2006 JO's athetes @ the US championships

Hugo · Post by **Hugo** » 09 Jun 2007, 01:08

106 Jerail Singleton ( Did ok, he's kind of wild )
Terail Singleton ( Lost a close one to Ceron )
Luis Rangel ( Good skills )
Daniel Lozano ( Maybe the future of the 106 class )

112 Jerry Guevara ( Busy boxer )
Patrick Amaro ( Strong boxer,lost a competitive bout to Qa'id )

119 Samuel DiPace ( A pressure boxer )
Roberto Marroquin ( lots of experiences )
Ronny Rios ( The best of this group )

125 Robert Rodriguez ( A good boxer )
Hylon Williams ( Maybe the future of the 125 class )

132 Gary Russell III ( Fast hands, good future )

141 Hector Vasquez ( Busy boxer )
Javier Molina ( The golden boy of the tournament )

152 Oscar Molina ( Good boxer )
Luis Ariaz ( Good boxer )

165 Dominic Wade ( Did well )

201 Joey Dawejko ( Very strong boxer )

Resume: 2006 JO's graduates did well, I see some of this kids being the future of USAB in the next couple years. ( A little more experinces in the open division and they'll be there )

emile · Post by **emile** » 09 Jun 2007, 02:03

I'm pretty amazed at the number of teens who are doing well in these past few tournaments. Is it that this is a particularly good crop, or that the 19+ guys were a poor crop? If all of these guys stay amateur into the next cycle, things could possibly be looking up. I guess we'll need to see what happens when they start getting more international experience, but the results in Morocco at the World Juniors was pretty encouraging.

Then again, if guys who fought in the 2004 World Juniors like Joe Greene and Austin Trout had stayed in the amateurs, there would be less spaces for the new crop. So maybe its just natural attrition.

the_boxer · Post by **the_boxer** » 09 Jun 2007, 02:22

what about domoqnuie dolton he just came out the jo's

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 09 Jun 2007, 02:30

emile wrote:I'm pretty amazed at the number of teens who are doing well in these past few tournaments. Is it that this is a particularly good crop, or that the 19+ guys were a poor crop? If all of these guys stay amateur into the next cycle, things could possibly be looking up. I guess we'll need to see what happens when they start getting more international experience, but the results in Morocco at the World Juniors was pretty encouraging.

Then again, if guys who fought in the 2004 World Juniors like Joe Greene and Austin Trout had stayed in the amateurs, there would be less spaces for the new crop. So maybe its just natural attrition.

You are correct. I wonder how many of the young guys will stay amateur for the next 5 years for the 2012 Olympics.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 09 Jun 2007, 10:43

There's a local pro shark already sniffing around the Molinas. I'm willing to bet that if Javier gets on the team, or doesn't, he'll probably be gone and Oscar, too. It would be a shame if they don't stick around - any and all of these kids. I'm pretty sure all the big sharks will be at the Box-offs - they usually are. It's fun to watch them circle.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 09 Jun 2007, 15:16

boxmel wrote:There's a local pro shark already sniffing around the Molinas. I'm willing to bet that if Javier gets on the team, or doesn't, he'll probably be gone and Oscar, too. It would be a shame if they don't stick around - any and all of these kids. I'm pretty sure all the big sharks will be at the Box-offs - they usually are. It's fun to watch them circle.

Is it fun or is it disgusting Mel? LOL.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 10 Jun 2007, 22:12

It's not disgusting, Dennis - they are just doing their jobs. It's just sad to see the athletes believe in the fairy tales they are told. I had the opportunity to go to the 2000 Trials as a guest of one of the sharks. It was a truly enlightening experience - business deals in the middle of the night, for instance. What I found truly sad is that most of these guys go after the athletes, not the coaches. Once they reel the kids in, they promise the coaches the world - and then dump them as soon as they can. It was enough of an enlightening experience to keep me away from the pro world for ever.

Roberts J · Post by **Roberts J** » 10 Jun 2007, 22:31

Just a comment, after my 2006 quarter final loss at the Natl GG. 3 Guys, from NJ and Penns. Offered me to go there, all expensies paid, spar with there guys etc. One of them was on the Penn. GG team. I told them 18 is too yyoung to go pro and im waiting a long time, 23-23 etc. It is sad how many fall to it, i agree

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 10 Jun 2007, 22:39

Roberts, you're one of the smart ones. Good for you!

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 12 Jun 2007, 10:46

Roberts still has a dream, which is good. Some boxers fail to make the Olympic team and quit dreaming or believing that they can do it. We will likely see many top amateurs turn pro in the next few months. Two of Minnesota's better amateurs Caleb Truax and James Taylor have turned pro. Truax has his 2nd bout and Taylor has his pro debut this Friday according to Boxrec.com!

emile · Post by **emile** » 13 Jun 2007, 09:51

I think going pro when your 18 or 19 is almost always a mistake, but I can't fault someone who is 21 or 22 from not wanting to wait through another cycle for the Olympics.

A lot of news stories are coming out about some of the older fighters and their preparations for the pros. Sounds like Edwin Rodriguez and Victor Valenzuela are making plans already, although Valenzuela was apparently approached by the Dominican Olympic team. I'd expect that we'll see guys like Dargan, Hector Ramos, Jonte Willis, etc in the coming months.

Of the younger crop, article today says Mike Faragon expects to debut in the fall. He's 20, so I'd say he would be well served to keep fighting amateur for another year or two, but with that Olympic dream so far away no, it must be hard to stay motivated.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 13 Jun 2007, 11:31

The influx of top amateur talent into the pro ranks may make the pro game more exciting in the upcoming year, but it does not help the U.S. amateur program. Yes there will be more good boxers coming out of the J.O. program, but it helps to have some experienced mature men to test them. A 22 - 25 year old boxer with 50+ bouts is physically mature and can really test a young guy. I can't fault the 22-25 year old boxers from wanting to turn professional. Sometimes even younger guys can do OK like Vernon Paris, but I think he would have been even better had he waited another year or two before turning pro.

emile · Post by **emile** » 13 Jun 2007, 12:07

I'm obviously no expert on amateur boxing or boxer development, but I have found it interesting, as I mentioned earlier, how well the younger boxers have been doing in the national competitions.

And it seems like the older US amateur fighters who don't go pro simply stop progressing at a pretty young age. Before, I would have expected that our amateurs would have better and better results as they aged, having added experience, emotional stability, and some physical development. But in looking at the records of some of the older, elite fighters there doesn't appear to be any improvement in their results after a point, and many of them even seem to be regressing.

I'm guessing that the reason that the older European and Cuban amateurs do so well is not their experience, but simply that they were always excellent amateur fighters, and just never turned pro. My anecdotal view is that if you have not developed into an elite fighter by the time you are 19 or 20, it's not likely that you ever will be one. Perhaps in the pros, experience and strength are so much more essential because of the brute physicality and sapping fight lengths. In the amateurs, I think you either have the necessary skills or you don't. I don't know, can anyone think of a fighter who developed into a top amateur in their mid-20's?

If you buy that argument, then I probably don't see much reason in staying amateur into your mid-20's unless you are a top fighter (like the Euros, Cubans, Thais, etc), just really enjoy the amateur game, or you have a style which won't translate to the pros at all. Someone like Rau'Shee Warren would probably be a better choice to stay amateur over someone like Faragon, because Warren could become a multiple gold-medal winner and that might be more lucrative than becoming a solid small-weight pro.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 13 Jun 2007, 12:22

There are several boxers over the age of 20 who have made it as elite amateur boxers (those in the top 10 rankings; usually #1-4) and mostly in the heavier weight divisions. This is just off the top of my head as I'm not home to research. However, Lawrency Clay-Bey comes to mind....

I still say that the lack of consistent international experience, plus the fact every US amateur boxer's goal is turn pro and become a world champion, is the main reason we don't do well against the Cubans and the Eastern Europeans. We have many extremely talented athletes who don't know how to compete internationally.

Just my opinion, of course.

emile · Post by **emile** » 13 Jun 2007, 12:40

Good point about the higher weights Mel. Obviously, with no weight cap to keep you from adding strength, older fighters should be able to improve at 201+. But outside of that, the weight classes negate much of any advantage a fighter would get from physical development. Analysis of other sports has suggested that male athleticism peaks at a very young age, so the edge of experience is always fighting with a slow loss of pure talent.

I certainly agree that the US could do better internationally with more Olympic-style training and better international experience. But I think it would simply elevate all fighters and not change my theory that the identification of elite level amateurs is done by a pretty young age.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 13 Jun 2007, 12:57

I certainly agree that the US could do better internationally with more Olympic-style training and better international experience. But I think it would simply elevate all fighters and not change my theory that the identification of elite level amateurs is done by a pretty young age.

Definitely an interesting supposition, Emile. However, I've seen very talented JO boxers who couldn't, for whatever reason, make the switch to elite open boxers, and vice versa. I've also seen open division boxers become elite without any JO experience - former amateur Anthony Thompson is a good example, current 178 Lber Yathomas Riley is another.

emile · Post by **emile** » 13 Jun 2007, 13:12

Well, that's another good point and that would be a second point for me to concede - that you could have someone who came to the sport very late, yet had enough physical talent to develop into a top fighter at a later age. That would be my second exception, since I believe amateur boxing is extremely based on natural skill, I would have to allow that someone could pick it up at a later age.

I wouldn't necessarily use JO success in my theory, since some of the boxers that young are still in the process of adult development and are therefore unpredictable as far as how they will continue to grow. I would say though that if you have been in the system and have not reached an elite level in the open competition by maybe age 20, you probably won't ever.

I'm thinking about guys like Dargan, Rosinsky, Rodriguez, Hector Ramos - guys who declined or plateaued. I wonder if the increasingly competing distractions of adulthood are a factor as well in why these older boxers stop improving.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 13 Jun 2007, 13:33

Ahh, Emile, you don't have to concede.

Let's just say that you agree with me on some points, as I do with yours.

I would say though that if you have been in the system and have not reached an elite level in the open competition by maybe age 20, you probably won't ever.

Again, I totally agree. I'm guessing, but I would say out of some 20,000+ registered amateur boxers, only 1 or 2% ever make elite status. Some are really good amateurs, i.e., Oscar DeLa Hoya, Shane Mosley (past examples), and others get in the top 10 because they were a bit better than their opponents at the ranking tournament.

locoxelbox · Post by **locoxelbox** » 13 Jun 2007, 17:49

emile wrote:I don't know, can anyone think of a fighter who developed into a top amateur in their mid-20's?

Antonio Tarver

zhdamistro · Post by **zhdamistro** » 13 Jun 2007, 19:24

didnt antonio tarver have alot of experience in the jr ranks.

emile · Post by **emile** » 13 Jun 2007, 19:25

Tarver, that's a good one.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 13 Jun 2007, 23:08

Considering USA Boxing stopped putting out athlete bios - I'm going to go way back.....Oh, DaVarryl Williamson is another recent one without JO experience....Hopefully, some of these names will be familiar ones. Elite boxers without JO experience: Terry McGroom, Larry Donald, Buster Mathis, Jr., Lance Whitaker, David Reid, Floyd Mayweather and Zab Judah(no JO National medals), Omar Sheika, Charles Shufford.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 13 Jun 2007, 23:30

boxmel wrote:Considering USA Boxing stopped putting out athlete bios - I'm going to go way back.....Oh, DaVarryl Williamson is another recent one without JO experience....Hopefully, some of these names will be familiar ones. Elite boxers without JO experience: Terry McGroom, Larry Donald, Buster Mathis, Jr., Lance Whitaker, David Reid, Floyd Mayweather and Zab Judah(no JO National medals), Omar Sheika, Charles Shufford.

Mel - if you are talking about Pretty Boy Floyd, he had a lot of JO experience. He started boxing before he was 8 years old.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 14 Jun 2007, 09:23

Mel - if you are talking about Pretty Boy Floyd, he had a lot of JO experience. He started boxing before he was 8 years old.

I said he had no JO medals........If he had a lot of JO experience, it stands to reason that he would have gone to the JO nationals when he was 15 or 16 and, given his talent, won....

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 14 Jun 2007, 12:45

boxmel wrote:
Mel - if you are talking about Pretty Boy Floyd, he had a lot of JO experience. He started boxing before he was 8 years old.
I said he had no JO medals........If he had a lot of JO experience, it stands to reason that he would have gone to the JO nationals when he was 15 or 16 and, given his talent, won....

I'm not sure what happened when he was 15. Maybe he got sick and couldn't go. I do know that when he was 16 he elected to box in the open-class instead of staying in the J.O.'s and he went on to win the 1993 National Golden Gloves in the 106# class at the ripe old age of 16. He wouldn't have been able to do that unless he had a lot of J.O. experience! As far as J.O. and Silver Gloves medals, we have photos of Lil' Floyd at the gym with those types of medals around his neck and he is 10-15 years old in the photos (they may not be National Championship Medals). Some of them even say the year, but I just don't remember off the top of my head.

I don't think a boxer necessarily needs to have won a National title as a J.O. to have gained invaluable experience. Some boxers do not develop the maturity necessary to win at the top level until they are over 16 years of age. Others do very well under 17 and never develop further and therefore do not do well in the open-class.