The Fastest Heavyweight Champ Ever?

Tyson KTFO 3 Times · Post by **Tyson KTFO 3 Times** » 22 Oct 2003, 14:16

Who In terms of handspeed is the Fastest Champion of all time?

Or who can think of normal heavyweight who where fast, but did not get the crown? Jimmy young for example.

Tyson KTFO 3 Times · Post by **Tyson KTFO 3 Times** » 22 Oct 2003, 14:43

terap wrote:Benny Kid Paret had the fastest hands I have ever seen.

I remember once during one of his fights with Emile Griffith,

the good ring commentator Don Dunphy--with ALL HIS YEARS of EXPERIENCE----commented:

"Paret's hands are lightning fast."

Quite a compliment, coming from Don Dunphy.

Paret had more raw equipment than any fighter I have seen---not that he always used it to best advantage.

I have not a great knowledge about this man.

Please tell me more terap about Kid Paret

Tyson KTFO 3 Times · Post by **Tyson KTFO 3 Times** » 22 Oct 2003, 14:49

terap wrote:Floyd Patterson had amazingly fast hands when he was at his best (Moore, 2nd Hurricane Jackson fightt), especially as a big middleweight and lightheavyweight.

And his punches had a KICK in them--as fast as they were.

Agreed.

Patterson gets my vote.

Unbelievably fast.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 23 Oct 2003, 01:48

Yeah, and EVERY ONE OF THOSE GUYS WAS FASTER THAN ALI, RIGHT?

Fastest heavyweight champion ever...

It's a freakin' no-brainer...

Don't expect to hear it from Terap...he's not very objective on such matters...the revisionist historian that he is....

Mr Pickalini · Post by **Mr Pickalini** » 23 Oct 2003, 04:47

Mike Tyson also had fast hands when he was young. I've seen video of Mike throwing combos on a heavy bag (when Cus D'mato was still slive), it took him about two seconds to land a six punch combo. Hard to believe anyone had faster hands than him.

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 23 Oct 2003, 10:16

For me its a tie between Primo Carnera and Jess Willard

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 23 Oct 2003, 10:55

terap wrote:Ali could not handle fighters who had very fast hands.

That is DOUG JONES---and JIMMY YOUNG.

Look at the tape of Ali fighting either one.

Their hands (left jab---right hand---) are MUCH faster than Ali's.

Watch Jones throw a left jab--then Ali.
Jones is twice as fast.

Jimmy Young is three times as fast as Ali.

Terap...NOW I KNOW WHO YOU ARE...you're the guy in the dark glasses with the white cane selling pencils along the sidewalk...How did you lose your eyesight? Accident or birth defect? Since you're blind, I'd be happy to describe to you what REALLY happened on some of your tapes that you can't see...

By the way, you sure seem to spend alot of money of tapes of guys you hate! Pity you can't actually see them....

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 23 Oct 2003, 10:57

Johnson saw it coming, but took a dive.

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 23 Oct 2003, 13:38

Terap,

I will stoop to your level and tell you to get the fu** out of this forum.

What you know about boxing can be written on the back of a postage stamp.

You have assumed that I am against all white fighters.

This is simply not true.

If you look at my posts you will see that some of my favourite fighters are white.

Hell, I'm an ex-boxer and white myself.

As for me being a retard, I have an IQ of 148, so choose your words carefully, son.

Incidentally, talking of technique, have you ever boxed?

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 23 Oct 2003, 13:40

I grew up during Ali's peak, The first boxing match I ever saw was Clay-Powell in Pittsburgh January, 1963

I repeat no "media mantra"...

I tell it as I saw it...

I was in Landover, Md.--- 4/30/76.... I can be seen in your tape...HAD I KNOWN YOU'D BE WATCHING 27 YEARS LATER, I WOULD HAVE FLIPPED YOU THE FINGER SO YOU COULD SPOT ME...

In 1966-67 Muhammad Ali would have hung in there with anyone...

Why not pick out some of the 1966-67 fights to do your continued Ali bashing...why always pick the Jones fight 3 years earlier...why always pick fights from 10 years after his peak...maybe you can't find anything you can pick on in the '66-'67 fights.....

Naw, a guy like you can always distort 'facts' to create a flawed 'opinion'.

"media mantras, fixed fights, slower than eveybody else"...just keep coming up with all those excuses and alibis to distort the truth and create your own brand of flawed logic...

YOU KNOW LESS ABOUT BOXING THAN YOU LET ON...

Tyson KTFO 3 Times · Post by **Tyson KTFO 3 Times** » 23 Oct 2003, 15:40

terap wrote:ALI'S FIGHTS IN 1966-67

GEORGE CHUVALO---
Ali struggled to a decision over Chuvalo
and showed that he had no punching power
(Chuvalo was stopped in 4 rounds by Frazier and 3 rounds by Foreman)
Ali's magic Liston punch was absent.

HENRY COOPER
The FIRST thing Ali did when he came out of his corner against Cooper was to grab Cooper by the head with both hands and try to twist his head off. What a BOXER ! What a CLEAN fighter !
Ali showed no punching power in this fight--against the moderately weak-chinned Cooper.
Ali did a weird bending low routine in this fight that was anything but competent defensively.
Ali won the fight on cuts.
Ali's magic Liston punch was absent.

BRIAN LONDON
London was a total mediocrity.
Ali beat him.
Hooray.

KARL MILDENBERGER
Southpaw Mildenberger, a mediocre heavyweight AT BEST----
beat up Ali, who showed real distress at the body shots Mildenberger hit him with.
Ali did not look like "the greatest of all time " in his struggle with Mildenburger.

CLEVELAND WILLIAMS
Cleveland Williams had been shot in the stomach at point black range by a Texas policeman with a magnum gun A YEAR AND A HALF before he "fought "Ali.
Williams showed up for his "fight" with Ali MISSING ONE KIDNEY, TEN FEET of his small intestine, and with a SHRIVELED LEFT LEG for 8-9 inches above the knee from the nerve damage the bullet had done.

The media shills whose job it is to sell Ali always crow about how "great" Ali looked fighting crippled Cleveland WIlliams--

but they NEVER TELL YOU that Ali was fighting a phyical cripple.
A huge half-healed reddish scar rises up out of Williams trunks in that fight. Get the Sports Illustrated glossy colored pictures and see it.

ERNIE TERRELL
Ali couldn't do anything with Terrell--who was too big, strong, and competent for him--
Ali was under pressure in the first rounds--
so in the third round Ali got Terrell in a headlock and dragged his face against the second rope. What a CLEAN fighter and what a great champion!
From that point on Terrell had double vision. After the fight the doctor who examined Terrell said Terrell had a ROPE BURN ON HIS FACE GOING INTO HIS EYE.
Yet Ali showed ZERO punching power against his now incapitated opponent
in the TWELVE ROUNDS remaining in the fight.
I will repeat---
ALI HAD TWELVE MORE ROUNDS remaining in the fight-
and he TRIED AS HARD AS HE COULD to stop Terrell--
but he could even score a knockdown in the remaining TWELVE rounds.
The magic Sonny Liston punch was absent---to put it mildly.

ZORA FOLLEY
Folley had been knocked out in 7 rounds by Alejandro Lavorante in 1961 and in 7 rounds by Doug Jones in 1962.

but then Ali stopped an old, shot Folley in 7 rounds in 1967---
YEARS after Folley was at his best-----
And the Ali shills said this showed that their Ali was the "greatest of all time."

Strangely enough
NO ONE EVER SAID THAT LAVORANTE AND DOUG JONES WERE THE "GREATEST OF ALL TIME" for knocking out Folley in 7 rounds.

But the Ali shills tell you that Ali was "the greatest of all time" because he beat a MUCH OLDER Folley in the same number of rounds that Lavorante and Jones did.
_____________________________________________________________

GEORGE CHUVALO, HENRY COOPER, pathetic BRIAN LONDON, KARL MILDENBERGER, crippled CLEVELAND WILLIAMS, ERNIE TERRELL,
an old, shot ZORA FOLLEY.

Not exactly a list of the greatest fighters of "all time."

Great post.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 23 Oct 2003, 15:54

More lies, distortions, half-truths, as well as some TOTAL LIES...

Typical Terap post....

Can't see anything objectively....

If Ali was involved, it's trash....yeah, right...

That list of fighters you mention compares favorably to your beloved Dempsey's title defenses...at least Ali wasn't fighting 172 pounders or getting knocked completely out of the ring...

Struggled to a decision over Chuvalo? He won 13-1-1! What kind of asshole would call that 'struggled to a decision' in such a lop-sided fight?

And, Ali had no interest in stopping Terrell...holding a personal grudge because Ernie wanted to call him Cassius Clay, Ali was too busy screaming' "What's my name?" AND BUSTING UP TERRELL IN THE MOST ONE SIDED DOMINATION of the years mentioned. Ali's punches fractured the orbit bone around the eye...of course Terap "The Distorter" blames it on 'cheating'...lol...DID YOU SEE THE FIGHT, BLIND ONE???

Only Mildenberger showed any competitveness...for about 5 rounds...by the end of the 8th...he was toast like the rest of them, finally stopeed by the referee in the 12th (Notice how Ali 'let up' and didn't go after the hurt, vulnerable Mildenberger...didn't want to kill him.)

YOU DON'T REALLY WATCH WHEN YOU RUN THESE FIGHTS, DO YOU?

Maybe, you've never even seen them...

RAPID · Post by **RAPID** » 23 Oct 2003, 20:50

ALI WAS THE FASTEST. HE RAN LIKE HELL

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 23 Oct 2003, 21:25

terap wrote:Message to me from longtime Philly-Detroit boxing trainer:

Carnera's fight with Sharkey just might have been legit, but Ali's wins
over Liston definitely were not. His match with Terrell showed exectly
what he had offensively at best. It would never have been good enough
to ko Sonny.

Yeah...now THAT"S evidence that would hold up in court...
The OPINION of an anonymous 'mystery trainer'....

Like the little old lady used to say on the Wendy's commercial...

"WHERE"S THE BEEF???"

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 24 Oct 2003, 00:04

Why did Duran 'quit' in that fight, by the way...
If Leonard was just running, why not chase him down and kill him with those 'hands of stone'?

ANSWER TRUTHFULLY OR NOT AT ALL...

I grow weary of your distortions of the truth...

tolstoy · Post by **tolstoy** » 24 Oct 2003, 09:23

Terap, you are the guy who brings the subjects of Ali and Leonard up repeatedly.

The vast majority of your posts include derogatory references to Ali and Leonard even when the thread topic is entirely unrelated.

Why don't you stick to topic and stop boring everyone with your bullshit?

Anyone who disagrees with you is automatically an "Ali shill" who spreads "poisonous mantras". That does a great disservice to those honest and knowledgeable posters who use this site to contribute (and receive) boxing opinion and knowledge.

Perhaps you have missed my posts regarding the Clay/Ali-Liston fights. If you read them, you will see that I am no "Ali shill". Nor was I a big fan of Leonard so save your insults for those who know no better.

Assuming your stories of meeting Dempsey and Walcott are true, you would be a valuable addition to this site if only you would stop your incessant Ali bashing and treat other posters' with the respect they deserve.

RAPID · Post by **RAPID** » 24 Oct 2003, 21:51

terap
That's beautifull. Sacharine Ray Leonard.
First. There was only one Sugar Ray, and his last name isn't
Leonard. We all know who that is.
There is a boxing term called agressiveness. Running around
the ring acting like a clown is exactly that. Running. Points should be deducted accordingly.
Sweet Scientist. Why should Duran chase him down. If I'm putting up
money and my time to see a fight, I'm not interested in seeing some
guyrunning around the ring acting like a clown. Leonards behavior in Duran II was un professional and was more suited for the WWF. Not that anything is wrong with the WWF.
If you pay for a ticket to see Duran you got your money's worth.
Lastly. Duran's record speaks for itself, especially knockouts. Check it out.
I think the fact of the matter is to many people get distracted by nonsense
from one fighter and they fail to see the fight. That was the hole scam behind Leonard and Ali. Just my two cents. I enjoy reading your views and everyone has good points.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 25 Oct 2003, 15:12

tolstoy wrote:
Assuming your stories of meeting Dempsey and Walcott are true, you would be a valuable addition to this site if only you would stop your incessant Ali bashing and treat other posters' with the respect they deserve.

I wouldn't count on his 'stories'...he has been known to lie, exaggerate, distort and twist facts, 'spin doctor' the truth, all so he can either 'prop up' the fighter he supports...or...ridicule the fighter he hates, in the same self serving manner of the so called 'Ali shills' he despises...

Not exactly the work of an objective 'expert boxing historian'...

FreeIkemefula · Post by **FreeIkemefula** » 25 Oct 2003, 20:46

This is a tough question. Quickest overall. I would have to go with a prime Tyson actually. Ali had quicker hands maybe, but his punches lacked power often. Meaningful quickness I would give a young Mike the nod. Larry Holmes had a fast jab and it carved people up.

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 27 Oct 2003, 04:30

terap wrote:Knockout artist--

From the raw ignorance displayed in your posts I doubt you ever had a fight with your own sister.

Terap.

1. I dont have a sister.

2. I had 82 fights between 1983 and 1995.

PS: Terap, you failed to answer the question in the last paragraph of my post.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 28 Oct 2003, 19:48

This whole thread lacks credibility...the fastest heavyweight was Muhammad Ali...period. There is no real arguement to that. Ali (circa 1966-67) was the fastest. Period.

Too many people (usually Ali bashers) point to fights in the 70's to argue this. Ali had lost most of his speed by then...and was never the equal of the 60's Ali. All Ali proved in the 70's was that he could take a punch as well as any heavyweight in history. I became an Ali fan in the 60's when you could count on one hand all the times Ali was hit hard. I was still a fan in the 70's, but was always disappointed by his fighting style in the 70's...how ironic that the fastest heavyweight who rarely got hit in the 60's became became a fighter that took too many punches in the 70's...

BUT...it shouldn't take away from his greatness in the 60's, when his speed of hand & foot dominated the division. That 60's speed would have presented problems for EVERY heavyweight in history.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 28 Oct 2003, 20:05

RAPID wrote:terap
That's beautifull. Sacharine Ray Leonard.
First. There was only one Sugar Ray, and his last name isn't
Leonard. We all know who that is.
There is a boxing term called agressiveness. Running around
the ring acting like a clown is exactly that. Running. Points should be deducted accordingly.
Sweet Scientist. Why should Duran chase him down. If I'm putting up
money and my time to see a fight, I'm not interested in seeing some
guyrunning around the ring acting like a clown. Leonards behavior in Duran II was un professional and was more suited for the WWF. Not that anything is wrong with the WWF.
If you pay for a ticket to see Duran you got your money's worth.
Lastly. Duran's record speaks for itself, especially knockouts. Check it out.
I think the fact of the matter is to many people get distracted by nonsense
from one fighter and they fail to see the fight. That was the hole scam behind Leonard and Ali. Just my two cents. I enjoy reading your views and everyone has good points.

"Why should Duran chase him down"?

BECAUSE IT WAS HIS JOB...BECAUSE HE WAS THE DEFENDING CHAMPION...BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HE HAD TO DO TO WIN...BECAUSE IF HE DOESN'T, HE'S NOTHING MORE THAN A QUITTER...BECAUSE HE WASN'T HURT, JUST FRUSTRATED...BECAUSE HE WON THE FIRST FIGHT...

"Why should Duran chase him down?

This is a bizzare question. Didn't Duran WANT to win? If you're going to run down Leonard, don't do it using the second Duran fight. Duran lost. Duran quit. Duran's low point of his career. Leonard didn't quit when Duran beat up on him in the first fight.

"If you pay for a ticket to see Duran you got your money's worth"

NOT IN THIS FIGHT, PAL. YOU DON'T "GET YOUR MONEY'S WORTH" WATCHING A GUY WITH ENORMOUS TALENT QUIT IN THE MIDDLE OF A FIGHT BECAUSE THINGS WEREN'T GOING HIS WAY!!!

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 29 Oct 2003, 08:05

The reason Duran quit is that the various medications he had taken to lose a lot of weight had left him with.... have a guess.... he basically didn't want to suffer an 'accident' in the ring in front of millions of people.
Can't blame him really.
Duran has never admited openly to this as it's very embarrasing but if you read between the lines of what he has said about 'stomach cramps' you can get the picture.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 29 Oct 2003, 16:22

Yeah...But do you honestly think Duran would have quit if he had been WINNING?