The Legend Returns

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 22 May 2007, 12:44

This one went under the radar. He's fighting on the "Fight Night At The Tank" show so I don't think it will be televised, atleast not live.

http://www.Fightnightatthetank.com

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 22 May 2007, 19:04

Batchelder has no business fighting at heavy: the kid is a fat super middle, whereas James....oh, wait hang on a minute, I can see why they made this match now

Toney will twist him inside out like a pretzel - in seasoning terms former Tyson cronie Batchelder is a rank novice compared to that gruff ol' ba stard Toney.

I will still wanna see the fight though

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 24 May 2007, 17:29

Well Toney must've been spending less time at Burger King because he weighed in at 229, lowest since the Booker fight.

Podmore_Birmingham · Post by **Podmore_Birmingham** » 25 May 2007, 04:21

.... Returned with a split decision.

I've loved watching Toney box over the years but it must be time for him to hang up the gloves. Toney wouldn't have struggled with a fighter of Batchelder's quality even two years ago.

Best to get out before he starts becoming a name for up-and-coming fighters.

Tom Podmore.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 25 May 2007, 04:30

Toney won a split decision, and the report doesn't sound to good.

Toney wins Split decision over Batchelder

24.05.07 - By Richard Rodriguez at ringside: James Toney (70-6-3, 43 KO's) W 70 (43 ko's) struggled tonight to win a 10-round split decision victory over journeyman fighter Danny Batchelder (25-5-1, 12 KO's) at the HP pavillion in San Jose, California. The scores were 98-92, 97-93 for Toney and 96-94 for Batchelder. The San Jose crowd, usually more accustomed hard working fighters, were none too impressed with Toney's economical, energy preserving counter punching style and let him know about it with a shower of boos for much of the bout.

Toney, 38, was far from impressive, and appeared to treat the fight as a sparring session rather than a bout to impress fans. On the other hand, Batchelder worked hard throughout, landing cleanly despite Toney's defensive work at moving his upper body to avoid punches. As was the case in his last two bouts against Samuel Peter, Toney plodded around the ring and showed zero footwork. If this bout was meant to impress, it failed to win any fans in San Jose, and me included.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 25 May 2007, 06:31

Sounds bad, Toney seems to be taking a lot of shots in fights now, something he wasn't doing a couple of years ago. Whilst he was competitive with Peter, he allowed a crude brawler to consistently tag him, which at his advanced age is definetly a bad thing.

I can't see where James' career is going now. He hasn't got the beating of any of the current champions I don't think, and what point is there otherwise of continuing. He could get another title shot, but it's just going to be more punishment. Maybe he could squeak by briggs, if he's still champion, but I think Ibragimov is likely to emerge from that with the belt.

Shame to see Toney struggling with guys like this, or at least, looking bad, as the fight wasn't really that close on two of the cards.

How he's slipped since that still impressive holyfield win.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 25 May 2007, 06:48

I think there is certainly an element of that for big-time boxers. They are not used to having their egos squashed or being dictated to, after years of calling the shots, hiring and firing attorneys, managers etc.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 25 May 2007, 08:02

It could be regression on his skills, but also Toney has a habit of being lazy in some fights.
He's still marketable, so will get an eliminator soon. Wouldn't mind him over here fighting Skelton, Williams or Sprott

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 25 May 2007, 08:17

I don't think Toney's a legend. He did some very good things, enough to be outstanding AT TIMES, i.e. a busy 91-93, then a brilliant 2003 but ultimately he set himself high standards and fell pitifully short. His discipline and conditioning has been atrocious at times. Much is made that he was weight drained when he fought the great McCallum. Yet McCallum was 36 - possibly somewhere between 3-5 years older (why won't he show anyone his birth certificate) - and the Body Snatcher was struggling with the weight himself and many feel he was slighted in AT LEAST one of their 2 fights.

Brilliant stylist, poor dedication = uneven career. I don't think a legend would be winning contentious decisions over the Batchelders and McGrooms of the world.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 27 May 2007, 11:57

Toney reminds me a bit of Hector Comatcho in that he could have done so much more with his talent and has pissed at least 50% of his career away... but the fact is that he's shot now, he still has some moves and could probably carry on fighting at around his present level into his 40s but I dread to think what his speech will be like if he carries on for much longer... the truth is that he;s showing all the evidence now of the wear and tear of his career, which has probably been exacerbated by his constant weight struggles, and every fight he has now is a fight too many...

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » 28 May 2007, 09:45

Terry, it's time to give up the ghost old son.....

A split decision against a man beaten by Oscar Bravo

ouch........

Next he'll be up agaionst Juliet Tango

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 28 May 2007, 13:26

Autobarn wrote:I don't think Toney's a legend. He did some very good things, enough to be outstanding AT TIMES, i.e. a busy 91-93, then a brilliant 2003 but ultimately he set himself high standards and fell pitifully short. His discipline and conditioning has been atrocious at times. Much is made that he was weight drained when he fought the great McCallum. Yet McCallum was 36 - possibly somewhere between 3-5 years older (why won't he show anyone his birth certificate) - and the Body Snatcher was struggling with the weight himself and many feel he was slighted in AT LEAST one of their 2 fights.

Brilliant stylist, poor dedication = uneven career. I don't think a legend would be winning contentious decisions over the Batchelders and McGrooms of the world.

Definately a legend, how many can claim to be better from his era? Not too many, look at the comp over his 80 fights:

Nunn
Reggie Johnson
Barkley
Mike McCallum 3 times
Jirov
Griffin
RJJ
Ruiz
Holyfield
Guinn
Rahman
Peter

Way better than Bernard Hopkins, Trinidad, Barrera and Morales. So if you don't consider them legends fair enough

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 28 May 2007, 22:34

If Toney struggled with this guy, I can only come to the conclusion either the two Peter fights really took it out of James or that he's pretty much done with as a HW, if not a fighter. But then again, when I saw the Booker fight on tv few years back, it was clear to me that Toney could have knocked the man out at any time he wanted to, but had to have decided not to (he claimed he hurt his shoulder).

Toney prolly will fight a few more grade C guys before making the jump back against a worth while opponent---if not, he might just keep fighting bums until he gets another shot at a title eliminator or a genuine title. But if he failed with this guy...I can only think that Peter jumbled Toney's brains.

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » 29 May 2007, 03:59

No way is Toney's legacy better than that of Barrera and Morales....

You included Jirov and bloody Guinn in that list!! and a tired old McCallum...

Carbo · Post by **Carbo** » 29 May 2007, 04:36

Captain Hook wrote:No way is Toney's legacy better than that of Barrera and Morales....

You included Jirov and bloody Guinn in that list!! and a tired old McCallum...

Yup, Toney's legacy isn't better than Morales' or Barerra's. Jirov is a worthy name to include, though, because he was a truely dominant champion at the time and at a weight that was considered not to be Toney's best -- either because it was way above his natural weight, if you believe the experts, or because it was way below his natural weight, if you believe him.

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » 29 May 2007, 06:59

Barrera only has one or two Fana types in his list, Wenton, Lloyd etc...

Most of the others are real big names.....

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 29 May 2007, 07:18

Captain Hook wrote: and a tired old McCallum...

The Body Snatcher didnt look too tired and old in their excellent first encounter!

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » 29 May 2007, 07:41

He wasn't the same force though, he was about 35 for the first fight wasn't he?

Maybe James made him look better than he was, the fat oaf.. any thoughts TD?

I loved McCallum, great fighter..

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 29 May 2007, 08:04

Captain Hook wrote:He wasn't the same force though, he was about 35 for the first fight wasn't he?

Maybe James made him look better than he was, the fat oaf.. any thoughts TD?

I loved McCallum, great fighter..

McCallum matured like a fine wine, his age just reflected his vast experience. I would hold up his first fight with Toney as an example of boxing at its best - simply wonderful to watch.

Toney is a HofF'er, first ballot. Anyone who argues otherwise doent know what they are taking about IMO.

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » 29 May 2007, 10:33

Nobody argued that he's a great boxer and a possible HOF but he does not leave a legacy to match Barrera or Morales, no chance.

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 29 May 2007, 22:11

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Definately a legend, how many can claim to be better from his era? Not too many, look at the comp over his 80 fights:

Nunn
Reggie Johnson
Barkley
Mike McCallum 3 times
Jirov
Griffin
RJJ
Ruiz
Holyfield
Guinn
Rahman
Peter

Way better than Bernard Hopkins, Trinidad, Barrera and Morales. So if you don't consider them legends fair enough

You're forgetting to mention how he actually *did* against that competition - let's review them, in order:

Nunn - Toney way behind on the cards, impressive comeback KO though
Reggie Johnson - very close fight, Toney knocked down, note that Jones often gets ragged on for fighting "second rater" Johnson
Barkley - Nice win, but Barkley was notoriously inconsistent, Hearns was the *only* top guy he ever beat
Mike McCallum 3 times - most people think McCallum deserved the W in at *least* one of the first 2
RJJ - a completely lopsided, embarrassing bitchslapping
Griffin - Toney lost both, Griffin was a 14-fight novice in the first one (!)
Jirov - Impressive win, but let's face it: Jirov's style was tailor-made for Toney
Ruiz - That fight never happened, unless you put a giant DRUG CHEAT over Toney's "W"
Holyfield - Nice-looking win, until Holyfield showed just how far gone he was
Guinn - 0-2-1 in his last 4 fights coming in, only win in that span was vs the legendary Phil Jackson
Rahman - Toney looked like crap
Peter - Toney lost both, second lopsidedly (worst loss since the Jones debacle)

And you left out:

Dave Tiberi - victim of blatant robbery, and who was Tiberi to begin with?
Drake Thadzi - Drake who?
20 other no-hopers from 1995-2002 who Toney ofetn looked less than impressive against

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 13 Jun 2007, 04:31

Sad news. Looks like the only way Toney can hope to compete at his advanced age and with his relatively small frame is by getting on the gear.

By all accounts his performance was woeful; is it end of the line for ‘Lights out’?

I know he wasnt everyone's cup of tea but he has certainly been my favourite fighter of the last 20 years..

from fightnews:

Toney suspended for steroids!
By Karl Freitag
The California State Athletic Commission has levied one year suspensions on James "Lights Out" Toney and Danny Batchelder, who fought May 24 at the HP Pavilion in San Jose, California. Toney has been suspended for testing positive for Boldenone Metabolite and Stanozolol Metabolite. He has been fined $2,500 and the suspension period runs from the conclusion of the bout until the end of his licensing year which is May 22, 2008. Batchelder tested positive for Oxandrolone, Stanozolol Metabolite, and an elevated T/E Ratio and has also been fined $2,500 and suspended through the end of his licensing year which is May 22, 2008.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 13 Jun 2007, 05:08

Mike defiitely deserved one of those Toney fights. I prefer the 1st as a Mike win. Toney nailed him with stunning right hands. But many times Toney was fumbling on the end of Mike's jab, pulling faces in frustration. When Toney would land that cannonball right, it was usually after eating up 4 or 5 jabs (which he countered the right over). Also after rattling Mike's head, Toney would be tired, and Mike would jump on him with body shots. advantage McCallum.

The 2nd round knockdown that Toney did wasn't ruled a knockdown. As such there isn't a great case for him winning. If it was ruled a knockdown, I give him the draw!

It's very possible that Mike was up to 5 years older than on record. Offically he was what, 12 years older and Toney - who could do no wrong at the time - got a draw and an MD loss! Bob Arum and boxing in general wanted Toney to win. Toney had a nasty mouth which he maximised to try and fill in the post Tyson era some...Soon as Toney's 'aura' went he started losing the close decisions.

Also no doubt American boxing wanted an heir apparent to Hagler. After the disappointment that was Nunn. So hey, they try to tell themselves that Toney won, Toney won, he DID win, tell themselves enough times they believe it and encourage other people in it as well.

He did some good work at middle but his workrate was never good. Mike was a drained middle and his workrate was better.

I don't rate JT for any of the heavyweight stuff because he was a juicer.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 13 Jun 2007, 06:20

Terry D wrote:
Autobarn wrote:The 3rd doesn't count for shit as Body Snatcher was well past it. It's very possible that Mike was up to 5 years older than on record. Offically he was what, 12 years older and Toney - who could do no wrong at the time - got a draw and an MD loss!
Are you saying Toney could do no wrong by fight III? He was coming off a loss and went straight into one. He beat Mike clearly in fight three and closely in fight one.

Mike was old in fight one but his style did not rely on Jones-like dancing. They matched skill for skill and Toney had him hurt in the final round.

Nah, I'm putting in temporal elipses, in the style of experimental writing. The fight 3 bit was a slight leap forward

Toney could be terrific, but I feel there was doubt about him. Nearly all those middleweight fights were uncomfortably close, hence why there are arguments either way. I think Toney is suited to higher weights, where his toughness counts at a bit slower pace, with bigger openings to exploit.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 13 Jun 2007, 06:39

Autobarn wrote: I don't rate JT for any of the heavyweight stuff because he was a juicer.

That may or maynot be true. Even if it is true - so is Wlad, Vitali, Peter, Rahman, Briggs, Holyfield etc etc.