ScoreCards For Ali-Liston I

Tyson KTFO 3 Times · Post by **Tyson KTFO 3 Times** » 25 Sep 2003, 09:38

Does anyone know the scorecards at the time of the retirment of liston?

Any infomation would be greatly recieved.

Thanks in advance.

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 25 Sep 2003, 09:41

I don't know, but from what I've heard the fight was pretty even

Matt · Post by **Matt** » 25 Sep 2003, 13:38

Scoring was 57-57, 58-56 Clay, 58-56 Liston. So it was even on the cards.

Tyson KTFO 3 Times · Post by **Tyson KTFO 3 Times** » 29 Sep 2003, 11:23

tegenm wrote:Scoring was 57-57, 58-56 Clay, 58-56 Liston. So it was even on the cards.

Thanks very much, and to be honest i agree with terap, if you listen to most people they tell you that Ali/clay was teaching Liston a lesson in boxing.

Dave1armedTua · Post by **Dave1armedTua** » 29 Sep 2003, 14:20

He thought him a lesson in the end though, didn't he? After all, he KO'ed him with a punch he never even threw. The only other boxer who has done that, is Butterbean

Tyson KTFO 3 Times · Post by **Tyson KTFO 3 Times** » 30 Sep 2003, 12:14

Dave1armedTua wrote:He thought him a lesson in the end though, didn't he? After all, he KO'ed him with a punch he never even threw. The only other boxer who has done that, is Butterbean

Marciano Frazier · Post by **Marciano Frazier** » 30 Sep 2003, 19:24

tyson50wins44ko wrote:
tegenm wrote:Scoring was 57-57, 58-56 Clay, 58-56 Liston. So it was even on the cards.

Thanks very much, and to be honest i agree with terap, if you listen to most people they tell you that Ali/clay was teaching Liston a lesson in boxing.

Remember Liston was a heavy favorite at the time- the judges were expecting him to be winning, sort of like how two of the judges had Tyson leading against Douglas at the time of the KO, which is total crap. Tyson was a mile behind in that fight, but he was such a heavy favorite, the judges just sort of wrote down that he was winning with each round. The only round of that fight Tyson won was round 8. I thought Clay was leading around 59-55 or 58-56 at the time Liston quit.

jsc1973 · Post by **jsc1973** » 09 Oct 2003, 19:12

Actually, two of the cards had Douglas far ahead, the third one had Tyson slightly ahead. If it had gone to a decision, Buster would have won an SD12 in all likelihood. But even that raises a question as to what the third juge was watching.

Tyson KTFO 3 Times · Post by **Tyson KTFO 3 Times** » 10 Oct 2003, 04:33

jsc1973 wrote:Actually, two of the cards had Douglas far ahead, the third one had Tyson slightly ahead. If it had gone to a decision, Buster would have won an SD12 in all likelihood. But even that raises a question as to what the third juge was watching.

Then again the same has happened with Ali-Norton I and Ali-Spinks.

Roll With The Punches · Post by **Roll With The Punches** » 12 Oct 2003, 03:46

Ali ahead on the cards?? you don't win rounds by running

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 16 Oct 2003, 19:15

As far as I'm concerned, the most interesting & exciting fighters are the ones that hit, without getting hit (or at least without getting hit hard, by keeping their opponent off balance and "out of sync" if you will). Muhammad Ali (of the 1960's) CERTAINLY filled this bill: he hit the other guy, and never seemed to get hit himself. Certainly there were times he got hit in the 60's...when he was completely jerking around in the fourth round against Henry Cooper...early in his career against the late Sonny Banks...when he was temporarily blinded against Liston, but when he was serious, the opponent was in trouble (with a capital T). Don't confuse the Ali of the 70's with the Ali of the 60's...all he did in the 70's was prove he could take a punch...which makes the Ali of the 60's that much greater. It seems to have become somewhat desirable (by some posters to this forum) to put down Ali & Ali's basic style (referred to by some of you as "running"). Everyone's entitled to their own opinion! I just can't relate to this crap about putting down a guy for "running". Jerry Quarry never ran...he just stood there and took punches until there wasn't much left in his mind, ultimately dying at age 53. He was a crowd pleaser, a toe to toe slugger, the kind of guy who didn't "run"...so I guess there are some here who think that's the way to fight. "A real fighter doesn't run" kind of mentality. Can't you guys appreciate a "boxer" for goodness sake? It's not all about toe to toe slugging...there is more than just one way to fight...and you'd have to be blind to watch the 6 rounds of the first Liston fight not to see that Ali won atleast 4 of the 6 rounds. Liston won the round that Ali got "something" in his eyes...maybe the first was even...the rest were Ali's rounds...I don't care WHAT the scorecards said...We can ALL come up with numerous examples of how pathetically outrageous some of these judge's decisions can be...If you watch the 6 rounds objectively, and you think that fight was even...you must be very biased against "The Greatest". REMEMBER: you're not judging his politics, his loudmouthed ego-mania, his poetry, his guarentees of victory, or anything else but...who was ahead after 6 rounds of the fight...and that would be Ali by a wide margin 4-2-0 or 4-1-1. I don't like everything about the man...but he was a brilliant boxer, undefeated in 60's, and he never even was allowed to fight in his true "prime"...and his speed would have been the great equalizer against any of the all time greats. You can not name any fighter in history that would have beat Ali 3 times in a row! None! And that is really the way you should judge a who would beat who question...if they were really great, they would have fought at least 3 times...And Ali would have won at least once, maybe twice, maybe even all three against ANYONE...like him or not! AND...if all he did was "run" from Liston, how did Liston get those cuts on his face? Shaving between rounds? I wonder how some of you guy's favorite heavyweights would have done against LISTON? Sonny was a top notch fighter until the media decided he was a "bum" after losing to Ali. The same way Foreman became a "bum" after Ali found a way to beat him, despite being years past his prime. I will not say that Ali was the best ever...But I'll say that he would have given anybody a fight...and that nobody would have been able to beat him 3 times in a row...and there's nothing wrong with "running", especially when you're ahead on points and scoring with a lightning fast left jab!

Roll With The Punches · Post by **Roll With The Punches** » 24 Oct 2003, 12:35

is Floyd Mayweather your favourite 'fighter'?

joneva · Post by **joneva** » 24 Oct 2003, 15:55

Age at death:

Jack Dempsey - 83 (nearly 84)
Jess Willard - 86 (very nearly 87)
Jack Sharkey - 91
Max Schmeling - 98 and still going!
Jersey Joe Walcott - 80
Gene Tunney - 81
Jim Jeffries - 77 (nearly 78)

But lets add:

Primo Carnera - 60
Max Baer - 50
Tommy Burns - 73
Joe Louis - 67 (nearly 68)

(Please forgive any inaccuracies, I did the sums in my head)

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 24 Oct 2003, 21:18

Sweet Scientist wrote:As far as I'm concerned, the most interesting & exciting fighters are the ones that hit, without getting hit (or at least without getting hit hard, by keeping their opponent off balance and "out of sync" if you will). Muhammad Ali (of the 1960's) CERTAINLY filled this bill: he hit the other guy, and never seemed to get hit himself. Certainly there were times he got hit in the 60's...when he was completely jerking around in the fourth round against Henry Cooper...early in his career against the late Sonny Banks...when he was temporarily blinded against Liston, but when he was serious, the opponent was in trouble (with a capital T). Don't confuse the Ali of the 70's with the Ali of the 60's...all he did in the 70's was prove he could take a punch...which makes the Ali of the 60's that much greater. It seems to have become somewhat desirable (by some posters to this forum) to put down Ali & Ali's basic style (referred to by some of you as "running"). Everyone's entitled to their own opinion! I just can't relate to this crap about putting down a guy for "running". Jerry Quarry never ran...he just stood there and took punches until there wasn't much left in his mind, ultimately dying at age 53. He was a crowd pleaser, a toe to toe slugger, the kind of guy who didn't "run"...so I guess there are some here who think that's the way to fight. "A real fighter doesn't run" kind of mentality. Can't you guys appreciate a "boxer" for goodness sake? It's not all about toe to toe slugging...there is more than just one way to fight...and you'd have to be blind to watch the 6 rounds of the first Liston fight not to see that Ali won atleast 4 of the 6 rounds. Liston won the round that Ali got "something" in his eyes...maybe the first was even...the rest were Ali's rounds...I don't care WHAT the scorecards said...We can ALL come up with numerous examples of how pathetically outrageous some of these judge's decisions can be...If you watch the 6 rounds objectively, and you think that fight was even...you must be very biased against "The Greatest". REMEMBER: you're not judging his politics, his loudmouthed ego-mania, his poetry, his guarentees of victory, or anything else but...who was ahead after 6 rounds of the fight...and that would be Ali by a wide margin 4-2-0 or 4-1-1. I don't like everything about the man...but he was a brilliant boxer, undefeated in 60's, and he never even was allowed to fight in his true "prime"...and his speed would have been the great equalizer against any of the all time greats. You can not name any fighter in history that would have beat Ali 3 times in a row! None! And that is really the way you should judge a who would beat who question...if they were really great, they would have fought at least 3 times...And Ali would have won at least once, maybe twice, maybe even all three against ANYONE...like him or not! AND...if all he did was "run" from Liston, how did Liston get those cuts on his face? Shaving between rounds? I wonder how some of you guy's favorite heavyweights would have done against LISTON? Sonny was a top notch fighter until the media decided he was a "bum" after losing to Ali. The same way Foreman became a "bum" after Ali found a way to beat him, despite being years past his prime. I will not say that Ali was the best ever...But I'll say that he would have given anybody a fight...and that nobody would have been able to beat him 3 times in a row...and there's nothing wrong with "running", especially when you're ahead on points and scoring with a lightning fast left jab!

Larry Holmes was a much better fighter than Ali ever was. The guy had a great defense, unlike Ali, and he had power, unlike Ali. And his record isn't a compilation of bullshit wins. Yet, Holmes gets no respect, why is that? Because he didn't draft-dodge?

Using drugs in africa to prevent losing to the hardest hitting heavy does not impress me. All that did was ruin Foreman's career, and Ali didn't deserve to win, Ali is a jerkoff.

And don't say that fight was legitimate, because it wasn't.... Look at Ali's eyes, glossy from the opening bell.

Look at Foreman, tired after 4 rounds... Yet he barely got hit. Don't say his Stamina was shit, because he went full fights before, on his toes in the 10th round.

Terap is right about one thing, Ali is a mockery of the sport...

But let's not take away everything from him....

He was pretty fast on his feet, and had pretty fast hands, and had a good chin. He beat quite a few decent fighters...

But his career is shrouded with so much conspiracy... That cannot be overlooked, and I do not overlook it. I refuse to rate him in my top 5 heavyweights. It makes me want to puke when anyone has him in top 5 P4P.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 25 Oct 2003, 02:34

I agree, whole heartedly, that Larry Holmes is one of the best...
BUT, so was Ali...

Tyson KTFO 3 Times · Post by **Tyson KTFO 3 Times** » 25 Oct 2003, 10:51

Mr. Holmes is #1.

his record speaks for itself.

it was giving the like of Holyfied trouble into his 40's

He beat Ray mercer in his 40's.

The man is TRULY a legend.

RAPID · Post by **RAPID** » 25 Oct 2003, 11:26

I'm glad Sweet Sientific is not a promoter or judge.
He prefers the "ones that hit without getting hit (or at least without getting hit hard, by keeping their opponenet off balance et. .
Classic fight fan that likes and only watches the runner.
Everyone knows that styles make fights and the most boring fights are two runners. I'll take two boxers any day over a runner like ALI.
That explains your constant obsession and defense of this guy.
You totally miss the points and comments made from others and your response for the most part is rude and arrogant.
You keep referring to Ali's prime. You probably got that from a Rocky movie.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 25 Oct 2003, 13:54

RAPID wrote:I'm glad Sweet Sientific is not a promoter or judge.
He prefers the "ones that hit without getting hit (or at least without getting hit hard, by keeping their opponenet off balance et. .
Classic fight fan that likes and only watches the runner.
Everyone knows that styles make fights and the most boring fights are two runners. I'll take two boxers any day over a runner like ALI.
That explains your constant obsession and defense of this guy.
You totally miss the points and comments made from others and your response for the most part is rude and arrogant.
You keep referring to Ali's prime. You probably got that from a Rocky movie.

1.) I'm glad YOU'RE not a spelling or English teacher.

2.) a 'classic fight fan' can like whatever he wants.

3.) "the most boring fights are two runners."
I agree...my favorite match would be a classic confrontation between a boxer and a slugger.

4.)"You totally miss points and comments made from others"
Absolutely untrue...that's why I post...

5.) "rude and arrogant"?...have you read Terap's posts...NOW THAT'S "rude and arrogant"

6.) I didn't like the 'Rocky' movies...
I DID like Ali's prime (circa 1966)...

7.) If YOU did not, that's YOUR OPINION, nothing more.

ScoreCards For Ali-Liston I

ScoreCards For Ali-Liston I

Longevity of heavyweight champs.