Is There a Secret To a Strong Chin?

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 26 May 2007, 23:56

I been wondering this alot lately. Ali seemed to be caught flush a few times in his earlier career and was dropped, but after fighting Frazier the first time he rarely hit the canvas or was on 'queer street' ever again.

George Chuvalo once said that the way he was able to take a punch so good was that he 'visualized' the punch coming to him, and by that way he could take it better than he could if he didn't.

Do you have to really learn how to take a punch? Or is some people just more naturally tougher than others? Randall Tex Cobb could take punches non-stop and never get knocked off his feet, yet Patterson who was a 2x HW champion got knocked down quite alot in his career [after he was champion he improved and rarely met the canvas].

Jake LaMotta was rarely ever stopped or dropped in his career as well. There's some men who make you do think that they just could take it better, but in some instances it just makes you believe that they just had to learn to take the punishment.

Thoughts?

Diamond WEAPON · Post by **Diamond WEAPON** » 27 May 2007, 03:15

I think to a certain extent one can get used to hard punches and develop a stronger chin (it makes sense considering adapting in evolution), but a lot of it also has to do with natural ability to take punches. Also there are some people who can avoid punches partally to take the sting off of them (Malignaggi, Mayweather, Toney) which helps a lot too. But I'd say for a lot of fighters it just comes naturally, how else could you explain guys like McCall, Andrade, and Baldomir who don't even flinch when they get hit with the most powerful shots of their opponents.

mitchell · Post by **mitchell** » 27 May 2007, 05:41

Is There a Secret To a Strong Chin?

Not getting hit helps. Actually conditioning and strength helps. Defence helps believe it or not, everybody gets hit(in this game) but often that one punch is the one we should have blocked or slipped. Look at Roger Mayweather, not known for his strong chin, still made his career sucessful, sure he still got hit, but he focused on defence and the chin appeared better. Noticed how he did in the second Chavez fight compaired to the first, or how he did against Tszyu. He still got hit plenty in thosr contests.

vagabundo55 · Post by **vagabundo55** » 27 May 2007, 18:03

HomicideHenry wrote:I been wondering this alot lately. Ali seemed to be caught flush a few times in his earlier career and was dropped, but after fighting Frazier the first time he rarely hit the canvas or was on 'queer street' ever again.

George Chuvalo once said that the way he was able to take a punch so good was that he 'visualized' the punch coming to him, and by that way he could take it better than he could if he didn't.

Do you have to really learn how to take a punch? Or is some people just more naturally tougher than others? Randall Tex Cobb could take punches non-stop and never get knocked off his feet, yet Patterson who was a 2x HW champion got knocked down quite alot in his career [after he was champion he improved and rarely met the canvas].

Jake LaMotta was rarely ever stopped or dropped in his career as well. There's some men who make you do think that they just could take it better, but in some instances it just makes you believe that they just had to learn to take the punishment.

Thoughts?

From my experience I would totally agree with that part about "visualizing" the punch. It does help. As you get hit more often, if you manage to see it coming and you'll begin learning to roll with the punches. It does take steam off of punches a bit. It's the unexpected punches that daze you. I don't know why exactly that is, but basically if you go in there knowing you'll get hit, then you sorta brace yourself for impact. Fighters like Duran, Sanchez, LaMotta, Hagler, even Ali.. basically 99.9% of great fighters (everyone except Jones Jr.

jk) learned to roll with punches. If you watch closely, when a great fighter is hit, he'll usually move his head as the punch is making contact in the opposite direction of the punch coming. Toney does it flawlessly, this is why I believe as a fighter ages, he's more prone to being stopped because reflexes diminish with age. When you stop seeing frequent headmovement, that's when you really know a fighter is past his prime. Most people don't even notice those movements, sometimes they just involve moving an inch, if you watch closely though you'll begin to see it as it happens. Decagon has it right, flailing away with your chin exposed is just like asking for a knockout. One thing trainers quickly teach you is to tuck in your chin. There are a few weak spots that daze most fighters, sometimes I wonder if some great fighters are immune to those weak points. One is your chin, the other is on your ear, and then the side of your head. Many trainers teach fighters to aim for the chest because the first thing the average fighter does when he sees a punch coming is tuck in their chin. But before you learn to roll with punches, it is key that you learn balance, because punches often can knock you off balance. This is why in my opinion some fighters are dropped early on in their career. Trinidad and De La hoya come to mind. I suppose some people are naturally better at taking punches. I hope this helps answer your questions a bit.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 27 May 2007, 18:12

Yeah, rolling with punches is a big thing. In some of Duran's fights it looks like he's getting nailed one perfect punch after another, but he's rolling with a lot of it and that helps him take the punch.

Being able to see punches coming is a big thing. If you get hit by a very hard shot and see it coming you might be able to take it... if you get hit by a shot that isn't quite as hard but that you don't see coming, you can get KO'd.

And that said, some guys are just tough. Some guys can take shot after shot without rolling with the punches, not being able to see the punches coming, and still be able to take the shots. Maybe its just in the genes?

Also, there are fighters who do get put on queet street but who are able to survive on instinct, it seems. There were a few times where Ali was probably out on his feet but he wouldn't go down, and he was tough enough and smart enough to stand up and to survive. Foreman I think has said that there were times where Ali was out in their fight but he would just basically wake himself up and continue on fighting? Who knows.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 27 May 2007, 18:17

Your blessed with it or your not.
Its a wonderful gift really.
Some guys you can tell lookin at em.
Thick neck , square jaw.
Guys with the long skinny neck and the thin face ..get the salts.
Or teach em how to fall cuz they are gonna do alot of it, and when they do, ya want em to fall with class.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 27 May 2007, 22:23

4 physical aspects to a great chin and some examples IMHO

1. not having a neck (David Tua)
2. maintaining hyper relaxed musculature around whatever neck you do have. (Ali)
3. learning or intuiting how to roll with the punches (James Toney)

MOST IMPORTANT

4. great eyesight to avoid incoming punches to begin with. (Floyd Mayweather, Sugar Ray Leonard, and Ali)

barry · Post by **barry** » 27 May 2007, 22:24

Jack Dempsey strengthened his jaw by consistently chewing on pine gum straight from the tree, which this no doubt made stronger his jaw muscles, but whether, or not it made his chin any better I don’t know, but Dempsey did have a great chin and he could take a lot of punishment!

Strong neck muscles can help one better take a shot also, but whether a powerful neck makes a chin better, again I do not know, but a powerful neck can help to reduce the snap caused by a strong hook to the chin.

A person certainly can take a much harder shot if he anticipates, or clearly sees the punch coming. Ricardo Mayorga demonstrated this in his bout with Felix Trinidad when he stuck his chin out like an idiot and welcomed Trinidad to give his best shot and Trinidad landed a couple of his biggest left hooks of which Mayorga had no ill effects from either of the bombs and it was the punches that he was not looking for that really hurt him!!

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 28 May 2007, 01:00

....lots of excellent information here.
a few added points: lamotta was floored just once.....right near the end of his career....by hard hittinglight heavy danny nardico. when he tanked his fight against billy fox, his pride, though it didn't keep him from faking his loss...wouldn't allow him to hit the canvas, so he just sat on the center rope and let fox keep hitting him until the ref stopped it.

re: weak points: a trainer told me bob satterfield's weakness was to blows to the side of his head.

coley wallace....a hyped heavy had a lot going for him but had what they called a "swan's neck"....too long, not enough muscle.

ray robinson had a long neck, but exercised the muscles from his neck to his shoulder with extreme dedication and built them up. he was great at rolling with punches but he could take a hell of a punch too.

sandy saddler is one for boxbuzz to comment on....long skinny body...long skinny neck but had a great chin...kayoed only once in is long career..and that in his second fight when he was overmatched.

rocky marciano...was like the dinosaurs...his brain was too small to feel punches so he didn't know when he was hit hard.

bollox · Post by **bollox** » 28 May 2007, 05:17

Jaclem wrote:....lots of excellent information here.
a few added points: lamotta was floored just once.....right near the end of his career....by hard hittinglight heavy danny nardico. when he tanked his fight against billy fox, his pride, though it didn't keep him from faking his loss...wouldn't allow him to hit the canvas, so he just sat on the center rope and let fox keep hitting him until the ref stopped it.

re: weak points: a trainer told me bob satterfield's weakness was to blows to the side of his head.

coley wallace....a hyped heavy had a lot going for him but had what they called a "swan's neck"....too long, not enough muscle.

ray robinson had a long neck, but exercised the muscles from his neck to his shoulder with extreme dedication and built them up. he was great at rolling with punches but he could take a hell of a punch too.

sandy saddler is one for boxbuzz to comment on....long skinny body...long skinny neck but had a great chin...kayoed only once in is long career..and that in his second fight when he was overmatched.

rocky marciano...was like the dinosaurs...his brain was too small to feel punches so he didn't know when he was hit hard.

vostok · Post by **vostok** » 28 May 2007, 05:48

Expug wrote:Your blessed with it or your not.
Its a wonderful gift really.
Some guys you can tell lookin at em.
Thick neck , square jaw.Guys with the long skinny neck and the thin face ..get the salts.
Or teach em how to fall cuz they are gonna do alot of it, and when they do, ya want em to fall with class.

what about maskaev then,his jaw is the real deal about being square, yet no need to mention how chinny he is..
well, as mentioned above in several quotes,for me, the secret to a 'formidable chin' really lies in the neck muscles ,the trapezius muscles and also short(and thick) neck after all.all these four gives extra potential and capacity to absorb extra shock and direct it to the body.
Or maybe some boxers are anatomically(not in the meaning of mass but maybe the angles of the bones and muscles?) gifted in absorbing&directing the shock to the body,nothings to do with the mass..
well,it really is a secret maybe..

vagabundo55 · Post by **vagabundo55** » 29 May 2007, 04:35

I think we're all correct. But in the end, having a good chin might just be like having power.. it's just a gift, some people have it some don't. Some people are weaker in certain spots too as we've mentioned, then there's the freaks of nature like Oktay Urkal, I remember during the Cotto fight.. Cotto landed a hard uppercut that looked to nearly rip Urkals head off, Urkal just shrugged it off as if to say, "Is that the best you can do?" I'm pretty sure we all agree that Cotto is p4p one of the hardest hitters today.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 29 May 2007, 15:33

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 30 May 2007, 00:28

HomicideHenry wrote:I been wondering this alot lately. Ali seemed to be caught flush a few times in his earlier career and was dropped, but after fighting Frazier the first time he rarely hit the canvas or was on 'queer street' ever again.

In terms of this, I would attribute this just to Ali maturing, maybe even putting on weight. Fighters' chins seem to get better with age. Oscar was put down twice early in his career against under whelming fighters... he never showed a bad chin as he got older and moved up in weight.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 30 May 2007, 01:40

I don't mean older as in from 25-35, but from 18-25 I would think it gets better.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 30 May 2007, 02:07

As far as Marciano goes, I used to hear a rumor ages back that it was discovered in an autopsy that his skull was 2" thick, much thicker than that of a regular skull. I also heard this of Julio Cesar Chavez, that his skull was thicker than average.

vostok · Post by **vostok** » 30 May 2007, 02:39

HomicideHenry wrote:As far as Marciano goes, I used to hear a rumor ages back that it was discovered in an autopsy that his skull was 2" thick, much thicker than that of a regular skull. I also heard this of Julio Cesar Chavez, that his skull was thicker than average.

that makes sense :)

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 30 May 2007, 18:16

Jaclem wrote:....lots of excellent information here.
a few added points: lamotta was floored just once.....right near the end of his career....by hard hittinglight heavy danny nardico. when he tanked his fight against billy fox, his pride, though it didn't keep him from faking his loss...wouldn't allow him to hit the canvas, so he just sat on the center rope and let fox keep hitting him until the ref stopped it.

re: weak points: a trainer told me bob satterfield's weakness was to blows to the side of his head.

coley wallace....a hyped heavy had a lot going for him but had what they called a "swan's neck"....too long, not enough muscle.

ray robinson had a long neck, but exercised the muscles from his neck to his shoulder with extreme dedication and built them up. he was great at rolling with punches but he could take a hell of a punch too.

sandy saddler is one for boxbuzz to comment on....long skinny body...long skinny neck but had a great chin...kayoed only once in is long career..and that in his second fight when he was overmatched.

rocky marciano...was like the dinosaurs...his brain was too small to feel punches so he didn't know when he was hit hard.

Do I detect some bitterness there against Marciano, Jaclem?

A large head is characteristic of fighters with great chins.

Marciano's head was almost as large as the breadth of his shoulders.

LaMotta's head was HUGE. Look at the photo of LaMotta in the ring just after he won the title from Cerdan with Joe Louis standing next to him wearing a light colored suit.

LaMotta's head is noticeably larger than Louis', even though Louis was a head taller than Jake and weighed 40 pounds more than Jake for all his fights.

Henry Armstrong told how he really wanted to get even with Mexican Baby Arizmendi by knocking him out to avenge earlier losses to Arizmendi,

but that he couldn't knock Arizmendi out.

Armstrong commented on the huge size of Arizmendi's head, saying it was impossible to knock him out.

Tony Canzoneri had a great chin. His head and neck were large in proportion to the rest of him.

Another great chin was Jack Dillon, who was never knocked out in his entire career.

Max Baer had a great chin.

Joe Louis said hitting him was like "trying to knock a brick out of a wall."

Greb and Mickey Walker certainly had great chins.

Carnera had a great chin. And a lot of courage.

He was on his feet at the end of his losses to Baer and Louis.

Fullmer had an all time great chin, and his one punch KO loss to Robinson is unexplainable.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 30 May 2007, 23:00

..bitterness toward marciano? i'm shocked....shocked at such a statement!

graziano's nickname for his pal lamotta was "big head". which, as pointed out was very large indeed.

Diamond WEAPON · Post by **Diamond WEAPON** » 31 May 2007, 02:45

granberry wrote:
Jaclem wrote:....lots of excellent information here.
a few added points: lamotta was floored just once.....right near the end of his career....by hard hittinglight heavy danny nardico. when he tanked his fight against billy fox, his pride, though it didn't keep him from faking his loss...wouldn't allow him to hit the canvas, so he just sat on the center rope and let fox keep hitting him until the ref stopped it.

re: weak points: a trainer told me bob satterfield's weakness was to blows to the side of his head.

coley wallace....a hyped heavy had a lot going for him but had what they called a "swan's neck"....too long, not enough muscle.

ray robinson had a long neck, but exercised the muscles from his neck to his shoulder with extreme dedication and built them up. he was great at rolling with punches but he could take a hell of a punch too.

sandy saddler is one for boxbuzz to comment on....long skinny body...long skinny neck but had a great chin...kayoed only once in is long career..and that in his second fight when he was overmatched.

rocky marciano...was like the dinosaurs...his brain was too small to feel punches so he didn't know when he was hit hard.
Do I detect some bitterness there against Marciano, Jaclem?

A large head is characteristic of fighters with great chins.

Marciano's head was almost as large as the breadth of his shoulders.

LaMotta's head was HUGE. Look at the photo of LaMotta in the ring just after he won the title from Cerdan with Joe Louis standing next to him wearing a light colored suit.

LaMotta's head is noticeably larger than Louis', even though Louis was a head taller than Jake and weighed 40 pounds more than Jake for all his fights.

Henry Armstrong told how he really wanted to get even with Mexican Baby Arizmendi by knocking him out to avenge earlier losses to Arizmendi,

but that he couldn't knock Arizmendi out.

Armstrong commented on the huge size of Arizmendi's head, saying it was impossible to knock him out.

Tony Canzoneri had a great chin. His head and neck were large in proportion to the rest of him.

Another great chin was Jack Dillon, who was never knocked out in his entire career.

Max Baer had a great chin.

Joe Louis said hitting him was like "trying to knock a brick out of a wall."

Greb and Mickey Walker certainly had great chins.

Carnera had a great chin. And a lot of courage.

He was on his feet at the end of his losses to Baer and Louis.

Fullmer had an all time great chin, and his one punch KO loss to Robinson is unexplainable.

very true, I've noticed also that Librado Andrade and Carlos Baldomir have pretty large domes too, not to mention Nicolay Valuev's Mount Rushmore-sized cranium.

'Rocket'Rigby · Post by **'Rocket'Rigby** » 31 May 2007, 16:02

Jaclem wrote:rocky marciano...was like the dinosaurs...his brain was too small to feel punches so he didn't know when he was hit hard.

A little disrespectful... Marciano used his weaknesses in height and reach to form a solid defense. He made himself smaller and risked everything in getting in close, making himself extremely vulnerable and easy to hit. But he could take a punch, nothing wrong with his chin. (And I doubt any stories surrounding a 2" thick skull to be not true). As far as Marciano's brain I don't think he did that bad for himself do you?

Getting back to the topic, rolling with punches, deflecting them, commitment, will and desire to throw a punch spurred Marciano on to take a punch. Take one to deliver one, the difference was that Marciano's was the KO punch.

Rocket
______
Molon Labe!

Is There a Secret To a Strong Chin?

Is There a Secret To a Strong Chin?

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