ALLTIME AMERICAN GREATS WHO NEVER FOUGHT OUTSIDE USA!!

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » 17 May 2007, 05:44

Wow. Nice work mate

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 17 May 2007, 05:52

america has long been the epicenter of world boxing!!"

Not any more!

Germany and Japan have legitimate claims to that accolade.

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » 17 May 2007, 05:54

oliverfennell wrote:
america has long been the epicenter of world boxing!!"
Not any more!

Germany and Japan have legitimate claims to that accolade.

Quantity doesn't equal quality or exposure mate. Just out of interest how many Japanese fights have you seen compared to US fights?

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 17 May 2007, 06:31

Marlin wrote:
oliverfennell wrote:
america has long been the epicenter of world boxing!!"
Not any more!

Germany and Japan have legitimate claims to that accolade.
Quantity doesn't equal quality or exposure mate. Just out of interest how many Japanese fights have you seen compared to US fights?

Good point, but I've been to both countries and Japanese boxing is HUGE; much bigger than in America.

The only reason we in the west don't see many Asian fights is almost certainly because the general audience wouldn't be interested in "the other", NOT because of a lack of quality.

In Japan, everybody and their mothers know the world champions, who fight for WBC and WBA belts only, and on terrestrial TV. The reason Japanese or German boxers don't travel much is because they don't need to. They can make their millions at home, in front of capacity audiences, and are famous throughout their land.

And look at Ruslan Chagaev - ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND people watched his victory parade in Tashkent. OK, that's partly to do with him being the first Uzbeki world champ, but when you get those sort of numbers giving you love, you wouldn't feel any great need to "break" America.

So in conclusion, yes, America is still CULTURALLY the epicentre of boxing, but not financially. People who say boxing is dying are only looking at it from an American perspective. It is THE biggest sport in Thailand, is flourishing in Japan and Germany, remains huge in Mexico, is growing rapidly in Russia and is even improving in Britain.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 17 May 2007, 06:35

God, this really gets stale. Boxing really does draw some dull jingoists. You just don't get this talking about arts, film, literature.

Taylor saying he won't ever fight abroad doesn't look so great when there are fine fighters in his division abroad (Abraham, Sturm) and world champions a division up that he'll have to fight if he's going to be a 2-weight champ.

Allan Green, I recall, took some legit stick for deciding (for a time) to drop a division because "of those Europeans."

I really think boxing is quite paranoid and xenophobic. Otherwise, there are too many trying their utmost to protect a tradition that's not wholly in line with what is happening.

The future of boxing is in the bringing together of different cultures. If that happens in America, cool. Likewise if it can happen in the UK or Germany or Japan.

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » 17 May 2007, 06:36

oliverfennell wrote:
Marlin wrote:
oliverfennell wrote: Not any more!

Germany and Japan have legitimate claims to that accolade.
Quantity doesn't equal quality or exposure mate. Just out of interest how many Japanese fights have you seen compared to US fights?
Good point, but I've been to both countries and Japanese boxing is HUGE; much bigger than in America.

The only reason we in the west don't see many Asian fights is almost certainly because the general audience wouldn't be interested in "the other", NOT because of a lack of quality.

In Japan, everybody and their mothers know the world champions, who fight for WBC and WBA belts only, and on terrestrial TV. The reason Japanese or German boxers don't travel much is because they don't need to. They can make their millions at home, in front of capacity audiences, and are famous throughout their land.

And look at Ruslan Chagaev - ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND people watched his victory parade in Tashkent. OK, that's partly to do with him being the first Uzbeki world champ, but when you get those sort of numbers giving you love, you wouldn't feel any great need to "break" America.

So in conclusion, yes, America is still CULTURALLY the epicentre of boxing, but not financially. People who say boxing is dying are only looking at it from an American perspective. It is THE biggest sport in Thailand, is flourishing in Japan and Germany, remains huge in Mexico, is growing rapidly in Russia and is even improving in Britain.

Damn, thats an impressive arguement mate

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 17 May 2007, 06:45

Why thank you :)

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » 17 May 2007, 07:07

verballistic wrote:
oliverfennell wrote:So in conclusion, yes, America is still CULTURALLY the epicentre of boxing, but not financially. People who say boxing is dying are only looking at it from an American perspective. It is THE biggest sport in Thailand, is flourishing in Japan and Germany, remains huge in Mexico, is growing rapidly in Russia and is even improving in Britain.
culturally but NOT financially?!? live gates of 40,000 by themselves does not make you a boxing powerhouse!! the 25-30 all-time REVENUE GENERATING FIGHTS have been in usa, including the one that just smashed all records with $120 million total revenue!!

no european or asian fight has EVER done over 500,000 PPV buys and it could be lower than that!! so to say boxing is dying in america is ludicrous---the number of live fight shows per year is as high in usa that it has been in 25 years and TODAY america has more fight cards PER CAPITA than either germany or japan!!

based on rapid decline in number of live shows per year, the 2 countries where boxing IS dying are italy and argentina!! and that is reflected in the fact that both countries used to have numerous WORLD CHAMPS and neither has a single world champ today---THAT's dying my friend!!

mexico has actually seen decline in live shows with most of top fighters now based in usa, but a lot of those fight are TELEVISED from america into mexico, so it is clearly NOT dying in mexico either!!

russia has been tapering off after a hot rise in late 1990s-early 2000s, as evidenced by several HW title matches were cancelled there and re-scheduled HERE!! (maskaev defense, briggs-ibragimov). number of live shows is down overall in russia too---could it have somethin to do with the media crackdown and power consolidation by putin recently?!? perhaps!! 2007 world amateur championships were recently stripped from russia and will be held in usa later this year, due to incompetent (or corrupt) administrative snafus!!

BTW, some of these stats are available right here at boxrec...if you have time to check it out, but i am process of compliling stats reflecting ALL of my previous contentions made in this thread and will sum those up here in near future!!

Touché

Well done mate

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 17 May 2007, 07:14

culturally but NOT financially?!? live gates of 40,000 by themselves does not make you a boxing powerhouse!! the 25-30 all-time REVENUE GENERATING FIGHTS have been in usa, including the one that just smashed all records with $120 million total revenue!!

With much of the gate revenue being from extremely wealthy people/companies who do not necessarily constitute as being genuine boxing fans

OK, perhaps "financially" wasn't the best word to use, at least in terms of bare numbers, but what I meant was the impact of the sport on the general population in terms of how many people are watching. If Thailand had the US' economy, I'm sure their boxing revenues would look very handsome indeed,

no european or asian fight has EVER done over 500,000 PPV buys and it could be lower than that!!

That's because most of the rest of the world doesn't have the same PPV culture as the US. A lot of the best fights are available on terrestrial channel or at least sports subscription channels (monthly fee rather than per event). ALL top class boxing is on terrestrial TV in Thailand and Japan. The viewing figures for a terrestrial TV fight absolutely eclipse anything PPV can do, and if I was a fighter, I know which platform I'd prefer to fight on.

so to say boxing is dying in america is ludicrous

I'm not saying that myself, just pointing out that others are saying it.

the number of live fight shows per year is as high in usa that it has been in 25 years and TODAY america has more fight cards PER CAPITA than either germany or japan!!

Which is only natural, considering the US has the third largest population of all countries.

based on rapid decline in number of live shows per year, the 2 countries where boxing IS dying are italy and argentina!! and that is reflected in the fact that both countries used to have numerous WORLD CHAMPS and neither has a single world champ today---THAT's dying my friend!!

Your point vis-a-vis my argument being...?

mexico has actually seen decline in live shows with most of top fighters now based in usa, but a lot of those fight are TELEVISED from america into mexico, so it is clearly NOT dying in mexico either!!

Didn't I say "remains huge in Mexico"?

BTW, some of these stats are available right here at boxrec...if you have time to check it out, but i am process of compliling stats reflecting ALL of my previous contentions made in this thread and will sum those up here in near future!!

I'll look forward to it. But I think stats are not necessarily the most accurate method. As I said, America's figures are bound to look better because of the size of its population and the strength of its economy. If we are assessing the health or otherwise of the sport in any country, there are many other factors to take into consideration.

Taki... · Post by **Taki...** » 17 May 2007, 07:15

The location of money in boxing depends on the division. The HW's for example is all about Germany atm. The money at supermiddle is all over the place. Certainly the US has never been the epicentre for the very smallest weight classes, but in recent times only 126 through 160 have been firmly US orientated.

dalek · Post by **dalek** » 17 May 2007, 07:26

holyfield and angott should not be on the list.there may be a few others as well.

The Durable Dane · Post by **The Durable Dane** » 17 May 2007, 07:28

In 1986 evander holyfield was fighting a guy named Mike Brothers in france and in 1987 Ossie Ocasio also in france.

scottmallon · Post by **scottmallon** » 17 May 2007, 08:38

verballistic wrote:
oliverfennell wrote:
america has long been the epicenter of world boxing!!"
Not any more!

Germany and Japan have legitimate claims to that accolade.
japan is in the midst of a great boxing boom---over 300 live fight cards in 2006 an alltime record number...but only quality is in lowest divisions---no balance!!

germany had over 100 live shows last year---the most in one year since 1950, but far from their record number---1920s-1950 they had WAY more live boxing than today!! the quality in germany is improving with 98% imported talent---all from eastern europe, turkey and ex-soviet, but they are still far from being the EPICENTER of boxing---maybe someday!!

i'm in the middle of gathering stats in that regard, showing which countries have most fight cards per year capita (population) and hope to have those in a thread soon!!

It's not just Japan - it's the Philippines, Indonesia and Thailand - all have experience a boom recently. Some people say boxing is dying but it's not from where I'm sitting.

Epicenter equating to what? Money? Quality of boxers? Number of shows?

It's tough to determine the epicenter when there are different definitions of it. There are a couple of fights a week televised free in Thailand and other parts of Asia, including Japan and I dare say that while most Americans don't get to see these fights there are a large number of extremely capable fighters in the region that most fans don't have a clue about.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 17 May 2007, 08:41

verballistic wrote:john l sullivan 38

John L fought one of the most famous fights of the late 19th century against Charley Mitchell in France. He also fought a lot more than 38 times.

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 17 May 2007, 08:47

scottmallon wrote:
verballistic wrote:
oliverfennell wrote: Not any more!

Germany and Japan have legitimate claims to that accolade.
japan is in the midst of a great boxing boom---over 300 live fight cards in 2006 an alltime record number...but only quality is in lowest divisions---no balance!!

germany had over 100 live shows last year---the most in one year since 1950, but far from their record number---1920s-1950 they had WAY more live boxing than today!! the quality in germany is improving with 98% imported talent---all from eastern europe, turkey and ex-soviet, but they are still far from being the EPICENTER of boxing---maybe someday!!

i'm in the middle of gathering stats in that regard, showing which countries have most fight cards per year capita (population) and hope to have those in a thread soon!!
It's not just Japan - it's the Philippines, Indonesia and Thailand - all have experience a boom recently. Some people say boxing is dying but it's not from where I'm sitting.

Epicenter equating to what? Money? Quality of boxers? Number of shows?

It's tough to determine the epicenter when there are different definitions of it. There are a couple of fights a week televised free in Thailand and other parts of Asia, including Japan and I dare say that while most Americans don't get to see these fights there are a large number of extremely capable fighters in the region that most fans don't have a clue about.

I knew you'd back me on this, Scott ;)

See, you need to view this topic from different perspectives, not just as an American inside America.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 17 May 2007, 08:53

oliverfennell wrote:
In Japan, everybody and their mothers know the world champions, who fight for WBC and WBA belts only, and on terrestrial TV. The reason Japanese or German boxers don't travel much is because they don't need to. They can make their millions at home, in front of capacity audiences, and are famous throughout their land.

That makes me feel good about the sport's future. It also makes me wish that the UK promoters had followed a similar policy of just sticking top these 2 bodies.

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 17 May 2007, 08:56

Ezzard wrote:
oliverfennell wrote:
In Japan, everybody and their mothers know the world champions, who fight for WBC and WBA belts only, and on terrestrial TV. The reason Japanese or German boxers don't travel much is because they don't need to. They can make their millions at home, in front of capacity audiences, and are famous throughout their land.

That makes me feel good about the sport's future. It also makes me wish that the UK promoters had followed a similar policy of just sticking top these 2 bodies.

Would have been interesting, wouldn't it. Without the WBO, what would Eubank, Benn, Robinson, Calzaghe, S Harrison, Nelson etc have achieved? More, or less?

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 18 May 2007, 01:43

...a very interesting list

i read a couple of responses and then skipped the rest ....just a bunch of blather.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 18 May 2007, 03:48

verballistic wrote:russia has been tapering off after a hot rise in late 1990s-early 2000s, as evidenced by several HW title matches were cancelled there and re-scheduled HERE!! (maskaev defense, briggs-ibragimov). number of live shows is down overall in russia too---could it have somethin to do with the media crackdown and power consolidation by putin recently?!? perhaps!! 2007 world amateur championships were recently stripped from russia and will be held in usa later this year, due to incompetent (or corrupt) administrative snafus!!

There was adopted a law which banned several companies producing mostly alcohol drinks (Nemiroff, Parliament) from advertising on TV, and they were sponsoring boxing broadcasted for free on major channels here. That's the reason why it's declining here (not all are able to pay for subscription sports channels). Plus there are no big promoters here (there are a couple of mediocre ones, who don't know very well how to make a show out of it, and earn big money on it). Any talk of Putin being involved in this is outright silly. We don't have judo suddenly becoming popular here instead of boxing, you know ;) As for ama championship, it is indeed because of corruption... of newly elected Korean president of AIBA Ching-Kuo Wu, who is at daggers drawn with the president of European and Russian Boxing Association Eduard Husainov.

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 18 May 2007, 04:35

i guess i'm not getting thru in terms of what "PER CAPITA" means!! PER CAPITA, means "with the population difference factored in"!! for example (and i dont have the actual stats handy, but will dig them up later) in 2006 the USA had about 2.6 live fight shows PER MILLION PEOPLE (about 800 shows yearly in a population of 300 million), while japan had something like 2.4 live shows per million people and germany had something like 2.2 shows per million people...will get the exact numbers when i get a chance, but hope you get the idea of PER CAPITA meaning MORE FIGHTS HERE WITH THE POPULATION ALREADY FACTORED IN!!

surely, it's not an end-all, be-all kind of statistic, but an accurate picture of the general health of the sport in a particular country---ESPECIALLY WHEN COMPARED WITH WHAT THE STATS WERE FOR 20...40...60 YEARS AGO IN THAT SAME COUNTRY to show whether the sport is on the UPSWING, DOWNTURN OR JUST HOLDING GROUND!!

OK, OK, but still, I'm NOT saying boxing is dying in America. Haven't we established that yet? It's just that others are saying it, and it's a fairly common theme.

What I am contending is that it's much stronger in other countries. The total may be .2 or .4 million more compared to Japan and Germany, but I insist the impact of the shows on the general public in Germany and Japan is greater than in America. Obviously there's no way to quantify this, but let's say Japan has seven shows on terrestrial television and America has 10 on PPV, which of those figures is a better indicator of the health of the sport and its penetration into the mainstream consciousness?

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 21 May 2007, 09:37

I think the sport of boxing is dying here in America. The interest is slowing doww. Heck, 9 out of 10 people in the USA, RIGHT NOW, do not know who is the heavyweight champion of the world is.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 21 May 2007, 09:48

verballistic wrote:…in 2006 the USA had about 2.6 live fight shows PER MILLION PEOPLE (about 800 shows yearly in a population of 300 million)…

Geez is that depressing. Only 800 fight cards in 2006. Is that number correct? There were probably close to 800/year just in the greater New York area back in the 40’s & 50’s.

Cap · Post by **Cap** » 25 May 2007, 21:18

What I got from the original statement was that few American holders of the title fought outside their home country. It's funny how so many US media types complain about foreign fighters who don't leave their own country to fight in the States. Seems to me whats sauce for the goose....

Anyway, with modern communication, there is no need for someone to leave his home country if he draws a decent crowd. There's no reason any more to go to Las Vegas or New York. Boxing is truly global now, and a fight in Thailand can be broadcast into every home in middle America if the price is right. What difference is it to the Schmoe sitting in his skivvies in front of his TV with a cold brewskie in his mitt where the fight is actually being held?

Cap

MEISINGER · Post by **MEISINGER** » 25 May 2007, 21:52

elmersalsa wrote:I think the sport of boxing is dying here in America. The interest is slowing doww. Heck, 9 out of 10 people in the USA, RIGHT NOW, do not know who is the heavyweight champion of the world is.

hell i am a huge boxing fan and i don't know who the real world champion is

they are all beltholders and not champions

tagjohnson · Post by **tagjohnson** » 31 May 2007, 11:28

I'm not sure but I don't think Jake Lamotta ever fought outside the US

ALLTIME AMERICAN GREATS WHO NEVER FOUGHT OUTSIDE USA!!

Re: ALLTIME AMERICAN GREATS WHO NEVER FOUGHT OUTSIDE USA!!

Jake Lamotta