. There were other fighters who fought during these fighters eras who did get voted already. There are some great fighters in the 1950's, 60's,70's,and 80's who deserved consideration too.

So far their hasn't been a huge bias towards fighters in particular eras and hopefully that remains so.
You can make a case for almost all of these guys.
My personal opinions:
Young Corbett III- I too am beginning to seriously consider him. He is a bit underrated.
Panama Al Brown-Another guy who I am now considering that I haven't voted for in the past.
Les Darcy-Unfortunately, his career ended prematurely when he died at 21. We really don't know how good he would have been. He did accomplish a lot given his age. however, this might sound cold, but I think a fighter should only be judged by what he actually did do. So though he did a lot given his age, whathe actaully did accomplish simply doesn't stack up against several other guys who have been elected.

Kid McCoy- Another possibility.

Packy McFarland-I have voted for him the last two times and will again next time. He does seem to be gaining ground. There is a chance he will make it next time.
Phildadelphia Jack O'Brien- Another guy who I am now seriously considering.

Pascual Perez-It's tough for a Flyweight to make it. He is on my radar but there are just too many other guys in front of him for now.
Tommy Ryan - His career is difficult to evaluate. Holding off voting for him for now.

Carmen Basilio- Staring to consider voting for him now.
Billy Conn-also starting to consider voting for him now as well.
James J. Corbett- He is one of the "Middle Tier"Heavyweight champions. I have been voting in the "Top Tier" champions so far. Because he was a "pioneer", I will vote him in a head of the other "Middle Tier" heavyweight champions. I'm just not sure if his time has come yet. There are still so many great fighters in other weight classes that haven't got in yet.

John L Sullivan- His career was hard to evaluate. He simply didn't have many opponents that we can use as a barometer. Against the only one that he lost to, (Corbett) he was past his best. Still you just can't ignore someone who was the champion for 10 years. I sort of made a compromise. I decided when the voting started that I wouldn't vote him in before the "Top Tier" heavyweight Champions., but I would vote him in above the "Middle Tier" Heavyweight champions. However, by the 3rd election, most of them were voted in and I started voting for Sullivan. I suspect it will be a while before he gets in. He got 5 of 11 votes last time and 6 out of 11 votes the time before.

One thing that makes it hard to predict who make it is that we don't know who just missed it on the other people's ballots. I will mention that some other guys that I am also considering are Terry McGovern,Freddie Welsh,Tiger Flowers, Eusebio Pedroza and Miguel Canto. Since 3 guys got elected last time, I will only add 3 new guys.

You could make a case for all of these guys making it. It's tough because we are talking about all of the weight divisions over a period of over 100 years. Only 34 fighters have made it so far.