New Scoring System being tested by AIBA

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Post by Dennis »

The IOC does this for skating, diving, gymnastics (i think), ski jumping, basically every other sport that requires subjective judging.
The IOC doesn't have anything to do with the actual scoring systems and what information they provide and how it is provided. They are determined by the sport's IF (in our case, AIBA).

Mel - here you are saying the IOC does not dictate what scoring systems the individual sports use and how they display the scores. However, in a prior post you stated:
"The bottom line is that there will always be someone, or someones, who will not like the scoring, no matter the system. I doubt seriously that AIBA could come up with a scoring system that would satisfy all parties. And, as I've stated repeatedly, AIBA answers to the IOC and does what they are told so amateur boxing stays in the Olympics."

So which is it? Does AIBA dictate to the individual sports or do they let them control their sports?
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Post by boxmel »

IOC dictates that they want a change in scoring; it's up to the IF's to determine how that is done. AIBA determined the computer scoring system and its components after the 1988 Olympics. IOC did not tell them what kind of program they wanted, just that manual scoring was no longer viable.
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Post by emile »

boxmel wrote:
The IOC does this for skating, diving, gymnastics (i think), ski jumping, basically every other sport that requires subjective judging.
The IOC doesn't have anything to do with the actual scoring systems and what information they provide and how it is provided. They are determined by the sport's IF (in our case, AIBA).
Man, you guys are tough on the technicalities :)

The IOC allows that type of scoring for other sports, and those sports' administrative bodies are willing to show what each judge is scoring - so why not boxing?

Better? :)
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Post by boxmel »

The IOC doesn't "allow" anything. They just accept whatever system each IF uses.

Regarding why amateur boxing doesn't show individual judges scores - let me speak from personal experience. As a judge, I've been yelled at and threatened by irate coaches and boxers who think they've been robbed. I do not, under any circumstances, tell any coach/boxer/friend/family who I thought won a bout, but I get blamed any way. If judges scores were known, coaches would request certain officials not work their bouts and, in many cases, abuse those judges they think are cheating. Guess what, pretty soon you wouldn't have any officials at all. We are all volunteers and, yes, some officials are better than others but showing judges scores will definitely not improve the scoring perception.

Since we are governed by AIBA when it comes to rules, maybe ya'll would be better off addressing your concerns and suggestions to that entity. They do have a web site and they will answer email.
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Post by emile »

boxmel wrote:The IOC doesn't "allow" anything. They just accept whatever system each IF uses.
You just said that the IOC required AIBA to change the scoring system? :-?

I can see why you wouldn't want the people in the arena to know your score. Maybe if they assigned the judges a random number so you wouldn't know which judge was assigning which score, but they could still be evaluated later by an assessor?

How do gymnastic judges keep from being assaulted? I'd be more scared of a furious, tiny, super-muscled ninja girl than a boxer . :)
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Post by boxmel »

You just said that the IOC required AIBA to change the scoring system?
Yes - but they didn't tell them how to do it.
Maybe if they assigned the judges a random number so you wouldn't know which judge was assigning which score, but they could still be evaluated later by an assessor?
The computer scoring system already has a built-in "cheating" report and a system of "cautions" and "warnings" that are printed out and assessed by ring captains and the Chief of Officials at all events using computer scoring. The ring captains and COOs are usually either US AIBA officials, or national officials with many years of experience.
How do gymnastic judges keep from being assaulted? I'd be more scared of a furious, tiny, super-muscled ninja girl than a boxer .
If you have never dealt directly with amateur boxing coaches and boxers, you have no idea how passionate, and irrational, they can get - coaches more so than athletes. Maybe there is a different type of personality involved in gymnastics. But, then again, you get parents killing AYSO coaches........ (this forum is automatically translating s o c c e r into "football," hence the use of AYSO.)
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Post by Dennis »

emile wrote:
boxmel wrote:The IOC doesn't "allow" anything. They just accept whatever system each IF uses.
You just said that the IOC required AIBA to change the scoring system? :-?

I can see why you wouldn't want the people in the arena to know your score. Maybe if they assigned the judges a random number so you wouldn't know which judge was assigning which score, but they could still be evaluated later by an assessor?

How do gymnastic judges keep from being assaulted? I'd be more scared of a furious, tiny, super-muscled ninja girl than a boxer . :)
Yeah, just remember what Tonya Harding did.
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Post by walshb »

boxmel wrote:
And a lot of these judges are probably too old and not quick enough mentally to score properly.
And just how old is too old? My husband, who is 64, when tested by the USOC, had one of the highest reaction times. I'm 67 and am quite quick mentally. Careful with your judgemental statements based only on your speculation, my dear.
They do NOT score flurries properly and the fact that aggression and ring generalship is NOT scored is plain wrong.
You can complain to AIBA and see if they will change the scoring criteria.
It has changed the whole sport of boxing,
Pro or amateur?
as pressure, aggression and controlling the ring always meant for something in scoring fights
Watch my lips. The above has NEVER been part of the scoring criteria for amateur boxing.

I think we can both agree that you do not like computer scoring and you do not agree with the amateur boxing scoring criteria. However, it's here to stay and it isn't going to change.
So you are saying that pressure, aggression and ring generalship were NEVER part of scoring in the amateur scene. I certainly didn't know this. Can anyone support this claim? I am intrigued.

As for the age issue, like it or not a person in their 60's or 70's on average do not have the same reflexes, eyesight or speed that a person has in their 20's or 30's or 40's and a lot of the judges in these tournamnets are IMO too old and possibly slow to keep up with the action.
It's human nature, not meant in anyway to be derogatory or inflammatory.
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Post by boxmel »

So you are saying that pressure, aggression and ring generalship were NEVER part of scoring in the amateur scene. I certainly didn't know this. Can anyone support this claim? I am intrigued.
You probably didn't know this because you are not an amateur boxing judge and have no knowledge of amateur boxing rules. Who else would you like to support my "claim?"

Per the USA Boxing rule book, page 43, 107.7, Awarding of Points, the criteria for scoring in amateur boxing is as follows: During each round, a judge shall assess the respective scores of each boxer ACCORDING TO THE NUMBER OF BLOWS obtained by each. Each blow to have scoring value must, without being blocked or guarded, land directly with the knuckle part of the closed glove of either hand on any part of the front or sides of the head or body above the belt. Blows landing as above described are scoring hits."
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Post by Dennis »

I don't think Mel's statement is accurate. I started to box in the amateurs in 1980 and aggression, ring generalship, etc. did effect the scoring of the judges. Even with the 20 point must system that was in place in the U.S. until 5 or so years ago, effective aggression and ring generalship, etc. were used to decide a round or bout if the points were even. Even now with electronic scoring, if the bout is tied with points and the next tie-breaker is tied, they go to the jury who selects the boxer they feel won. The elements discussed are used by the jury in that situation.

Below is an excellent article that discusses the problems with the current electronic scoring system:

Olympic Boxing: Scoring the Fights

Jones won plenty of gold in the pros, but was robbed in 88 Olympics







By Thomas Hauser
The Beijing Olympics are three years away. The London games are seven years in the future. But reform comes slowly in the convoluted world of international sports, so now is the time to take a long hard look at how Olympic boxing is scored.

Beginning in 1960, Olympic boxing matches were scored by five judges. Each judge voted for a winner based on his separate scoring of each round. The boxer who prevailed on a majority of the judges' cards, was declared the victor.

Unfortunately, as is often the case with Olympic officiating, incompetence and favoritism reigned. Then came a scandal that couldn't be ignored. At the 1988 Seoul Olympics, Roy Jones Jr. fought Park Si-Hun of South Korea in the gold-medal bout. Jones threw more punches than Park in every round. He landed more punches than Park in every round. And he landed at a higher connect rate than Park in every round. The numbers, provided by CompuBox, were as follows:

Round 1:
Jones: 20 of 85 = 24 percent
Park: 3 of 38 = 8 percent

Round 2:
Jones: 30 of 98 = 31 percent
Park: 15 of 71 = 21 percent

Round 3:
Jones: 36 of 120 = 30 percent
Park: 14 of 79 = 18 percent

Totals:
Jones: 86 of 303 = 28 percent
Park: 32 of 188 = 17 percent

But there was a problem. The judges, who were allowed a measure of subjectivity due to the rules in force at the time, declared Park the winner. Thereafter, seeking to regain a modicum of credibility, the International Olympic Committee turned to electronic scoring.

The scoring system currently in use at the Olympics was introduced at the 1989 World Championships and has been part of every Olympic boxing competition since then. Each of the five judges is given a computer console. The console has a blue button and a red button; one for each fighter. When a boxer lands a "scoring blow," each judge is supposed to press the button for that fighter.

A scoring blow is a punch that has (1) cleanly connected (2) with the knuckle surface of the glove (3) within the legal scoring area of the body (4) with the weight of the puncher's body or shoulder (5) while not infringing a rule (for example, a blow struck while holding doesn't count). In order to push his button, a judge must have been in position to see clearly that all of the above criteria have been met. At the end of the bout, the boxer with the most punches scored wins.

But here's the rub. For a punch to register, three of the five judges must press the same color button within a one-second time frame. And the system doesn't work.

Spectators watch a fight and the scoring is at odds with what they see unfolding before their eyes. Boxers are throwing fifty punches a round; and at the end of the bout, the score is 9 to 7. It's obvious that scoring blows (a lot of them) aren't being recorded. Regardless of whether or not the right boxer wins, scores aren't being tabulated properly. It's like watching a soccer game, seeing Manchester United score four goals, and being told at the end of the match that the final score is 2 to 1.

The International Amateur Boxing Association oversees standards for Olympic judging and selection of the judges themselves. AIBA (the acronym has a transposition in letters because of translation from the French language) divides the world into five "continents": Europe, Asia, Africa, Oceana, and the Americas (which includes North and South America). Thirty-six judges are assigned to each Olympics. Three of these come from the host country. The other 33 are chosen by the governing boxing federation of each continent. For example, six positions were allocated to the Americas for the 2004 Athens Olympics.

AIBA rules require that Olympic judges attend mandatory electronic-scoring sessions and have worked at least one World Championships in addition to other international competitions. But judges have different motor-skill reaction times. And under the present system, one incompetent or corrupt judge can significantly influence the outcome of a fight.

As previously noted, in order to be counted, a blow must be acknowledged by three of the five judges (60 percent) within a one-second time frame. But if a judge is looking for a reason to discount the punches of a particular fighter, he can simply push his button late or not at all. In that instance, the required percentage jumps to 75% (three of the other four judges). And conversely, if a judge is inclined to push his button in favor of a particular fighter landing a punch, only two of the other four judges (50%) are needed for the blow to score.

The system is so absurd that there have been instances in Olympic competition in which all five judges scored a bout in favor of a given boxer. Yet because of the timing of their button-pushing, the other boxer was awarded the decision on points.

The IOC is aware of the problem. In August 2005, it announced that it had frozen $9,000,000 in payments that had been earmarked for AIBA. Giselle Davies (an IOC spokeswoman) explained, "It's due to general judging issues that have remained unresolved since the Athens Olympics." IOC president Jacques Rogge has declared that the funds will remain frozen until AIBA provides a "clear timeline and planned actions" for dealing with the problem.

The solution is a no-brainer. IOC and AIBA, take note. The concept of each judge registering each blow makes sense. But you've taken something simple and screwed it up.

The judges should continue to register blows. But their findings should be tabulated separately. That way, one judge's score won't impact on the scores of the other judges. At the end of a bout, whichever boxer prevails on a majority of the judges' cards wins.

In other words, "Punch-Stats" with each judge being held individually accountable for his scoring.

Here, the thoughts of Bob Canobbio, who founded CompuBox with Logan Hobson in 1984, are instructive.

The CompuBox system utilizes a laptop computer with two keypads and two operators. Each keypad has four active keys; one each for jabs thrown, jabs connected, power punches thrown, and power punches connected. If a punch is blocked by an opponent's gloves or arms, it's registered as a miss. Each operator records the efforts of one fighter.

CompuBox was hired by NBC in 1988 to compute at the Seoul Olympics. Canobbio and Hobson were in Korea for a month, compiling statistics for every fight that involved an American, all other televised fights, and miscellaneous match-ups where one of the participants was perceived as a possible future opponent for an American. The Roy Jones fight was the culmination of their efforts.

"The current system of Olympic scoring doesn't work," says Canobbio. "The sixty-percent requirement is one reason. Another reason is that each judge is counting punches for both fighters. Even if you're just counting punches landed and not worrying about misses or the distinction between jabs and power punches, I'm not sure the eye is trained to accurately follow four gloves. We learned that at CompuBox twenty years ago. Also," Canobbio continues, "because of the way punches are counted, the fights are awful. Olympic boxers are taught to land one punch at a time rather than flurry because, no matter how many punches you land, the likelihood is that only one punch in a combination will be counted. That means Olympic boxing has started to look like fencing."

The CompuBox system is imperfect in that the distinction between "jabs" and "power punches" is often irrelevant. Not all "power punches" are damaging blows. But in Olympic scoring, all connects count the same so that flaw doesn't matter.

Meanwhile, Canobbio would be delighted to work with AIBA, train its judges, and license his computer program to them. "It would be good for boxing," he says. "And quite frankly, another reason I'd like to do it is because, right now, the Olympics are giving computerized punch-counting a bad name."

If the people who run AIBA are smart, they'll take Canobbio up on his offer. And they'll change the current system of scoring, because it's hurting the sport. Also, I should add, honest judges would help.

Thomas Hauser can be reached by email at [email protected]

Source: Secondsout.com
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Post by ABA Boxing »

Amateur boxing needs a massive clean sweep, out with the old in with the new, if it is to survive, the rule book needs to be rewritten. The AIBA needs young blood, with a boxing background, not ex executives or power mongers who have no interest in the sport, except for there own personal means.

Modern technology is fantastic, and with the progression of technology so does the sport progress.

The day Amateur boxing gets thrown out of the Olympics, could be the day that Amateur Boxing finally gets it act together and is reborn!
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Post by emile »

It's interesting that it was the Roy Jones fight which forced the switch to computer scoring, because that change immmediately cratered the US medal counts.
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Post by boxmel »

I don't think Mel's statement is accurate.
Then we need to get statements from judges who were around in 1980 and ask them what scoring criteria was used. I started judging in 1987 and the scoring criteria I was taught is the same as I have described in this forum.
I started to box in the amateurs in 1980 and aggression, ring generalship, etc. did effect the scoring of the judges.
Again, please find judges who will agree with you.
Even with the 20 point must system that was in place in the U.S. until 5 or so years ago, effective aggression and ring generalship, etc. were used to decide a round or bout if the points were even.
Ahhhh - now you're talking about the tiebreakers. There is a difference between actual scoring criteria and tiebreakers. If the final total of all round scores on a judges scorecard, i.e., using the 20-point must system or the current clickers, the tiebreakers are, in order of importance, (1) Effective aggression, (2) Better defense and (3) Better style.
Even now with electronic scoring, if the bout is tied with points
The computer tech adds up the accepted scores of both boxers, throws out the high and low scores and determines the winner.
and the next tie-breaker is tied, they go to the jury who selects the boxer they feel won.
No, the referee and the ring captain ask each judge to push the button on their keypad for the corner they felt won. At least this is how it is done in the U.S.
The elements discussed are used by the jury in that situation.
This is an inaccurate statement.
Last edited by boxmel on 14 Jun 2007, 12:34, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by boxmel »

Said ABA Boxing,
Amateur boxing needs a massive clean sweep, out with the old in with the new
Isn't that what just happened with the election of Dr. Wu? And the selection of a Reform Committee/Commission?
if it is to survive, the rule book needs to be rewritten.
What would be your suggestions regarding the rewriting of the rule book?
The AIBA needs young blood, with a boxing background,
Why is someone with "a boxing background," whatever that means, so important?
not ex executives or power mongers who have no interest in the sport, except for there own personal means.
See above re Dr. Wu and Reform group.
Modern technology is fantastic, and with the progression of technology so does the sport progress.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. How would YOU configure computer scoring?

In regards to the use of Compubox - it was tested along with our "new" computerized scoring system at the US Championships in 1994. I got the chance to "judge" on it. The results between the Compubox and the computer were the same. Both came up with the same winners. However, since we use 5 judges at tournaments, that would mean having 10 officials ringside with 10 Compuboxes. That would prevent huge logistical and financial difficulties for USA Boxing. Also, AIBA would have to approve the use of Compubox - or any other system.
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Post by boxmel »

Said Emile,
It's interesting that it was the Roy Jones fight which forced the switch to computer scoring, because that change immmediately cratered the US medal counts.
Yep - but it didn't "crater" the Cubans or the Eastern Europeans......so we can guess that (1) judges are cheating against the U.S. boxers or (2) the U.S. boxers need to learn how to box international/Cuban/Eastern European style.
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Post by Dennis »

boxmel wrote:
I don't think Mel's statement is accurate.
Then we need to get statements from judges who were around in 1980 and ask them what scoring criteria was used. I started judging in 1987 and the scoring criteria I was taught is the same as I have described in this forum.
I started to box in the amateurs in 1980 and aggression, ring generalship, etc. did effect the scoring of the judges.
Again, please find judges who will agree with you.

No, the referee and the ring captain ask each judge to push the button on their keypad for the corner they felt won. At least this is how it is done in the U.S.
Mel - you make blanket statements and only support it with "I'm a judge and computer tech so I know." and ask everyone else to support their statements with some type of hard proof. I am willing to bet you that the amateur scoring system basically mirrored professional scoring for many years. The U.S. Championships for boxing dates back to 1888 and the National Golden Gloves dates back to 1928 (some might argue that the earlier competitions between 1923 and 1927 were "national" tournaments. I don't know anyone alive today that will be able to tell us what scoring system was used in amateur boxing in the 1880's and 1890's. I think we will be hard pressed to find anyone who can recall, first hand accounts anyway, of the scoring system used prior to the 1920's.

Mel, I challenge you to find a rulebook from anytime prior to 1980 and show me the scoring system used at that time. Otherwise it is your opinion versus mine. I am sure I can give you a lot of anecdotal evidence from the minds of elderly men who "remember" how bouts were scored "back in the day" of say the 1940's through the 1970's. Again, I'm willing to bet that your blanket statement that aggression, defense and ring generalship were NEVER PART of the amateur scoring system is INCORRECT (I have already shown how they are part of the scoring system when it comes to tie-breakers).
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Post by boxmel »

Mel - you make blanket statements and only support it with "I'm a judge and computer tech so I know." and ask everyone else to support their statements with some type of hard proof.
Are you saying that my 20 years as a judge and 9 as a computer tech are not "hard proof?" If there is information contrary to what I'm saying then, yes, I would like "some type of hard proof.

Sorry, my rule books only go back to 1987. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. It's difficult to "win" a "he said/she said" debate. All I can do is offer "my" expertise. Let's just say that in the past 20 years, ring generalship and effective aggression are NOT part of the scoring criteria.
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Post by Dennis »

boxmel wrote:
Mel - you make blanket statements and only support it with "I'm a judge and computer tech so I know." and ask everyone else to support their statements with some type of hard proof.
Are you saying that my 20 years as a judge and 9 as a computer tech are not "hard proof?" If there is information contrary to what I'm saying then, yes, I would like "some type of hard proof.

Sorry, my rule books only go back to 1987. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. It's difficult to "win" a "he said/she said" debate. All I can do is offer "my" expertise. Let's just say that in the past 20 years, ring generalship and effective aggression are NOT part of the scoring criteria.
Yes, I am saying that your statements/opinions are not hard proof! Likewise, you're saying that my STATEMENTS/OPINIONS are not hard proof in your eyes!

Well ring generalship and effective aggression are part of the judging criteria, if it gets down to the judges having to decide which boxer they believe won the bout (and pressing the corresponding red or blue button) when the score is tied.

Just as you are offering your expertise, I am offering mine. My expertise stems from being an amateur boxer starting in 1980, coaching since 1997 and being a certified official for approximately 2-3 years.

Does anyone have a rulebook from the 60's or 70's? I would love to take a look at the old rules and see all the changes. There would be a lot of significant changes. No headgear is a big one.
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Post by walshb »

boxmel wrote:
So you are saying that pressure, aggression and ring generalship were NEVER part of scoring in the amateur scene. I certainly didn't know this. Can anyone support this claim? I am intrigued.
You probably didn't know this because you are not an amateur boxing judge and have no knowledge of amateur boxing rules. Who else would you like to support my "claim?"

Per the USA Boxing rule book, page 43, 107.7, Awarding of Points, the criteria for scoring in amateur boxing is as follows: During each round, a judge shall assess the respective scores of each boxer ACCORDING TO THE NUMBER OF BLOWS obtained by each. Each blow to have scoring value must, without being blocked or guarded, land directly with the knuckle part of the closed glove of either hand on any part of the front or sides of the head or body above the belt. Blows landing as above described are scoring hits."
Now you are just being extremely officious and awkward. Yes maybe the rule exists but to say that pressure, aggression and ring generalship does not or did not affect judges scoring amateur bouts is plain WRONG. So you are saying before computers, basically the humans operated as computers in that they pghysically counted up scores in their heads and tallied it up at the end, disregarding pressure, style, aggression and ring generalship?? I boxed for ten years as an amateur and watched hundreds of fights. I know the amateur game and I'm convinced, despite this RULE you quote, that judges took into account more than just scoring blows.
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Post by boxmel »

Now you are just being extremely officious and awkward.
Considering I am an official, I guess I can be officious. Why awkward? Just because you don't want to agree that I know what I'm talking about?
Yes maybe the rule exists
I quoted the rule and the page number in the rule book. I guess that makes it exist. Why are you having such a problem admitting I just might be correct?
but to say that pressure, aggression and ring generalship does not or did not affect judges scoring amateur bouts is plain WRONG.
Please tell me the basis for your above statement. Have you ever judged amatuer boxing? Do you personally know anyone who has that you can make the same statement to? Our rule book is online, if you care to take a look.
So you are saying before computers, basically the humans operated as computers in that they pghysically counted up scores in their heads and tallied it up at the end, disregarding pressure, style, aggression and ring generalship??
You got it! That's exactly what we did. Three punches equaled a point and, yes, we had to keep track of the punches in our heads.

If I may quote the 1998-99 (pre-computer) rule book: Awarding of Points - In awarding points the following directives shall be observed: Scoring blows. During each round, a judge shall assess the respective scores of each boxer according to the number of blows obtained by each. Each blow to have scoring value must, without being blocked or guarded, land directly with the knuckle part of the closed glove of either hand on any part of the front or sides of the head above the belt." Judges were also advised to assess the scoring value of each incident as it occurs and credit it mentally to each boxer concerned. "Judges are to use a system of three blows for one pont to determine the winner of the round." "Concerning the awarding of points - Twenty points shall be awarded for each round. At the end of each round, the better (more skillful) boxer shall receive twenty points and his opponent proportionately less." "Method of Scoring - Amateur boxing is scored on a point system not on a round system."
I boxed for ten years as an amateur and watched hundreds of fights. I know the amateur game and I'm convinced, despite this RULE you quote, that judges took into account more than just scoring blows.
I have officiated in amateur boxing for 20 years and have judged 8,633 bouts, using the RULE/criteria I have attempted to explain to you. However, if it is so very important that you are correct in your belief, then, please, keep it. Do not let me dissuade you from your fantasy. I do think it would be a good exercise for you to go to an official's certification class and learn how to become a judge. You might be more apt to believe someone other than me and that would be okay.
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Post by walshb »

I have no problem admitting you might be correct in saying the RULE exists. You quoted it and I believe it exists. Is it adhered to or 100% applied, disregarding all the other variables involved in boxing??. I am certainly not convinced. I firmly believe that other factors are taken into account. Maybe to a lesser extent but in a toe to toe war how on earth can a human judge, without the aid of a computer keep track of every punch recorded. In some fights there may be 200-300 punches thrown per round. Are you honestly saying judges can keep an accurate track of this and just disregard style, aggression, pressure and ring generalship.
You cannot expect a person to tally up accurately landing blows in a fast paced fight and only to use this as criteria for awarding victory
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Post by boxmel »

There is no way in the world that 200 to 300 LEGAL EFFECTIVE punches can be thrown in a 2-minute round. Please get realistic. And, yes, once again, style, aggression, ring generalship and pressure are NOT part of the scoring equation. Judges tally legal effective punches on the computer key pad and the tiebreakers (aggression, defense and style) are not used in computer scoring, only in clicker scoring. I frankly don't care if you aren't convinced and that you believe other factors are taken into account. You are not an amateur boxing judge and you obviously don't know the scoring criteria. I guess you'll just have to remain unconvinced as I'm not going to spend any more time trying to convince you when you obviously don't want to be convinced.

And, by the way, AIBA is currently testing a new scoring system "in which each judge counts blows separately, and the highest and lowerst of the five judges' scores will be discarded." The scoring criteria will remain the same. That's all the info that's been given out but it certainly looks like we may now have to have 10 judges and computers ringside. Logistically it will make sitting at ringside very tight and having to have 10 judges is going to be cost prohibitive for many.
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Post by walshb »

For someone who is so informed, you failed to notice that when the paper scoring which you say, used the rule you quoted, the rounds were of 3 minutes duration NOT 2....So pre computers, I believe the amateurs fought 3x3 mins. So yes, combined, two fighters could easily trade 2-3 hundred shots in a rd. I never said scoring shots, as some will definitely not land. Forget the computers. I am saying that before them the judges took into account not just scoring blows. They also based their verdict on other factors and to expect judges to tally up in their head, 9 minutes of action packed punching and use this as the only method of awarding victory is futile and not realistic or fair....

Once again, I am talking pre computers, when rds were 3 minutes each NOT 2
boxmel
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Post by boxmel »

They also based their verdict on other factors and to expect judges to tally up in their head, 9 minutes of action packed punching and use this as the only method of awarding victory is futile and not realistic or fair....
Maybe not in your estimation, but that's EXACTLY how the points were scored by judges - each round was "tallyed" in our heads and put on scorecards. The boxer with the most points at the end of the bout was declared the winner.
Once again, I am talking pre computers, when rds were 3 minutes each NOT 2
And what does 3 rounds at 3 minutes (for a total of 11 minutes including rest periods) have to do with 4 rounds at 2 minutes (for a total of 11 minutes including rest periods)?

You know, since you are being so bullheaded, I think I'm going to let you win this one. Since you won't believe someone who has been judging for 20 years, there really is no point in continuing this debate.
walshb
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Post by walshb »

boxmel wrote:
They also based their verdict on other factors and to expect judges to tally up in their head, 9 minutes of action packed punching and use this as the only method of awarding victory is futile and not realistic or fair....
Once again, I am talking pre computers, when rds were 3 minutes each NOT 2
And what does 3 rounds at 3 minutes (for a total of 11 minutes including rest periods) have to do with 4 rounds at 2 minutes (for a total of 11 minutes including rest periods)?

You know, since you are being so bullheaded, I think I'm going to let you win this one. Since you won't believe someone who has been judging for 20 years, there really is no point in continuing this debate.
3x3 has zero to do with 4x2. YOU said it was not realistic to believe that 300 shots could be thrown in 2 mins. I never said that either. I said pre computers the rds were 3 minutes duration and it was definitely possible to thrwo 300 shots combined. I think you are not reading m posts fully.
Look, forget bloody computers. I simply disagree that when judges judged 3x3 minute fights in the amateur game, before COMPUTERS, that all they based their verdict on was actual scoring shots. I also stated that it seemed silly to expect a judge to count up in their head every scoring shot, when at times fighters could be throwing 2-3 hundred punches a round, NOT scoring punches, but simply PUNCHES. Please read my posts carefully. I apologise if I sound bullheaded. I am simply questioning your rationale and I find it odd and strange that this was how all amateur fights were judged BEFORE computers were brought in
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