Jimmy Young: Denied The Title, Where Should He Rank?

[HomicideHenry]

Jimmy Young, for those who haven't heard of him or seen much or any of his fights, can be comparable to the modern day Chris Byrd or maybe even the late Tommy Farr, or simply any of the ATG 'feather punchers' in HW history. From 1969-1988 Young gave alot of fighters hell, with his elusiveness and quick hand speed.

Greatest wins:

Earnie Shavers
Ron Lyle (2x's)
Jose Roman
George Foreman- 1977 RING magazine Fight of The Year

After the Foreman bout Young seemed to have lost something. He lost the little bit of extra. As 1977 went to 1988, Young's record through that time was 13 wins, 13 losses and 1 No Contest. His overall career record was 34-19-2 (11).

But what Young is probably remembered for (with exception of the Foreman fight and being brutalised by Gerry Cooney when he was passed his best) was a highly controversial loss to reigning WBC/WBA champion Muhammad Ali. The scores were 70-68, 72-65, 71-64. Highly odd considering most observers at home or in the audience truly believed that Young won the fight...it was possibly the ONLY time in Ali's career (in the 1970's anyways) that he was booed.

Now the question I have is, where would you personally rank Young, had he won the title and then defended it against Foreman and Lyle and then lost it to Ken Norton? [considering that is how Young's record goes, losing to Ali, then beating Foreman and Lyle and losing to Norton].

It also doesn't surprise me that Young was never given a second shot at Ali, despite it being so controversial. Had there been a rematch, Ali very well could not have got into shape enough [at that stage in his career] to go chase after a much younger man as elusive as Young was. A rematch could have meant Young would have beaten Ali.

So....a 'loss' (wink wink nudge nudge poke poke) against Ali, a win over Foreman, Lyle and Shavers...and a legit loss to Norton. Not too damn bad for fighting in the greatest era of HW's considering all but Frazier were either beaten or battled with.

[The Great John L]

So....a 'loss' (wink wink nudge nudge poke poke) against Ali, a win over Foreman, Lyle and Shavers...and a legit loss to Norton.

The Norton fight was VERY close and many (including myself) felt that Young could just have easily been given the decision as Norton.

[Flump]

Jimmy Young, for those who haven't heard of him or seen much or any of his fights, can be comparable to the modern day Chris Byrd or maybe even the late Tommy Farr, or simply any of the ATG 'feather punchers' in HW history. From 1969-1988 Young gave alot of fighters hell, with his elusiveness and quick hand speed.

Greatest wins:

Earnie Shavers
Ron Lyle (2x's)
Jose Roman
George Foreman- 1977 RING magazine Fight of The Year

After the Foreman bout Young seemed to have lost something. He lost the little bit of extra. As 1977 went to 1988, Young's record through that time was 13 wins, 13 losses and 1 No Contest. His overall career record was 34-19-2 (11).

But what Young is probably remembered for (with exception of the Foreman fight and being brutalised by Gerry Cooney when he was passed his best) was a highly controversial loss to reigning WBC/WBA champion Muhammad Ali. The scores were 70-68, 72-65, 71-64. Highly odd considering most observers at home or in the audience truly believed that Young won the fight...it was possibly the ONLY time in Ali's career (in the 1970's anyways) that he was booed.

Now the question I have is, where would you personally rank Young, had he won the title and then defended it against Foreman and Lyle and then lost it to Ken Norton? [considering that is how Young's record goes, losing to Ali, then beating Foreman and Lyle and losing to Norton].

It also doesn't surprise me that Young was never given a second shot at Ali, despite it being so controversial. Had there been a rematch, Ali very well could not have got into shape enough [at that stage in his career] to go chase after a much younger man as elusive as Young was. A rematch could have meant Young would have beaten Ali.

So....a 'loss' (wink wink nudge nudge poke poke) against Ali, a win over Foreman, Lyle and Shavers...and a legit loss to Norton. Not too damn bad for fighting in the greatest era of HW's considering all but Frazier were either beaten or battled with.

Personally I think he lost the Ali fight but won the Norton fight. He could have won the Ali fight if he'd have stood his ground more and ducked his head outside the ropes less but he was too passive.

To get back to the question had he won the Ali fight he would probably be ranked in the 20-30 section on an ATG champions list, losing twice to Ossie Ocasio and the early career defeats in the harsh world of ranking heavyweight champions would have counted against him.

He was actually giving Cooney a very good argument until he sustained a bad cut, would have been intersting if that fight had gone into the later rounds.

[Ezzard]

I have Jimmy Young down as a top 30 All-time HW.

[pundit]

I have Jimmy Young down as a top 30 All-time HW.

Yep, that's roughly where I have him too.

[The Great John L]

I currently have him at 26th, and anywhere 20-40 seems reasonable.

[JCS]

Closer to #40 seems more right than #20.

[Cap]

Closer to #40 seems more right than #20.

Have to agree there. If not even lower. I was never impressed with Young.

Cap

[I Feel Fine]

I haven't seen the Norton fight but I've heard many say that Young could have gotten the decision. Ali was the heaviest of his career to that point at 235, and was declining, but I thought Young won that fight also (still, a younger Ali beats him). He was a great fighter, one of the best ever to have not won a title. I guess top 30 all time at Heavyweight could be fair... he did beat Foreman!

[KOJOE90]

The Norton - Young fight was very close and could have gone either way. I think that was the fight that broke Youngs spirit as far as Boxing was concerned, he never seemed to win a close fight (Ali, Norton, Shavers II).

There is of course the story that the Norton - Young fight was fixed and that Young 'wore the cuffs' that night to help set up another Ali - Norton megafight, a fight that had much more financial appeal that a Ali - Young rematch. The story also goes that Young was told that there was no money in him being Champion but if he played ball he would get plenty of work and paydays in the future. If Jimmy did have the cuffs on that night he did a very, very poor job as he almost won the fight.

According to Jimmy Young he first tried cocaine whilst watching the Ali - Spinks fight on TV. It went downhill fast from there.

Boxing politics put the knife in Jimmy Youngs back, drink and drugs pushed the knife in further and gutted him, a great shame as in my opinion he was maybe the most skilled Heavyweight of the last 50 years or so, to never win the Heavyweight Title and by all accounts was a real sweet, gentle man outside of the ring.

[Marciano Frazier]

I think I had him around #38 or 39 last time I compiled a list(see the "Top 100 heavyweights of all time" thread), but on closer inspection, I am thinking of pushing him up a few spaces.

[granberry]

Ali had a broken eardrum after his fight with Young.

The doctor who examined Foreman in the hospital after his fight with Young said Foreman had a concussion.

I'd hate to see what would have happened to either of them if Young had been able to "punch."

LOL.

[Chuck1052]

At his best, Jimmy Young was a heavyweight who had
the ring awareness and skill to compete with the best
heavyweights with quite a bit of success. But he also
was a feather-fisted puncher who was often too defensive
and had a low workrate, making him a very dull fighter
at times. Moreover, he was a top fighter for a relatively
short time, fading rapidly at a time when he seemed
to neglect his conditioning. I would say that ranking
him at no. 40 on the all-time heavyweight list is
a fair assessment.

- Chuck Johnston

[granberry]

Jimmy Young was a . . . feather-fisted puncher

- Chuck Johnston

Ali had a broken eardrum after his fight with Young.

The doctor who examined Foreman in the hospital after his fight with Young said Foreman had a concussion.

I'd hate to see what would have happened to either of them if Young had been able to "punch."

LOL.

[BoxBuzz]

The real problem with Young is that he couldn't even manage a decision over a lightly regarded novice like Ali. Who can take Jimmy Young seriously? Sure he was a heavy hitter having broken Ali's eardrum and imposing a concussion on Foreman but he only managed to beat one of them.

Like granberry infers...the big hitters like Young and Shavers never seemed to have the good luck go their way. Of course the great boxers like Ernie and Jimmy never had the good luck go there way either. Aint that a kick in the head? Or is it granberry who's been kicked in the head?

[granberry]

The real problem with Young is that he couldn't even manage a decision over a lightly regarded novice like Ali. Who can take Jimmy Young seriously? Sure he was a heavy hitter having broken Ali's eardrum and imposing a concussion on Foreman but he only managed to beat one of them.

Like granberry infers...the big hitters like Young and Shavers never seemed to have the good luck go their way. Of course the great boxers like Ernie and Jimmy never had the good luck go there way either. Aint that a kick in the head? Or is it granberry who's been kicked in the head?

Buzz,

is your usual attack dog Collins off today?

Poor buzz has to do his own attacking today.

Clueless buzz---who has less instincts for the subject of boxing than the average twelve year old girl---

adds more of his useless crap to boxrec.

Tell us about Joe Frazier's singing, buzz.

That is as close as you will ever get to "boxing."

[BoxBuzz]

I rattle the cage....you sing us all a song........people throw money.......A man's gotta make his livin somehow....some of us in a more humble fashion than others.....

But I know some day my day will come, and they will certainly put a statue up in the park in my honor....just you wait.

[Chuck1052]

Young scored only eleven stoppages in fifty-six professional
bouts. Moreover, I have seen tapes of Young in action and
noticed that he wasn't much of a puncher.

- Chuck Johnston

[BoxBuzz]

Young scored only eleven stoppages in fifty-six professional
bouts. Moreover, I have seen tapes of Young in action and
noticed that he wasn't much of a puncher.

- Chuck Johnston

I'm a believer, but try tellin that to my sidekick and he'll fling poo on ya'.

[granberry]

Young scored only eleven stoppages in fifty-six professional
bouts. Moreover, I have seen tapes of Young in action and
noticed that he wasn't much of a puncher.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck,

WHEN WERE YOU HIT BY JIMMY YOUNG?

The first thing Ali said to Cosell after they gave him his phony decision was :

"Young hits a lot better than I was told. I have a broken eardrum. I had it broken by Norton and I have it again."

[granberry]

I rattle the cage....you sing us all a song........people throw money.......A man's gotta make his livin somehow....some of us in a more humble fashion than others.....

But I know some day my day will come, and they will certainly put a statue up in the park in my honor....just you wait.

Buzz is on drugs?

[HomicideHenry]

And I'm sure Ali would say such a thing considering the boos he got after fighting Young and getting the decision over him. I'd say my ear drum was broken too, if it would somewhat soften the blow and make people believe u had such a crappy showing becuz of an ear drum being busted.

[BoxBuzz]

OK...I'll be a mythbuster here. The power it takes to bust an eardrum is .......not much my friends. All that needs to happen is that a punch or a slap simply happen in conjunction with a slighty tight seal around the ear canal. You can pop your own granberry, (should you wish to verify my statement) with little effort...though it can be quite painful. The drum skin it self is rather delicate. A bit of compression on a sealed ear canal and a good quick punch or slap against it and Voila! This will effect your hearing....so I suggest against trying it.

So what have we learned here? ...I would say what we have learned is though Jimmy Young may have been the heavy handed puncher that granberry insinuates with his implied "insider knowledge", the eardrum damage to Ali does nothing to support this particular theory.

Class dismissed.

granberry I want you to step up to the front of the class and write 50 times on the blackboard the following sentence....

"Joe Frazier was not the best singer in the Rat Pack and Jimmy Young was no KO artist."

[KOJOE90]

I know this is all relative but power wise I think Jimmy Young was a little more than 'Feather fisted'. He was no KO machine of course but he could hit, otherwise fighters would have just steamrollered him ragardless of Youngs defencive skills.

You have to have some 'pop' in your shots to get your opponents respect or your in trouble at World level.

Young was no power puncher but he had the skills and timing to land sharp effective shots, when he chose to do so.

Another thing when looking at Jimmy Youngs career KO ratio you have to take into account the level of fighters he was fighting from the start to the end of his career. Young have few easy nights in the ring and was thrown in with the Lions from the start. Heavier handed fighters than Young would have struggled to have long KO streaks facing the beasts Jimmy did.

[BoxBuzz]

I know this is all relative but power wise I think Jimmy Young was a little more than 'Feather fisted'. He was no KO machine of course but he could hit, otherwise fighters would have just steamrollered him ragardless of Youngs defencive skills.

You have to have some 'pop' in your shots to get your opponents respect or your in trouble at World level.

Young was no power puncher but he had the skills and timing to land sharp effective shots, when he chose to do so.

Another thing when looking at Jimmy Youngs career KO ratio you have to take into account the level of fighters he was fighting from the start to the end of his career. Young have few easy nights in the ring and was thrown in with the Lions from the start. Heavier handed fighters than Young would have struggled to have long KO streaks facing the beasts Jimmy did.

Agreed, The same thing can be said about many true skilled, quick and intelligent boxers. For that matter not many of us could stand up to any top 100 HW's best shots. Young, like Ali did not often operate from full power positioning. Defense was strong, picking shots, counterpunching, footwork that inhibits your opponents strengths were part of what defined Young. His plan generally was to outpoint you and try to stay in the fight sustaining less incoming damage when and if possible. It's not a recipe for big KO streaks, especially of the one punch variety. Cumulitive damage with intelligent follow up would be more the norm for these fighters.

It's not difficult to understand the specific point that granberry is making about Young not being feather fisted, which is a term fans sometimes foolishly use to describe smart fighters who don't take quite the risk that their more aggresive counterparts are willing to take. And those that may not rank a full 10 on the richter scale with a single shot.

The only reason we see this defense of Young in this case from this particular contributor is that this tact can be used to make his chronic general case of Ali's overall incompetence and bumblings and happenstance in creating what would to many of us appear to be quite a stellar career.

I don't want to be hit by a Jimmy Young Left or Right in order to have to report to everyone here that being "feather fisted" is not an accurate descriptor of Jimmy's power.

Thanks KOJOE.....you inspired me to offer something to this thread that was not jaded/sarcastic/ or belligerant. I'll try to stay on that track more often. If my trained little friend should start flinging feces again I'll try to curb my enthusiasm for the creative retorts.