Santos Laciar

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 14 May 2007, 09:52

I was looking through some of Charlie Magri's old opponents recently, and looked at the record of one of his victims, Santos Laciar.

Now I didn't really remember this guy at all, and had I not been researching would probably never have noticed him, but my god what a record this guy had.

He seems to have been a totally unknown quanity when he fought Magri, and he was meant to be a tune up whilst Magri waited for his title shot. In fact, Laciar had been fighting for 5 years since the age of 17 before he fought Magri, and had over 30 fights, which I suspect before the days of boxrec, wasn't known at the time! This was supposed to be a green inexperienced kid brought over for an easy night's work. In the event he nearly stopped Magri in the first round of the fight.

The very next fight Laciar went over to South Africa and bashed up Peter Mathebula, the WBA champ in his back yard, lost the title two fights later, but regained it, and defended the featherweight title 10 times, before moving up and winning a title at super featherweight. The guy retired in 1990 with 101 fights, and was never stopped in a 14 career, despite fighting at such a high level.

Now I don't recall this guy ever being talked about much as a good featherweight champion, but judging by his record he was a pretty exceptional fighter who came up in the rough and tumble world of argentinean boxing to become what looks to me like a pretty exceptional fighter. He went 1-1-1 with Gilberto Roman, who I remember being pretty highly regarded during that era.

Can anyone remember this guy getting talked about much?

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 14 May 2007, 10:39

Yes he was a very well regarded fighter in the 80's, but only after the Magri fight really ( outside of Argentina anyway ) but he was eventualy seen as the main man at flyweight.

He was often spoken of as being by far the best fighter Charlie ever beat.
In fact, during the hard years of Magri's career, when he was getting knocked over and stopped, most people looked back at the Laciar result and were amazed that Magri ever managed to beat him.

You'd think, well if he could beat Laciar, he MUST be world class...and eventualy Charlie came good and won a world title.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 14 May 2007, 11:09

Having talked with Charlie myself, I think with hindsight that he would have probably have been better at Bantamweight. There was talk of a move up to fight a well known British fighter at one point

He often faded later on in fights because of the battles with the scales he had and overtraining all the time.

Laciar was an absolute monster, I watched his fight with Magri the other day, and he was like a little bull in there.

With hindsight that result against Laciar probably was the best win of his career, he dominated Laciar after the first round, though Laciar did have a big rally in the 9th round and was always in the fight.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 15 May 2007, 04:59

I think alot of south american and far east boxers are underrated.
there have been many champions from these areas , that have never got the recongition they deserve.

And Lacier certainly falls into that category, looks a good win for Magri in hindsight.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 15 May 2007, 06:24

I think part of the reason for this is that their early records are so hard to validate, or certainly were back in the days before the likes of boxrec. Sadly also, they don't get televised often enough, because they don't have a following in the states or Europe.

Look at In-Jin Chi, what a cracking fighter he was to watch, but his early career was very much an unknown quantity.

I know that Laciar wasn't rated at all before he fought Magri, they thought he was a young kid who'd only had a few fights and who couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag.....the guy had already had something like 38 bouts I think by the time he fought Charlie!

Ian, you aren't the person who used to run the boxing-central website? Wasn't that person called 'bones?'

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 15 May 2007, 06:39

jamesmcdonnell wrote: Ian, you aren't the person who used to run the boxing-central website? Wasn't that person called 'bones?'

No thats not me.

I was just looking at some of the boxers Laciar defeated , and got looking into Hilario Zapata record. He's another one of those boxers who's been forgotton, Zapata was a 2 weight champion. He took part in 25 world title fights, winning 19 of those, and during his career he fought 15 other world champions.

He defended his titles in many challengers backyards, and he wasn't a puncher, so that made winning doubly hard.

How arn't these guy in the BHOF?

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=30654

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 15 May 2007, 06:55

I'm surprised Zapata isn't in the IBHOF, he was a pretty big name in his time.

When you consider that Barry McGuigan was inducted, it seems ridiculous that someone like Zapata isn't.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 15 May 2007, 08:00

I'm amazed Zapata isn't in the HOF?? He dominated the flyweights for years...

Mickey Duff used to sit by his fax machine in his Wardour street offices, waiting for the records of prospective opponents to be sent through, and they were sometimes near impossible to verify.
I think Johnny Bos was his scout.

There was fightfax I think it was, which was about as up to date as things were back before the net, then there was the Ring record book and also an Italian book, that came out every year, but were always hopelessly out of date.

Boxrec is a God send to managers checking out records, no doubt about that.

Duff must have been fuming when he realised how good Laciar was, considering how careful he and Lawless were over selecting opponents.
Obviously it turned out great, but was a bit of a near miss.

Then along came an unknown Mexican called Juan Diaz......

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 15 May 2007, 08:32

The thing is though, there is nothing in Diaz' record to suggest he was any threat whatsoever and he didn't go on to achieve anything afterward. However, there are other reasons for that freak result as well which I won't go into now.

This is the thing, the losses on Magri's records are to fighters far inferior to the likes of Laciar and Mercedes. Cedeno, Torres, Diaz, none of these guys were particularly special at all.

I'm not saying Magri had an unbeatable style, but the fact that he boxed Laciar to a standstill, and beat a still dangerous Mercedes indicates that on paper at least, he shouldn't have lost to these guys.

It must have been such a dangerous business matchmaking prior to boxrec, no wonder so many managers were ultra cautious about choice of opponents.

SticknMove · Post by **SticknMove** » 15 May 2007, 09:22

Magri was my favourite British fighter at that time. His style was never going be given over to longevity, unfortunately. His all out agression and throwing everything at his opponents from the first bell lacked defensive qualities. He had what my old trainer called a ‘sit on his opponent’ style meaning he would stay right on his opponent the whole fight delivering his full repertoir of punches. And he was formidable at doing that very thing.

However, over his career his punch resistance seemed to abandon him a bit. If his opponent stuck around Magri could certainly show signs of vulnerability. I seemed to remember a few sticky moments during the Mercedes fight too until the fight was stopped on cuts. I think there was an element of inevitable burn out in Magri’s career.

Magri was a terrific little fighter though and a real gent outside the ring.

There appeared to me that there was an ethos in the Lawless camp to carefully nurture fighters through British, Commonwealth and European titles to world title level, become champion, defend it a few times and get out having reached the pinacle of the sport, with a bit of money and the fighters marbles in tact.

BTW excellent find on Magri’s win over Laciar. I remember Laciar was very highly rated in the boxing magazines I bought as a kid, but that was most definitely after Magri fought him.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 15 May 2007, 09:43

There's some interesting background information relating to some of what you say there which will become evident in due course.

If you watch the Laciar fight. and Magri's early career as an amateur, you can see that he was actually a pretty cute boxer. His fight with Laciar was a bit like Hatton with Tackie, with the brawler turning boxer to nullify his opponents advantages in strength.

Magri was actually #2 contender for the WBC title when he beat Laciar, and in fact should have been fighting the #1 contender, who pulled out through injury. Magri was kept waiting around for ages for his title shot, partly I think because his promoters were making a packet from his european title defences, and partly because of some untimely losses which harmed his ranking.

It's hard to imagine now, but the fighters in Magri's era, Magri, minter, sibson, et al. They were selling out venues like the Albert Hall and Wembley Arena every couple of months. There was a lot of money being made there.

Magri's style, like Hatton's was a high octane one, and by it's nature short lived, but havintg spoken to him, there's definetly a few things which went against him, not least of which was really killing himself to make weight throughout his career. Charlie said that he would always feel weak in the second half of the fight because often he was losing as much as six pounds in weight to make weight. He used to put loads of weight on overnight and was always in a sweatsuit when he trained to get himself down to the flyweight limit, sometimes coming in under the limit. That can't be good for you when you're such a little bloke.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 15 May 2007, 09:56

How come Charlie didn't move up in weight? was it pressure of his managment?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 15 May 2007, 10:03

He wanted to, but I don't think his management were interested. Plus of course he was highly ranked at Featherweight. There was a fight that almost got made which would have been intriguing. He agreed to fight Johnny Owen, but then Johnny got the shot at Pintor next....

SticknMove · Post by **SticknMove** » 15 May 2007, 10:43

I seem to recall that Magri had problems with making weight. Didn’t realise it was as bad as that. For a guy that relies on sitting on his opponent throwing relentless clinical combinations all night you can see why that will eventually catch up with him. I seem to recall also that his camp wanted him to retire (after which fight I can not remember).

I wonder if his management’s reluctance for him to move up to Bantam had anything to do with his size?

Since you have been delving into his amateur background James, I bet he has some great words to say about his old trainer at the Arbour Youth, who was also called Billy Graham (I seem to remember). From what I heard about him he was an excellent wise trainer and a lovely guy to boot.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 15 May 2007, 10:56

Jimmy Graham, not Billy, but close.

Yes, Charlie was very close to Jimmy, spent a lot of time with him as a young lad, and Jimmy took him under his wing early on.

Charlie's first trainer was actually a guy called Tommy Adams though, who looked after the juniors at the Arbour Youth, it was Tommy who took him through his initial couple of years of training.

In terms of size, Laciar was shorter than Magri, but he moved up to Super Featherweight and won a title.

I do wonder if Charlie might not have been better at a higher weight. He wasn't doing the weight right, and was having to sometimes lose weight twice in two days to get in under the weight. On one occasion, he had to lose 6 lbs to make weight the day before the fight, and then put on 8 lbs in weight overnight, and had to lose it again the day after. Now that is a terrible process to put your body through if you're fighting at flyweight.

Of course, fighters always have excuses about why they perform badly or don't win, but in this case I think there is at least some credence to what he says, given his late fading in fights, and the fact that despite training like an absolute demon every single day barring injury, he still had to cut loads of water to make weight.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 15 May 2007, 11:05

Maybe be an idea to do a boxrec meet at charlies pub somewhen in the summer.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 15 May 2007, 11:11

I did mention it to him previously when I spoke to him. He's a nice geezer charlie, and very funny as well. Maybe we could hook up when there's one of the event evenings or something, could be a laugh.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 15 May 2007, 11:12

I did mention it to him previously when I spoke to him. He's a nice geezer charlie, and very funny as well. Maybe we could hook up when there's one of the event evenings or something, could be a laugh.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 15 May 2007, 11:13

I did mention it to him previously when I spoke to him. He's a nice geezer charlie, and very funny as well. Maybe we could hook up when there's one of the event evenings or something, could be a laugh.

SticknMove · Post by **SticknMove** » 15 May 2007, 11:22

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Jimmy Graham, not Billy, but close.

Of course, it was Jimmy not Billy.

It seems that Charlie should have been fighting at Bantam rather than Flyweight if he was putting himself through that process. Great to see him get a mention on these boards, terrific fighter and a very nice guy.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 17 May 2007, 04:10

Laciar was one of the best fighters of the 80's. The quality of his challengers is frightening.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 May 2007, 04:23

It's quite amazing how many good fighters Argentina has produced, and continues to produce. Their boxing scene seems reminiscent of mexico's, with young guys from 15-17 thrown into the deep end and having loads of fights before they even mature. They then fight in a small pool of fighters until they get a title shot and then surprise everyone by either coming close to winning, or winning.

I've yet to see an argentinean challenger to a world title who didn't acquit himself well. In recent times we've had Jorge Barrios, another wild toughnut who burst onto the world scene when he almost flattened Freitas, and then went on to win a title in his own right, and ran Guzman very close too.

Anyone know much about Argentine boxing?

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 17 May 2007, 11:10

Argentine boxers do seem to be rough and tough. Baldomir, Barrios, Castro and of course Monzon, they all fought a bit dirty as well, maybe thats par for the course when learning boxing there.

Also it seems there is a kindred spirit with Italy , as alot of Argentinian boxers have fought there. Juan Martin Coggi was one winning his title there (from an Italian), and then defending it in Italy a number of times.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 May 2007, 11:21

Wasn't there some link between Italy and Argentina during the war?