My view on the 60's Ali, least from Cooper to Chuvalo is that, its funny how Ali was caught and dropped by Cooper's left hook and everybody says that the excuse is because Ali was still just a young man who knew no better; but in his next fight (against Liston) they say it was a masterful performance and certainly one of Ali's best.
I don't see how the time in between both fights could have made Ali a better fighter---if he was 'just 24' when he fought Chuvalo and people discredit Chuvalo for going the limit with Ali, yet say Liston was a masterpiece...I see nothing but loose ends and holes in the theory that the 1960's Ali was 'better' than the Ali of the 1970's.
Dunno if anyone made sense of what I just said, but hopefully some can see the sense or at least some logic in what I just said.
Ali was still just 21 years and in his 19th fight when he fought Cooper. He was still at a stage when he was improving with each fight.
Ali was in control of the Cooper fight except for the knockown. He was winning easily until he got careless and got caught with a great punch. He got up immediately and stopped Cooper in the next round. It was actually a great learning experience for Ali. When he fought Liston he didn't make that kind of mistake.
Two years later at the age of 24, Ali was even better. He had matured physically and had gained valuable experience. That year (1966) he made 5 title defenses. He won all 5 very easily.
I don't know who you are refering to that discredit Chuvalo for going the distance; he fought as well as he was capable of. Chuvalo did at least as well as anyone else did against a prime Ali. Chuvalo was a fighter that applied a lot of pressure but Ali had no trouble whatsoever handling it. Chuvalo won maybe 3 of 15 rounds.
Chuvalo was similar in style and ability as Bonavena. That Ali had more trouble with Bonavena is yet more evidence that he wasn't as good as he had once been.
From 1964-1967 Ali was in 10 title fights against good competition. He won 8 by knockout and the other two by lopsided decisions. He was never knocked down, hurt, or come remotely close to losing.
Ali in the 1970's fought even better competition, but he himself wasn't as good.
As far as seeing a lot of holes that Ali was better in the 1960's than the 1970's-Well I guess that matters if you are counting Ali's pre title fights in the early 1960's. However if you look at what Ali did during his 1964-1967 title reign, where are the holes?
Rocky Marciano: An Enduring Legacy Into Mythology
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
The main reason why I think a Marciano, Frazier would have beaten Ali at that stage in his career was that, despite Ali being so great physically in the 1960's he had not really faced a man who had quite the combination of toughness, persistance, ferocity, work rate, power and style.As far as seeing a lot of holes that Ali was better in the 1960's than the 1970's-Well I guess that matters if you are counting Ali's pre title fights in the early 1960's. However if you look at what Ali did during his 1964-1967 title reign, where are the holes?
I say this because for one---it was evident early on Ali never was too good with left handers or body punchers. Charlie Powell had Ali hurt early with body shots, though Ali would beat him in 3 rounds. He also had trouble with the likes of Sonny Banks, who floored Ali, though Ali too would beat him quick. Then of course the Cooper fight.
This of course can be quickly dismissed as these were when Ali was a younger man and more green---but you asked where are the holes in his championship reign? Well let's look at that more closely. First his opposition:
2 wins over Sonny Liston: The first time they fought Liston never trained seriously, let alone took Ali seriously and was totally outclassed. The second fight was a farce, being as so much added drama was surrounding the fight and a true embarassment to refereeing. Liston could have fought on, and only stayed down because Ali was standing over him. As Liston explained later on, had he got up he would have been exposed to a great shot.
Henry Cooper: Wasn't anything that was expected, but was much closer than their first encounter. Again Cooper was badly cut and it was stopped.
Karl Mildenberger: The first lefty that Ali would fight as champion, and the german based fighter was vertical for 11 rounds, only to be stopped in the 12th. The fight was also somewhat close. Being a left hander really helped Mildenberger, considering [if you ask Chuvalo and others] the German wasn't really anything special.
Brian London: A speed bag against a punching bag. London had no chance whatsoever and certainly didn't deserve no title shot in the least, let alone no business being in the ring with Ali, even as a sparring partner.
George Chuvalo: Won some rounds with his body punching, never taking a backwards step and pressed Ali the entire time. Ali would later say that Chuvalo was his toughest fight during that time. Chuvalo goes the distance without being knocked off his feet; at that time Chuvalo's two best fights was a loss to Patterson and his TKO win over Joe Erskine in the 'washerwoman' fight.
Floyd Patterson: Solid opponent for Ali, but couldn't quite match the speed and elusiveness of Ali. Made the mistake of trying to box Ali, and lost widely. The former 2x HW champion had yet to quite reach his peak as a fighter, as he was to later fight Quarry and fight Mathis in what was a total highway robbery---but you can't take this away from Ali, it was a genuinely easy win over a former champion who was still young.
Ernie Terrell: Never was quite a great fighter, was tall and had a reach, but was totally outclassed/brawled and not to mention fouled numerous times by an enraged Ali. Ali could have taken him out at any time, but refused to end it, and continued his assault on Terrell.
Cleveland Williams: Sometimes called Ali's best performance as champion. But Williams wasn't the same fighter that he was, was on the downside, but still packed a pretty mean punch. Again, Ali outclasses Williams and wins by KO in 3 rounds.
Zora Folley: Solid contender, and in my opinion was Ali's best performance from that time. Folley lasted until the 7th, but his counter punching style was no match for Ali's speed and was knocked out.
The holes? Well, at least six of the title fights were against guys who had no business being in there with Ali or that it was a joke (the second Liston fight). So genuinely Ali had 4 title defenses that actually meant anything: Patterson, the first Liston fight, Chuvalo and Folley.
My argument is, if Ali fought a man who was a deadly left hand puncher (Frazier was, and Marciano had an all but equally impressive left hand as well), combined with the toughness of a Chuvalo (which Frazier and Marciano was, if not more so in respects), who never backed up (which they never did), and never stopped punching (which they never did either) and did alot of body work (their speciality) then Ali would pretty much be fucked.
Ali was at his peak physically, yes, but I do not believe he would have had the mental attributes to have got himself together enough to be able to effectively fight off someone with the ferocity of Marciano and Frazier. Now had Ali not been banned from boxing, I think an Ali-Frazier 68-69 superfight would have proven more in Joe's favor---though a rematch would have probably went to Ali, as Ali could re-invent himself as a better fighter a second/third go around. Frazier in the 1968-1971 period was at his absoloute peak in ability as a fighter, and still in 1975, when he was in decline, gave Ali his toughest fight ever in the Thrilla in Manila.
Ali was great, but its his mind, that has me worried, least from that time period. You know? He wasn't ever quite tested like that until the 1970's, and that's probably why he looked like shit against Bonavena and failed against Joe Frazier in 1971. Besides, Ali also didn't take Frazier seriously when they fought the first time, so that also plays into my theory about him not being mentally prepared or mature enough to be a complete fighter.
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HomicideHenry
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I Feel Fine
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The thing about that is you can do that with any champion. I did that myself with Marciano's title reign.. lol
You say Ali had four meaningful defenses. This is part of why I feel sometimes that Ali is held to too high a standard. If Ali's not fighting a HOF'er he's going to get questioned for it. How many meaningful title fights did Joe Louis have, by that standard? Braddock, Schmeling, Conn, Walcott, Walcott? Are Godoy or Galento or Farr better than Terrell or Cooper? I don't know. I would suspect not, though I haven't seen and don't know much about those fighters outside of their fights with Louis. Some people make 80's Tyson out to be the second coming because of his first title reign, but no one he fought then was as good as Liston or Patterson.
Anyway, to me its easy to say "well Ali wouldn't be ready" if he fights Frazier and Marciano in the 60's. But would Marciano be ready against the best boxer he ever fought, who had such a big size and speed advantage? How would Frazier fair with an Ali he would have a harder time getting to? Even if Ali isn't as mentally tough in the 60's (which again, we don't know) he's not going to fold either. He's still going to be better in the championship rounds than Ali was in the real fight in 71.
And as I said earlier about a potential Ali-Frazier fight in 68-69, Ali would have met Bonavena by then, anyway, so if there was something he needed to learn about how to fight that kind of fighter he would have learned it. And because he would have been active going into the fight, he wouldn't fall apart against Joe.
I think its a red herring to say Ali looked bad against Bonavena because of his mind. Ali never backed down from Bonavena, and that wasn't the issue anyway. Ali looked like shit because he looked like shit, it was the sloppiest performance of his career to that point and he looked physically terrible. Just watch Robinson vs. Tiger Jones and watch Ali vs. Bonavena, and maybe even Ali vs. Frazier, and you'll see the parallels. Very sloppy, they look tired all throughout the fight, their punches don't look the same. I think its easy for us to say "it doesn't matter, three years off isn't going to effect you physically" but we're not the ones going through it. I don't think most boxers would look good against Bonavena and especially Frazier coming off that break. Would Holyfield? Would Tyson? Would Marciano? We already talked about how Louis didn't look the same when he came back from his break... and he had been sparring and training that whole time, putting on exhibitions. Frazier is the worst person you can fight when you're not 100%. Never gets tired, never stops throwing punches, you can't get lucky and stop him with one punch (especially when you're someone like Ali who doesn't hit especially hard)... I can't think of too many opponents who are worse for a fighter who is coming off that kind of break.
I guess we're just looking at this from different points of view.
You say Ali had four meaningful defenses. This is part of why I feel sometimes that Ali is held to too high a standard. If Ali's not fighting a HOF'er he's going to get questioned for it. How many meaningful title fights did Joe Louis have, by that standard? Braddock, Schmeling, Conn, Walcott, Walcott? Are Godoy or Galento or Farr better than Terrell or Cooper? I don't know. I would suspect not, though I haven't seen and don't know much about those fighters outside of their fights with Louis. Some people make 80's Tyson out to be the second coming because of his first title reign, but no one he fought then was as good as Liston or Patterson.
Anyway, to me its easy to say "well Ali wouldn't be ready" if he fights Frazier and Marciano in the 60's. But would Marciano be ready against the best boxer he ever fought, who had such a big size and speed advantage? How would Frazier fair with an Ali he would have a harder time getting to? Even if Ali isn't as mentally tough in the 60's (which again, we don't know) he's not going to fold either. He's still going to be better in the championship rounds than Ali was in the real fight in 71.
And as I said earlier about a potential Ali-Frazier fight in 68-69, Ali would have met Bonavena by then, anyway, so if there was something he needed to learn about how to fight that kind of fighter he would have learned it. And because he would have been active going into the fight, he wouldn't fall apart against Joe.
I think its a red herring to say Ali looked bad against Bonavena because of his mind. Ali never backed down from Bonavena, and that wasn't the issue anyway. Ali looked like shit because he looked like shit, it was the sloppiest performance of his career to that point and he looked physically terrible. Just watch Robinson vs. Tiger Jones and watch Ali vs. Bonavena, and maybe even Ali vs. Frazier, and you'll see the parallels. Very sloppy, they look tired all throughout the fight, their punches don't look the same. I think its easy for us to say "it doesn't matter, three years off isn't going to effect you physically" but we're not the ones going through it. I don't think most boxers would look good against Bonavena and especially Frazier coming off that break. Would Holyfield? Would Tyson? Would Marciano? We already talked about how Louis didn't look the same when he came back from his break... and he had been sparring and training that whole time, putting on exhibitions. Frazier is the worst person you can fight when you're not 100%. Never gets tired, never stops throwing punches, you can't get lucky and stop him with one punch (especially when you're someone like Ali who doesn't hit especially hard)... I can't think of too many opponents who are worse for a fighter who is coming off that kind of break.
I guess we're just looking at this from different points of view.
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
I Feel Fine- You made some good points. It's not surprising that you have a different viewpoint than homicide henry. You have to realize that HomicideHenry absolutley hates Ali. He once started 5 anti-Ali threads in less than 3 months. In the past he has made up quotes from Ali, and says that things that simply aren't true.
That Ali only made 4 meaningful defenses during this time is priceless.
Ernie Terrell doesn't count? At the time they fought, Terrell was the 2nd best heavyweight in the world. He beat Jones,Machen,Chuvalo,Williams, and Folley.
Mildenberger wasn't good just because Chuvalo supposedly said so? Mildenberger was a pretty good fighter. He beat Machen and had a draw with Folley.
Cleveland Williams only had one loss in the last 6 years. (close decison loss to Terrell.)
Obviously Cooper had some ups and downs but he certainly was a respectable opponent.
He even tries to deemphasize the win over Liston by saying Liston didn't take Ali seriously. Guess what, you could say that with almost every champion that lost his title.
Ali certainly could take body punches. Fighters tried it against him frequently throughout his career with little success.
Ali had trouble with lefthanders? Like who?
If you want to spins things a certain way, you can rip anyone. Marciano won dubious decisons over LaStarza and journeyman Ted Lowry before he won the title. He didn't look good in several fights.
Once again though the bottom line; In Ali's first title reign (1964-1967), he was 10-0 with 8 knockouts and 2 lopsided decisions. His competition was as good as any heavyweight champion. It was also against a wide range of styles. No other heavyweight champion had this dominaint of title reign.
That Ali only made 4 meaningful defenses during this time is priceless.
Ernie Terrell doesn't count? At the time they fought, Terrell was the 2nd best heavyweight in the world. He beat Jones,Machen,Chuvalo,Williams, and Folley.
Mildenberger wasn't good just because Chuvalo supposedly said so? Mildenberger was a pretty good fighter. He beat Machen and had a draw with Folley.
Cleveland Williams only had one loss in the last 6 years. (close decison loss to Terrell.)
Obviously Cooper had some ups and downs but he certainly was a respectable opponent.
He even tries to deemphasize the win over Liston by saying Liston didn't take Ali seriously. Guess what, you could say that with almost every champion that lost his title.
Ali certainly could take body punches. Fighters tried it against him frequently throughout his career with little success.
Ali had trouble with lefthanders? Like who?
If you want to spins things a certain way, you can rip anyone. Marciano won dubious decisons over LaStarza and journeyman Ted Lowry before he won the title. He didn't look good in several fights.
Once again though the bottom line; In Ali's first title reign (1964-1967), he was 10-0 with 8 knockouts and 2 lopsided decisions. His competition was as good as any heavyweight champion. It was also against a wide range of styles. No other heavyweight champion had this dominaint of title reign.
Homecide...here is the computers take on the Cooper Match....little respect given to the Englishman from the cyberbot I'm afraid.
http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... highlight=
http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... highlight=
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Over the hill Rocky Marciano gets dropped by Henry Cooper in the 1st round for a count of 7, but comes back like he done against Ezzard Charles and smashes the Brit inside of the second round. Myself I don't exactly see this happening, being as short as it was. But then again Cooper was knocked cold by Patterson in 4-5 rounds, who wasn't anywhere the hitter Rocky was...but then again, this Cooper was the pre-prime Cooper who had yet to meet Folley, Patterson, Ali twice, Bugner and the like.
I would have seen it as being a TKO in 5 or 6 rounds.
Nonetheless Rocky makes it through this 'easy' defense against 'Enry. Marciano is now 35 years of age and his record stands at 54-0 with 48 knock outs. Marciano is on the cusp of retirement. The twilight of his career has all but come and went, but there is still one last fight out there for him to take....
A man by the name of Ingemar Johansson, an Olympic Silver Medalist, who also picked up the European HW title, had just knocked Patterson and Machen out in a combined four rounds and had posted a win over Henry Cooper a few years prior. he is clearly the number one contender, and will undoubtedly be the hardest punching man that Rocky has yet to face, and who is in his prime.
Rocky can't help but fight him. The money is all there and the thought that a wild swinging Swede could very well be the next HW champion, if he vacates the belt, is too much for him to bare. Rocky trains above and beyond, though the strain is evident. He must, for this will be the very last fight of his career. There is nobody left outside of Sonny Liston than this European by the name of Ingo.
BoxBuzz....post prime Marciano (trains extra hard) against the Johansson who just beaten Patterson the first time.
Personal prediction? Marciano gets dropped in the early going, and gets battered around for a few rounds, but slowly but surely he gets in his shots. Johansson starts to tire in around the 7th-8th round after pegging Marciano with shot after shot, winging with abandon. Rocky starts to come back, a second wind, and batters the arms, ribs, belly of Johansson, and has Johansson on queer street in the 9th. In the 10th, it happens...Rocky manages to land Susie Q on the jaw of Patterson and follows a pile drive of a left right behind it for good measure.
Johansson tries to beat the count, gets on his feet, but is still so shook up that the referee waves it off with just a minute or so to go. Rocky Marciano wins via TKO in the 10th, after trailing on points. The rounds were 8-1 for Johansson by the time of the kayo. It was a great performance out of both men, especially for Rocky, as it was eerily reminiscent of his battle with Joe Walcott years before.
Rocky Marciano retires, 55-0 with 49 KO's. Still the undefeated HW champion of the world.
But that's just me. Let's see what the computer has to say. BoxBuzz, will you do the honors?
I would have seen it as being a TKO in 5 or 6 rounds.
Nonetheless Rocky makes it through this 'easy' defense against 'Enry. Marciano is now 35 years of age and his record stands at 54-0 with 48 knock outs. Marciano is on the cusp of retirement. The twilight of his career has all but come and went, but there is still one last fight out there for him to take....
A man by the name of Ingemar Johansson, an Olympic Silver Medalist, who also picked up the European HW title, had just knocked Patterson and Machen out in a combined four rounds and had posted a win over Henry Cooper a few years prior. he is clearly the number one contender, and will undoubtedly be the hardest punching man that Rocky has yet to face, and who is in his prime.
Rocky can't help but fight him. The money is all there and the thought that a wild swinging Swede could very well be the next HW champion, if he vacates the belt, is too much for him to bare. Rocky trains above and beyond, though the strain is evident. He must, for this will be the very last fight of his career. There is nobody left outside of Sonny Liston than this European by the name of Ingo.
BoxBuzz....post prime Marciano (trains extra hard) against the Johansson who just beaten Patterson the first time.
Personal prediction? Marciano gets dropped in the early going, and gets battered around for a few rounds, but slowly but surely he gets in his shots. Johansson starts to tire in around the 7th-8th round after pegging Marciano with shot after shot, winging with abandon. Rocky starts to come back, a second wind, and batters the arms, ribs, belly of Johansson, and has Johansson on queer street in the 9th. In the 10th, it happens...Rocky manages to land Susie Q on the jaw of Patterson and follows a pile drive of a left right behind it for good measure.
Johansson tries to beat the count, gets on his feet, but is still so shook up that the referee waves it off with just a minute or so to go. Rocky Marciano wins via TKO in the 10th, after trailing on points. The rounds were 8-1 for Johansson by the time of the kayo. It was a great performance out of both men, especially for Rocky, as it was eerily reminiscent of his battle with Joe Walcott years before.
Rocky Marciano retires, 55-0 with 49 KO's. Still the undefeated HW champion of the world.
But that's just me. Let's see what the computer has to say. BoxBuzz, will you do the honors?
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Marciano Frazier
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 326
- Joined: 29 Jul 2003, 13:13
Now, I don't think Marciano stopping Cooper in two is unlikely at all. Let's not forget that, square in the middle of his prime, Cooper was knocked out in two by Folley and in four by Patterson. Unlike most of Marciano's opponents, Cooper was more of an aggressive fighter than a defensive one. Marciano wouldn't have to search for him. I think Cooper being flattened early is very likely.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
BoxBuzz....I think it should still be 'post prime' Rocky versus a prime Ingemar Johansson. It ain't quite the end of a career until someone retires so that you can judge back on it---in this case, hypothetically, we can see Marciano is already in some decline, but he's still dangerous considering all the wins so far have been by kayo so can't quite say that just yet.
#2- What Ali quotes have I made up? I totally disagree on this remark. It's simply not at all true and its a down right attack on my own person. I suggest you apologise, because to my knowledge I have never ever made up any quotes about any fighter ever on this board. You may not like my opinions, but dont make up lies to go along with it.
#3- Again, what things are 'simply not true'? What things have you read from me personally are simply not true? Give me links to these so-called lies I have said.
And thats all I have to say.
#1- Yes I did make threads about Ali that wasn't in what fans of his would call a positive light. But I am most certainly not 'anti-Ali'. I just personally believe that the man is more hyped than any other fighter just because he is Ali and because he had a mouth, which made him more entertaining than any other HW in history.I Feel Fine- You made some good points. It's not surprising that you have a different viewpoint than homicide henry. You have to realize that HomicideHenry absolutley hates Ali. He once started 5 anti-Ali threads in less than 3 months. In the past he has made up quotes from Ali, and says that things that simply aren't true.
#2- What Ali quotes have I made up? I totally disagree on this remark. It's simply not at all true and its a down right attack on my own person. I suggest you apologise, because to my knowledge I have never ever made up any quotes about any fighter ever on this board. You may not like my opinions, but dont make up lies to go along with it.
#3- Again, what things are 'simply not true'? What things have you read from me personally are simply not true? Give me links to these so-called lies I have said.
And thats all I have to say.
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
You have started so many anti-Ali threads it's ridiculaus. Some of the silly comments:
On the thread you started "Muhammad Ali- the other end of the Spectrum."
As a boxer, Ali was lackluster.
Ali avoided the better contenders.
Ali got special treatment when after a 3 year exile he got to fight the # 2 contender, Jerry Quarry.
On Feb 17 Thread that you started-"George Foreman Why was he denied?'- You say that it was inexusable that he never got a rematch. After myself and others point out that Foreman didn't fight for more than a year after the fist fight, that he didn't deserve a rematch right away. It was also pointed out that he then lost to Young, you still insist that he Foreman should have got another shot.
you mention contenders that Ali fought in 1976 and don't mention Ken Norton.
February 27 Thread that you started "Corbett as fast as Ali" Your "evidence" is that Nat Fleischer opinion. Never mind that fleischer was a kid when Corbett fought, and that you are relying on Fleischer recollection 60yerars after Corbett fought. Not to mention that Fleischer didn't like modern fighters and Ali in particular.
On the same thread-Ali had [proved that he was the fastest, but little else at the time Fleischer died. (1972.) How stupid is that?
Time after time you mention in threads the Cooper knockdown of Ali as if that is some sort of smoking gun that Ali couldn't take a punch. You even go as far as saying that Cooper would have won if it wasn't for th torn glove and the delay.
You have said that you think that if Frazier wouldnt have come out for the the 15 th round in the 3rd fight against Ali that he would have knocked out Ali. Your evidence was that Ali slumped to the canvas after it was announced that the fight was over.
So what? He probably would have slumped over if the fight would have ended after the 12th or 13 th round as well.
Frazier was in no condition to kncokout Ali. He was having serious problems seeing punches coming. Ali had teed off on him the last two rounds. It makes you wonder if you ever saw the fight.
These opinions are flat out ridiculaus. You would have to be vehemently anti-Ali and/or misinformed about his career to say these things.
You say so many things that are factually wrong that it's hard to know if you are just making things up or what. Such as:
December 30 Thread-Teofilo Stevenson -In the 1960's it was hinted that Stevenson would come out of the pro ranks and not just for a fight but for the Fight (Ali). That's hard to believe. Stevenson was a teenager who hadn't even won his first gold medal in the 1960's.
On February 16, thread that you started about Johannson-Pre Liston Cassius Clay-You mention that besides Cooper that Clay had been knocked down by other lesser opponents- Wrong. Sonny Banks was the only other one.
On February 27 2007 thread about "Gentleman Jim Corbett: As fast as Ali"
You kept saying that Corbett was a middleweight. Wrong. He simply wasn't. People pointed out that the evidence showing that he wasn't and you you still seemed to think Corbett was a middleweight.
On the same thread you mentioned that Nat Fleischer saw Norton break Ali's jaw. Wrong. He couldn't have since he died the year before.
There are so many things that you said regarding the Marciano-Ali film that are so ridiculaus that it's hard to say if you are making it up or actually believe it.
In this thread, you say that Ali had trouble with left handers. I replied 'like who?" You don't even respond because there is no one.
I just wish you would stop the excessive anti-Ali comments. You have started at least 5 anti-ali threads. You have also constantly slipped in anti-Ali comments on other threads. Almost all of them are based on false statements or ill-logic.
On the thread you started "Muhammad Ali- the other end of the Spectrum."
As a boxer, Ali was lackluster.
Ali avoided the better contenders.
Ali got special treatment when after a 3 year exile he got to fight the # 2 contender, Jerry Quarry.
On Feb 17 Thread that you started-"George Foreman Why was he denied?'- You say that it was inexusable that he never got a rematch. After myself and others point out that Foreman didn't fight for more than a year after the fist fight, that he didn't deserve a rematch right away. It was also pointed out that he then lost to Young, you still insist that he Foreman should have got another shot.
you mention contenders that Ali fought in 1976 and don't mention Ken Norton.
February 27 Thread that you started "Corbett as fast as Ali" Your "evidence" is that Nat Fleischer opinion. Never mind that fleischer was a kid when Corbett fought, and that you are relying on Fleischer recollection 60yerars after Corbett fought. Not to mention that Fleischer didn't like modern fighters and Ali in particular.
On the same thread-Ali had [proved that he was the fastest, but little else at the time Fleischer died. (1972.) How stupid is that?
Time after time you mention in threads the Cooper knockdown of Ali as if that is some sort of smoking gun that Ali couldn't take a punch. You even go as far as saying that Cooper would have won if it wasn't for th torn glove and the delay.
You have said that you think that if Frazier wouldnt have come out for the the 15 th round in the 3rd fight against Ali that he would have knocked out Ali. Your evidence was that Ali slumped to the canvas after it was announced that the fight was over.
So what? He probably would have slumped over if the fight would have ended after the 12th or 13 th round as well.
Frazier was in no condition to kncokout Ali. He was having serious problems seeing punches coming. Ali had teed off on him the last two rounds. It makes you wonder if you ever saw the fight.
These opinions are flat out ridiculaus. You would have to be vehemently anti-Ali and/or misinformed about his career to say these things.
You say so many things that are factually wrong that it's hard to know if you are just making things up or what. Such as:
December 30 Thread-Teofilo Stevenson -In the 1960's it was hinted that Stevenson would come out of the pro ranks and not just for a fight but for the Fight (Ali). That's hard to believe. Stevenson was a teenager who hadn't even won his first gold medal in the 1960's.
On February 16, thread that you started about Johannson-Pre Liston Cassius Clay-You mention that besides Cooper that Clay had been knocked down by other lesser opponents- Wrong. Sonny Banks was the only other one.
On February 27 2007 thread about "Gentleman Jim Corbett: As fast as Ali"
You kept saying that Corbett was a middleweight. Wrong. He simply wasn't. People pointed out that the evidence showing that he wasn't and you you still seemed to think Corbett was a middleweight.
On the same thread you mentioned that Nat Fleischer saw Norton break Ali's jaw. Wrong. He couldn't have since he died the year before.
There are so many things that you said regarding the Marciano-Ali film that are so ridiculaus that it's hard to say if you are making it up or actually believe it.
In this thread, you say that Ali had trouble with left handers. I replied 'like who?" You don't even respond because there is no one.
I just wish you would stop the excessive anti-Ali comments. You have started at least 5 anti-ali threads. You have also constantly slipped in anti-Ali comments on other threads. Almost all of them are based on false statements or ill-logic.
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I Feel Fine
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 2097
- Joined: 10 Apr 2007, 16:48
Well I don't really want to get into all that since I haven't been here long and wasn't here for it. But saying Ali is overhyped because he talked and was entertaining, that I disagree with pretty ardently. Louis and Marciano get as much mileage out of their own popularity, and Ali's record speaks for itself. He could have been quiet and reclusive, that doesn't change who he fought and who he beat.
As for Marciano-Cooper/Johannson, I think its impossible to say how Rocky would look at 35. I could never think of Cooper and Johannson beating him, but at that age whose to say. That's old for a fighter, and with his style he might have been burnt out by then. But I guess its possible, Cooper and Johannson are beatable for Rocky.
As for Marciano-Cooper/Johannson, I think its impossible to say how Rocky would look at 35. I could never think of Cooper and Johannson beating him, but at that age whose to say. That's old for a fighter, and with his style he might have been burnt out by then. But I guess its possible, Cooper and Johannson are beatable for Rocky.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
I already put down Mildenberger. And he remained vertical for the longest time, considering he was more or less just a European based fighter.In this thread, you say that Ali had trouble with left handers. I replied 'like who?" You don't even respond because there is no one.
#1- As far as Foreman is concerned it is usually a gimme that a champion who lost his title usually gets an automatic return against the man who defeated him. Foreman didn't get that, while Lewis did against Rahman, Fitzsimmons did against Jefferies, etc. That's the only point I was trying to make.
#2- I do think it is somewhat special treatment that Ali gets a fight with #2 ranked Jerry Quarry after 3yrs inactivity. I also feel the same way with Sugar Ray Leonard getting a shot at Marvin Hagler after being gone a long time as well. I know there is a vast difference between getting a fight with a top ranked man and a champion, but none the less.
#3- The only reason why I brought up Corbett (outside of Nat's opinion) was that many articles from the time declared that Corbett was all but unreachable, like trying to catch a 'dancing moonbeam', and because the HW classes are so much different---I proposed that because Corbett was somewhere around MW-SMW (amateur and early pro career) and not much bigger than a modern LHW that Corbett could very well have had the speed to match Ali.
#4- Well, Ali did prove he was the fastest now didn't he? But outside of that, what else did we learn about him? He was so damn fast we could never tell how he would have been in a real knock down drag out fight. It never happened, so therefore you can't say that he was 'unbeatable' or the greatest, because he was yet to be really tested bone to bone and balls to the walls---when he got slower in the 1970's, he proved he could.
#5- Ali probably would have lost to Frazier by knockout in the Thrilla in Manila. I onl ysaid it not because he collapsed on his stool, but because Ali kept going on and on how he felt he was dying and that Frazier just quit before he did. And Ali collapsed on the floor. Both men were spent, and who knows what one more round would have done. AND as far as Frazier having 'eye sight' problems and not seeing Ali throw punches, you must not know jack shit on Frazier considering the man had 20x100 vision in BOTH of his eyes to start off with. Frazier would have kept on coming, to his own admission he was fighting by 'sensing shadows' for alot of the fight.
#6- I won't even go into the Marciano-Ali 'superfight' considering your among one of the biggest Marciano bashers here on this site, so no amount of talk is going to ever change your mind.
#7- And I already admitted my fault with the Stevenson thread, I wrote down the 1960's rather than the 1970's which is when the 'fight' or series of fights was to happen...I believe around 1978-1979? Anyways, it was a typographical error. Seems like you really like to find the faults in everybody.
#8- All I said was that Nat Fleischer can't be written off as a total idiot because he never got to see all of Ali's great feats. All Fleischer would have been able to see is his first championship reign, him being banned for refusing induction which made him appear anti-American, then come back and have a hard time with Quarry and Bonavena and then lose to Frazier. Yes I do believe I said Fleischer probably saw Ali get his jaw jacked by Norton, but to tell the truth I don't know the exact date for all of Ali's fights and Fleischer's death...only guys living in their mom's basements with no gf's know all this info. So my apologies.
#9- As far as Cooper is concerned...it made Ali look bad. simple as that. then throw in him being dropped by Sonny Banks, getting hurt with body shots by Charlie Powell---it showed that Ali's chin wasn't impregnable. Blame it that he was being cocky and arrogant, but it always seems there is a 'well Ali was too young' or 'well Ali was too cocky' or 'Ali was over the hill'...there is always an excuse to forgive him of his faults. And I'm with the crowd in London from back then "THESE GLOVES (HENRY's) DID NOT SPLIT!"
But all things aside...I say this again....I do not hate Ali, I do rate him up inside the top three HW's of all time...but I do not believe he was the all-around greatest fighter to ever lace up the gloves either, like so many believe that he is. Their perceptions are warped from nearly 30yrs of 'nastalgic' memories and constant play after play of his fights and interviews with people hyping him up.
The power of suggestion is a mighty thing indeed.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
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I Feel Fine
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 2097
- Joined: 10 Apr 2007, 16:48
I don't think Ali is the greatest fighter of all time, I would rate Robinson and Armstrong and probably Pep ahead of him.
I disagree with three things, though...
I don't think Foreman not getting a rematch was Ali's fault. Ali said after Manila that he wanted Foreman and Norton to fight, and he would fight the winner and retire. I think Foreman taking a year off was the main reason for there not being a rematch.
I don't think Frazier could KO Ali in the 15th just in that Frazier could barely throw a punch at that point, he was throwing arm punches. I don't know that Ali's collapsing after the fight indicates that he couldn't have handled a 15th or not, it may have been out of relief that the fight was over?
I would assume Quarry fought him for the money? It probably would have been better for Ali if he hadn't gotten thrown right in with those guys. If he had worked his way up the ranks he wouldn't have had any rust by the time he met Frazier. I pointed out earlier than Ali was Fighter of the Year in 72, if he had fought Frazier then he probably would have been in better shape. Maybe if he has to work his way into the top 10 with two or three fights, then fights Quarry and Bonavena, then gets Frazier he'd have been better off. That said, why is this special treatment for Ali? Jeffries got thrown right back in with Johnson after he came back. Louis got thrown right back in with Charles after he came back. As you said, Leonard got the same treatment with Hagler. This isnt' unsual.
I actually saw film of Corbett-Fitzsimmons yesterday... pretty special, considering the fight was in 1897... it was only a few seconds, and part of it was him getting KO'd by the body shot, so I can't comment on what I thought of him. But I would be surprised if he was faster than Ali.
I disagree with three things, though...
I don't think Foreman not getting a rematch was Ali's fault. Ali said after Manila that he wanted Foreman and Norton to fight, and he would fight the winner and retire. I think Foreman taking a year off was the main reason for there not being a rematch.
I don't think Frazier could KO Ali in the 15th just in that Frazier could barely throw a punch at that point, he was throwing arm punches. I don't know that Ali's collapsing after the fight indicates that he couldn't have handled a 15th or not, it may have been out of relief that the fight was over?
I would assume Quarry fought him for the money? It probably would have been better for Ali if he hadn't gotten thrown right in with those guys. If he had worked his way up the ranks he wouldn't have had any rust by the time he met Frazier. I pointed out earlier than Ali was Fighter of the Year in 72, if he had fought Frazier then he probably would have been in better shape. Maybe if he has to work his way into the top 10 with two or three fights, then fights Quarry and Bonavena, then gets Frazier he'd have been better off. That said, why is this special treatment for Ali? Jeffries got thrown right back in with Johnson after he came back. Louis got thrown right back in with Charles after he came back. As you said, Leonard got the same treatment with Hagler. This isnt' unsual.
I actually saw film of Corbett-Fitzsimmons yesterday... pretty special, considering the fight was in 1897... it was only a few seconds, and part of it was him getting KO'd by the body shot, so I can't comment on what I thought of him. But I would be surprised if he was faster than Ali.
Last edited by I Feel Fine on 29 May 2007, 19:28, edited 1 time in total.
'enry, your ok, but you appear to be in desperate need of more quality information regarding Ali. Many holes in your litany of items, and you seem to have run with some items that just don't hold up under scrutiny. However as I recall this is a Marciano thread....so I'll serve up another fight right away.HomicideHenry wrote:sorry, again, for double post but...
last hypothetical: Rocky Marciano (post prime) vs Ingemar Johansson (prime)
Your no relative of granberry and/or Rocky50project by any chance?
Just kidding, we need all opinions in the mix.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
I do like watching those old films from time to time, but then again, all of it was in it's infancy and hand cranked. The true 'speed' from the fighters is just not there and it's somewhat unfair to judge the fighters on those early films, as they were so slow. I do know that Corbett once landed 100 punches to his opponents 6 in a period of 5 minutes. That's awfully fast and elusive out of Corbett.
Lol, BoxBuzz, someday I will do a thread again on Ali and put some more thought into it. Break it down bit by bit, year by year. See how it goes. Right now I just don't have the time. But I'm sure to give both sides of the equation their own justice.
And NO, HELL NAH. Lol, I am in no way related to Granberry.
And thanks, for doing the hypothetical.
It will be the last one, considering a Marciano-Liston fight would more or less end in complete disaster for Rocky at this stage of his career. Rocky would have no chance, and Liston would be the only man really out there for Rocky to face.
Lol, BoxBuzz, someday I will do a thread again on Ali and put some more thought into it. Break it down bit by bit, year by year. See how it goes. Right now I just don't have the time. But I'm sure to give both sides of the equation their own justice.
And NO, HELL NAH. Lol, I am in no way related to Granberry.
And thanks, for doing the hypothetical.
It will be the last one, considering a Marciano-Liston fight would more or less end in complete disaster for Rocky at this stage of his career. Rocky would have no chance, and Liston would be the only man really out there for Rocky to face.-
I Feel Fine
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 2097
- Joined: 10 Apr 2007, 16:48
Marciano-Ingo......
This is one Marciano pined for.....I think he was dissapointed when the Swede didn't win the rematch with Floyd. He wanted the fight with Ingo but not with Floyd...from what I read. The sim outcome does not seem out of line.
http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... highlight=
This is one Marciano pined for.....I think he was dissapointed when the Swede didn't win the rematch with Floyd. He wanted the fight with Ingo but not with Floyd...from what I read. The sim outcome does not seem out of line.
http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... highlight=
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
KO in the 6th round, Marciano winner. Back and forth they went, Marciano was hurt and behind, then comes back to rally against his much younger opponent. While I don't agree with it being in six rounds, I do see Marciano winning this fight (I said it would have been 10 rounds).
And I would have honestly loved to have seen that, had that bout actually taken place. I know when Rocky was champion there was talks of him having a 2 round exhibition with Floyd Patterson on 'Tuesday Night Fights' but there was no takers, as Floyd wasn't even ranked in the top 10.
I think the fight would have happened (Ingo-Marciano) had there been the money, considering a Ingo-Marciano match with no title in the picture didn't look as lucrative. From what I heard Marciano trained some, then Ingo lost, and Marciano quit training. It would have been the like the 8th or so time in HW history that a former champion would try to regain the HW title (Patterson discluded).
Thanks BoxBuzz for all your help and contributions in this
Marciano retires 'hypothetically' at 55-0 with 49 kayos to his record.
Now the real question is: Do you all believe Marciano could have made it that far, going up against the men I have listed for him to fight? And would he have ranked higher/lower in your minds had he fought these men and beaten them?
And I would have honestly loved to have seen that, had that bout actually taken place. I know when Rocky was champion there was talks of him having a 2 round exhibition with Floyd Patterson on 'Tuesday Night Fights' but there was no takers, as Floyd wasn't even ranked in the top 10.
I think the fight would have happened (Ingo-Marciano) had there been the money, considering a Ingo-Marciano match with no title in the picture didn't look as lucrative. From what I heard Marciano trained some, then Ingo lost, and Marciano quit training. It would have been the like the 8th or so time in HW history that a former champion would try to regain the HW title (Patterson discluded).
Thanks BoxBuzz for all your help and contributions in this
Marciano retires 'hypothetically' at 55-0 with 49 kayos to his record.
Now the real question is: Do you all believe Marciano could have made it that far, going up against the men I have listed for him to fight? And would he have ranked higher/lower in your minds had he fought these men and beaten them?
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
Obviously you do hate Ali. You have started at least 6 anti-Ali threads. You belittle him constantly. You are obviously bitter that his fights are on a lot and that people talk about him a lot.HomicideHenry wrote:I already put down Mildenberger. And he remained vertical for the longest time, considering he was more or less just a European based fighter.In this thread, you say that Ali had trouble with left handers. I replied 'like who?" You don't even respond because there is no one.
A. Mildenberger is just one guy. You indicated before that Ali had trouble with more than one "lefthander".
B. Just because Mildenberger "remained vertical for the longest time" doesn't mean Ali had "trouble" with him. Mildenberger was knocked down in the 8th and 10th rounds. Ali was control for almost the whole fight.
C. Mildenberger shouldn't be just dimissed as a "European based fighter." He beat Machen and had a draw with Folley. He was a top 10 contender in an era when that meant something. The guy could fight.
#1- As far as Foreman is concerned it is usually a gimme that a champion who lost his title usually gets an automatic return against the man who defeated him. Foreman didn't get that, while Lewis did against Rahman, Fitzsimmons did against Jefferies, etc. That's the only point I was trying to make.
No, it's not a "gimmie" that a champion who loses his title gets an automatic return against the man who defeated him.
Your example of Fitzsimmons doesn't hold water. Fitz had to wait 3 years and win 5 fights before getting a shot against Jeffries again.
Corbett,Hart,Burns,Johnson,Willard,Schmeling,Sharkey,Carnera,Baer,
Braddock, and Frazier didn't get return title shots against the guys who beat them.
Yet, when Foreman doesn't get one against Ali you called it "inexusable".
#2- I do think it is somewhat special treatment that Ali gets a fight with #2 ranked Jerry Quarry after 3yrs inactivity. I also feel the same way with Sugar Ray Leonard getting a shot at Marvin Hagler after being gone a long time as well. I know there is a vast difference between getting a fight with a top ranked man and a champion, but none the less.
How stupid. Who gave Ali this special treatment?". A guy is willing to fight the #2 contender and you slam him for it? Are you more impressed with guys who fights tomato cans?
#3- The only reason why I brought up Corbett (outside of Nat's opinion) was that many articles from the time declared that Corbett was all but unreachable, like trying to catch a 'dancing moonbeam', and because the HW classes are so much different---I proposed that because Corbett was somewhere around MW-SMW (amateur and early pro career) and not much bigger than a modern LHW that Corbett could very well have had the speed to match Ali.
Corbett wasn't anywhere near a middleweight or supermiddleweight when during his prime. His lowest recordered weight was 178 against Sullivan. You were trying to use Fleischer's opinion in the previous thread which is very dubious. He was 5 years old when Corbett fought Sullivan and Corbett fought 60 years before Ali.
#4- Well, Ali did prove he was the fastest now didn't he? But outside of that, what else did we learn about him? He was so damn fast we could never tell how he would have been in a real knock down drag out fight. It never happened, so therefore you can't say that he was 'unbeatable' or the greatest, because he was yet to be really tested bone to bone and balls to the walls---when he got slower in the 1970's, he proved he could.
What else did Ali prove? He beat Liston for the title, made 9 successful title defenses. His only loss at the time was the great fight with Frazier.
He had proved in the 1960's that he had a great jab, threw great combinations, and had phenomenal relexes. Any knowledgable,objective obsever whould say that Ali was a great fighter in 1972 when Fleischer died.If Ali would have had a "drag out fight" in the 1960's you would have ripped him for struggling with that guy.
#5- Ali probably would have lost to Frazier by knockout in the Thrilla in Manila. I onl ysaid it not because he collapsed on his stool, but because Ali kept going on and on how he felt he was dying and that Frazier just quit before he did. And Ali collapsed on the floor. Both men were spent, and who knows what one more round would have done. AND as far as Frazier having 'eye sight' problems and not seeing Ali throw punches, you must not know jack shit on Frazier considering the man had 20x100 vision in BOTH of his eyes to start off with. Frazier would have kept on coming, to his own admission he was fighting by 'sensing shadows' for alot of the fight.
Absolutely ridiculaus. Ali would have kept going and wouldn't have been knocked out. Yes, he did sit down on the floor after the fight? So what? When a marathoner finishes a marathon, he often collapses. That doesn't mean he couldn't have run more.
Watch the fight. Look at the 14th round. Ali certainly could have gone on. I don't know "jack shit" about "Frazier"? It wouldn't have mattered if Frazier had 20/20vision before the fight. His face was swollen up badly around his eyes. That is why it was stopped. He could no longer see the punches coming. His trainer said that after the fight. Frazier himself said that he could no longer see the punches.
Watch the 13 and 14th rounds. Ali was taking potshots at him. Frazier was hardly answering back. He could no longer defend himself very well. It's doubtful that he would have made it though the 15th round, much less mount an offense and stop Ali.
#6- I won't even go into the Marciano-Ali 'superfight' considering your among one of the biggest Marciano bashers here on this site, so no amount of talk is going to ever change your mind.
Well, I'm glad that you aren't going to talk about the Ali-Marciano film again. It was a fight, it wasn't an exhibition, it wasn't even sparring. It was a film. (btw, there are alternate endings with Ali winning. Why don't you mention that?)
I'm not a Marciano basher. Can you find one anti-Marciano thread that I have started about him? (You have started at least 6 anti-Ali threads).
What is the worst thing that I have said about Marciano?
I look at his positive and negatives and try to rate him like I would rate anyone else.
Just because I don't seriously think that a Marciano in his mid-forties (who hadn't fought in 13 years) couldn't and didn't compete with Ali in his mid-20's doesn't indicate that I'm a Marciano basher. It indicates that I'm sane.
#7- And I already admitted my fault with the Stevenson thread, I wrote down the 1960's rather than the 1970's which is when the 'fight' or series of fights was to happen...I believe around 1978-1979? Anyways, it was a typographical error. Seems like you really like to find the faults in everybody.
Everyone makes mistakes. (including myself of course). Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned this considering the rest of your laundry list of errors.
#8- All I said was that Nat Fleischer can't be written off as a total idiot because he never got to see all of Ali's great feats. All Fleischer would have been able to see is his first championship reign, him being banned for refusing induction which made him appear anti-American, then come back and have a hard time with Quarry and Bonavena and then lose to Frazier. Yes I do believe I said Fleischer probably saw Ali get his jaw jacked by Norton, but to tell the truth I don't know the exact date for all of Ali's fights and Fleischer's death...only guys living in their mom's basements with no gf's know all this info. So my apologies.
That's nice. You don't do research or use common sense so you feel the need to mock someone else that does. No, I don't live with my mom. However, I do research and use common sense.
#9- As far as Cooper is concerned...it made Ali look bad. simple as that. then throw in him being dropped by Sonny Banks, getting hurt with body shots by Charlie Powell---it showed that Ali's chin wasn't impregnable. Blame it that he was being cocky and arrogant, but it always seems there is a 'well Ali was too young' or 'well Ali was too cocky' or 'Ali was over the hill'...there is always an excuse to forgive him of his faults. And I'm with the crowd in London from back then "THESE GLOVES (HENRY's) DID NOT SPLIT!"
Ah, the Cooper fight, which you constantly bring up. Why don't you start mentioning that Ali was up at the count of 3? That Ali would have had a full minute even with out the extra time? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that ali would have won this fight anyway.
Banks? It why don't you mention that it was just his 11th pro fight? That he had been a pro for less than 2 years? That it was a flashknockdown and that he wasn't hurt? that he got up immediately?
He was in no serious trouble in the Powell fight. I've seen it. It's on film. You say this as some sort of proof that Ali couldn't take body shots. Ali took body shots his whole career.
But all things aside...I say this again....I do not hate Ali, I do rate him up inside the top three HW's of all time...but I do not believe he was the all-around greatest fighter to ever lace up the gloves either, like so many believe that he is. Their perceptions are warped from nearly 30yrs of 'nastalgic' memories and constant play after play of his fights and interviews with people hyping him up.
The power of suggestion is a mighty thing indeed.
Did you ever stop to think that there was a reason for this? He was a phenomenal fighter who had a lot of great fights.
If you don't think he was the best of all time, fine. Just stop ripping on him constantly. Use some logic and do some research the next time that you do.
Last edited by Ambling Alp on 01 Jun 2007, 11:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Marciano Frazier
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 326
- Joined: 29 Jul 2003, 13:13
Marciano had some of that old-fashioned patriotism in him. He didn't like seeing a European claim the world title, and also purportedly thought Johansson was too brash and arrogant as champion, unlike Patterson, who he respected and viewed as a graceful, classy champion. After seeing Johansson in action, Marciano was convinced he could beat him and motivated by the aforementioned factors to come out of retirement and fight him for the championship, and so he considered the comeback effort. Supposedly, he went into training for about a month, decided he didn't "have it" anymore, and abandoned the idea.BoxBuzz wrote:Marciano-Ingo......
This is one Marciano pined for.....I think he was dissapointed when the Swede didn't win the rematch with Floyd. He wanted the fight with Ingo but not with Floyd...from what I read.
Meh, that's about how I'd imagine it. Johansson would probably have a respectable chance at beating a 36-year-old Marciano in the late '50s, but Marciano would still ultimately have the prevailing durability, power, and intangibles.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Alp...though my 'broken down' thread has been bashed I would like to make some points on it.
#1- Ali had an outstanding amateur career, 100 wins with only 5 losses is no short of remarkable, combined with the fact he held so many amateir titles as well as capping it off with a Gold Medal---yes I mentioned that he had trouble with a southpaw in the final, but then again, I cant solely blame it because the man was a southpaw, because that particular fighter was highly experienced and was an outstanding amateur champion world reknowned.
#2- In only his 3rd-6th fights as a professional he defeats men like Lamar Clark (45 consecutive kayos, once kayoed six men in a row). That is nothing short of phenomneal in and of it's self. That shows just how great a fighter even the young and green Ali was.
#3- Yes I mentioned that Moore was old, but hell when was he never? Moore was still highly ranked even though he was 48 years old, being removed from his LHW crown just two-three years before and had just pulled off a few impressive victories at HW. Just because Moore retired a fight later doesn't mean it takes away from what Ali did, he certainly beat a top 20-15 HW with relative ease.
#4- Yes I brought up Cooper, only because out of his early fights it is one of the very very few (Jones included) that made Ali look any at all vulnerable. Yes he was being cocky, yes he got up real quick. Yes its true the time in between rounds has been exaggerated throughout the years, but I still hold firm that even a few moments is tremendous for an athlete. But yes, even at 18-0, Ali easily handled Cooper, knock down or not.
#5- Call it a disgrace that I disregarded the second Liston fight, but I think there are so many intangibles involved in the bout that it is genuinely hard to say whether Liston could or could not have went on. Would he have won? Probably not, but I am sure he was taking Ali more seriously this time around than in the first fight, but unfortunately the fight ended up as it did. Not to make excuses for Sonny, but let's just call this one of those 'what if's'.
#6- Yes there are times I do not mention how 'great' a certain opponent is, but certainly people should know Patterson was better than let's say Brian London, and that Folley was better than Cooper. That's the only reason why I didn't play up the significance of some of those bouts.
#7- People can argue about the Williams fight. And I agree on some things with you all. Despite missing a kidney and having a damaged nerve in his leg, Williams was still putting up wins and was still considered a dangerous opponent for any man. But medical history certainly cannot be ignored either.
#8- Alot of people can disagree that Norton wasn't 'robbed' by Ali in his bouts, but the third bout was very very close and the first is surely Norton's, while the second was also close, though admittedly not as close as the last fight. In my opinion, I think Norton won 2 out of 3.
#9- Same as with number six, I did not play up some of the opponents because certainly everybody on this forum knows how good Joe Bugner was, how good Shavers was, how good Patterson was, compared to some other opponents such as Wepner, Mac Foster, Lewis, etc. Maybe I added too much info as to who was 'bad' and all, but I placed that info there to show people that Ali was certainly in decline after 1975.
#10- Why did I put the 'superfight' with Rocky in there when it wasn't even a real fight? Well why didn't you care when I posted that Ali was in the plays "Buck White" and "The Great White Hope" and made the first rap record and starred in movies? All it was was to show that Ali was busy during his exile, that he did fight exhibitions and made a good living out of himself.
#11- Why did I put down how other boxers ranked him and how historians ranked him? varying perspectives. just like on this forum. why not? is it so bad if LaMotta ranks Ali at number three when Hagler ranks him at number one? i dont think so, it just shows that despite his ranking, most agree that Ali was near or around the top three HW's of all time.
If I came off as hating him in that thread, certainly wasn't my intention, and I do apologise. He certainly was one of the greatest, if not the greatest.
#1- Ali had an outstanding amateur career, 100 wins with only 5 losses is no short of remarkable, combined with the fact he held so many amateir titles as well as capping it off with a Gold Medal---yes I mentioned that he had trouble with a southpaw in the final, but then again, I cant solely blame it because the man was a southpaw, because that particular fighter was highly experienced and was an outstanding amateur champion world reknowned.
#2- In only his 3rd-6th fights as a professional he defeats men like Lamar Clark (45 consecutive kayos, once kayoed six men in a row). That is nothing short of phenomneal in and of it's self. That shows just how great a fighter even the young and green Ali was.
#3- Yes I mentioned that Moore was old, but hell when was he never? Moore was still highly ranked even though he was 48 years old, being removed from his LHW crown just two-three years before and had just pulled off a few impressive victories at HW. Just because Moore retired a fight later doesn't mean it takes away from what Ali did, he certainly beat a top 20-15 HW with relative ease.
#4- Yes I brought up Cooper, only because out of his early fights it is one of the very very few (Jones included) that made Ali look any at all vulnerable. Yes he was being cocky, yes he got up real quick. Yes its true the time in between rounds has been exaggerated throughout the years, but I still hold firm that even a few moments is tremendous for an athlete. But yes, even at 18-0, Ali easily handled Cooper, knock down or not.
#5- Call it a disgrace that I disregarded the second Liston fight, but I think there are so many intangibles involved in the bout that it is genuinely hard to say whether Liston could or could not have went on. Would he have won? Probably not, but I am sure he was taking Ali more seriously this time around than in the first fight, but unfortunately the fight ended up as it did. Not to make excuses for Sonny, but let's just call this one of those 'what if's'.
#6- Yes there are times I do not mention how 'great' a certain opponent is, but certainly people should know Patterson was better than let's say Brian London, and that Folley was better than Cooper. That's the only reason why I didn't play up the significance of some of those bouts.
#7- People can argue about the Williams fight. And I agree on some things with you all. Despite missing a kidney and having a damaged nerve in his leg, Williams was still putting up wins and was still considered a dangerous opponent for any man. But medical history certainly cannot be ignored either.
#8- Alot of people can disagree that Norton wasn't 'robbed' by Ali in his bouts, but the third bout was very very close and the first is surely Norton's, while the second was also close, though admittedly not as close as the last fight. In my opinion, I think Norton won 2 out of 3.
#9- Same as with number six, I did not play up some of the opponents because certainly everybody on this forum knows how good Joe Bugner was, how good Shavers was, how good Patterson was, compared to some other opponents such as Wepner, Mac Foster, Lewis, etc. Maybe I added too much info as to who was 'bad' and all, but I placed that info there to show people that Ali was certainly in decline after 1975.
#10- Why did I put the 'superfight' with Rocky in there when it wasn't even a real fight? Well why didn't you care when I posted that Ali was in the plays "Buck White" and "The Great White Hope" and made the first rap record and starred in movies? All it was was to show that Ali was busy during his exile, that he did fight exhibitions and made a good living out of himself.
#11- Why did I put down how other boxers ranked him and how historians ranked him? varying perspectives. just like on this forum. why not? is it so bad if LaMotta ranks Ali at number three when Hagler ranks him at number one? i dont think so, it just shows that despite his ranking, most agree that Ali was near or around the top three HW's of all time.
If I came off as hating him in that thread, certainly wasn't my intention, and I do apologise. He certainly was one of the greatest, if not the greatest.