Four boxing myths...

[bennie]

1) Sonny Liston took a dive in his second fight vs. Muhammad Ali

The Ali-Liston rematch came 18 months after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and there are as many theories explaining "the fix" as there are regarding the murder of the president. A sampling:

* The mobsters who managed Liston bet against him: In fact, Liston was a 6-5 favourite, and there was minimal wagering on the fight.

* The Black Muslims intimidated Liston by threatening his life: In fact, the rumour on fight night was that defectors of the Muslim faith, seeking to avenge the assassination of Malcolm X, were en route to Lewiston, Maine, to murder Ali. Liston feared only one Black Muslim. That was Ali, whom he believed to be crazy.

* Liston quit because of pre-existing bursitis in his left shoulder: This take has been promoted by Geraldine Liston, the former champion's wife. "He shouldn't have fought either fight with Ali," Geraldine said in 1990.


After Ali's one-punch, one-round KO, the 3,000 fans at St. Dominic's Youth Center screamed "Fake!", and most of the boxing writers agreed. The legendary Jimmy Cannon went even further, writing: "[Boxing] has earned a passport to oblivion. There is no reason for its existence." In Washington, D.C., Senator John Tower called for a Congressional investigation, and in Albany, New York, Senate Majority Leader Joseph
Zaretski introduced a bill to outlaw pro boxing in the state. The hysteria aside, this is what really happened in Lewiston:
After training diligently for the rematch, the ageing Liston was disconsolate after the bout was postponed for six months. (Ali underwent emergency hernia surgery two days before the original fight date.) "Sonny was disgusted," said Milt Bailey, who worked his corner. "He was in terrific shape, and then he lost it."
About a minute in, Liston lunged with a jab and Ali countered with a chopping right to the temple. At first glance, the punch didn't seem like a KO blow. But it was delivered with speed, and Liston was still cold. Those who doubt the power of the punch should watch the tape in slow motion; Liston's head snapped upon impact, and before he crashed, his left foot lifted off the canvas. The chaos that followed, with Ali standing over Liston and referee Jersey Joe Walcott botching the count, confused the issue: Liston was legitimately knocked out.




2) The "Long Count" cost Jack Dempsey a KO win in his rematch with Gene Tunney

Seventy odd years after the famed "Long Count", the Tunney-Dempsey rematch became cocktail-party conversation once more, thanks largely to award-winning author Roger Kahn. In "A Flame Of Pure Fire: Jack Dempsey And The Roaring '20s" (Harcourt Brace & Company), Kahn serves up a fresh take on arguably the most controversial moment in ring history. According to Kahn, Dave Barry, the third man for that fight, intended to make sure Tunney retained the world heavyweight title. "In my tape of Chicago 1927," Kahn writes, "I am looking at a crooked referee."
Sorry, Roger. Yours is an intriguing theory, but little more than revisionist history.
In September 1926, Tunney took boxing's greatest prize from Dempsey, winning the title by unanimous 10-round decision before a crowd of 120,000 in Philadelphia. The ex-Marine was far too fast for the 31-year-old Dempsey, who hadn't fought in three years. The rematch, which brought boxing's first $2 million gate ($2,658,660, to be exact), was fought one year later at Soldier's Field in Chicago. The attendance: a mere 104,943.
Once reviled for ducking military service in World War I - Dempsey was tried and acquitted for draft evasion in 1920 - "The Manassa Mauler" was now a beloved hero. But he was still slower than Tunney, and 12 months older than he had been in Philadelphia. That was plainly evident over the first six rounds, during which Tunney dominated with his sterling jab.
Fifty seconds into the seventh, Dempsey broke through with a long left hook. Tunney fell sideways into the ropes, then, as Tunney slid toward the canvas, Dempsey added an overhand right, two hooks, and another right.
Before the bout, Barry had stressed to both fighters that if a knockdown were to occur, the standing fighter was to immediately proceed to a neutral corner. Dempsey resisted, however, and didn't move until Barry grabbed him by the arm and walked him across the ring. By the time Barry picked up the count, timekeeper Paul Beeler had reached five. But due to Dempsey's delay in following the rules, Barry began a fresh count. When he reached nine, Tunney, who had been clearly hurt by the knockdown punches, rose to his feet. He ran for the remainder of the round, then, fully recovered, dropped Dempsey in the eighth and cruised to another 10-round decision victory. More popular than ever, Dempsey never fought again.
The "Long Count" lasted at least 14 seconds. But even Kahn acknowledges that it's unfair to assume Dempsey had cost himself victory. "Could Tunney have gotten up at an honest nine?" he writes. "The answer is uncertain."
I'll give the last word to Tunney, who wrote in his autobiography: "Realizing, as do all professional boxers, that the first nine seconds of a knockdown belong to the man who is on the floor, I never had any thought of getting up before the referee said 'nine'. Only badly dazed boxers who have momentarily lost consciousness, and show-offs, fail to take that nine seconds that are theirs. No boxer that I have ever known has carried a stopwatch on his wrist going into the ring. Boxers always go by the referee's timing; whether 25 seconds or nine seconds had elapsed when the referee said 'nine' would have made no difference to me. My signal to get off the floor was the count 'nine'."




3) Jack Johnson took a dive in his title defence against Jess Willard

One photo may be worth a thousand words, but in this celebrated case, the words were all lies. By 1915, world heavyweight champion Johnson's life had spiralled out of control; he was 37, in debt, and out of shape. Worse yet, if he were to have re-entered the USA, he would have been imprisoned. In 1913, Johnson had been convicted of violating the Mann Act (transporting a woman across state lines for immoral purposes). He opted to jump bail and flee to Europe.
On 15 April of that year, Johnson defended against giant Jess Willard, the latest in a long line of White Hopes. That the bout was fought in the 103-degree heat of Havana, Cuba, didn't help the ageing champion. Nonetheless, Johnson dominated early, almost halting the 6ft 6ins, 230 pound challenger in the first, seventh, and eighth rounds. But Willard was in marvellous condition, and as the rounds mounted, Johnson began to wilt.
By round 20, Johnson was drained. In the 26th, a left to the body and a right drove him down, and referee Jack Welch counted him out. The myth that Johnson chose to get KO'd was primarily based on the famed ringside photo of the defending titlist lying flat on his back in round 26, supposedly shielding his eyes from the scorching sun. If Johnson had indeed been exhausted and badly hurt, the theory goes, he would never had had the wherewithal to shield his eyes. In fact, film of the fight shows Johnson flat and virtually motionless seconds after the photograph was taken. "I have no excuses to offer," he said after the fight. "A better and younger man has taken the championship title."
One year later, Johnson, nearly broke, sold a confession of his "dive" to newspaperman Nat Fleischer, who was not yet the founder and editor of The Ring. Fleischer never bought into Johnson's claim, which he found embarrassing. As a result, he failed to publish the document until 1968.
One other aside: Referee Welch reported having seen Johnson betting $2,500 on himself the day before the fight. That's a rather costly way to create an alibi, don't you think?




4) The 1950s was the golden age of boxing

Nothing is ever as good as it used to be. If you're a movie buff, well, they just don't make love stories like "Casablanca" anymore, do they? As far as cars are concerned, today's overpriced imports can't match the old Chevrolets for dependability. Boxing? Those ninnies of the '90s who call themselves world champs wouldn't have cracked the Top 10 in the good ol' days. Maybe our glorification of the past explains why so many fight fans and professionals, especially those of the older variety (myself included), view the '50s as "The Golden Age". Sure, the fighters were fantastic, and in this age of splintered titles, alphabet indictments, and decreasing mass appeal, it's tempting to wax eloquent about Sugar Ray, The Ol' Mongoose, and The Rock. But a bit of perspective is in order. If the '50s was "Friday Night Fights", "The Keed's" bolo punch, and Marciano's
miraculous KO of Walcott, it was also:

* Frankie Carbo running the show for blue-blood promoter James Norris and the monopolistic International Boxing Club (IBC). Carbo was essentially promoter, manager, and matchmaker rolled into one. If you didn't do business with "Mr Gray" or one of his associates, your fighter as instantly frozen out. You think Don King's image hurts the sport? Carbo was arrested 18 times for everything from felonious assault and grand larceny to murder (five times). In 1961, he and henchman Blinky Palermo, who managed, among others, Sonny Liston, Ike Williams, and Johnny Saxton, were convicted of conspiracy and extortion for trying to muscle in on the earnings of welterweight Don Jordan. Carbo's sentence: 25 years.

* The IBC shutting every other promoter out. With Joe Louis retiring, the IBC was formed in order to control the heavyweight title. Through the first half of the '50s, the omnipotent Norris promoted virtually every world title fight at heavyweight, middle, welter, light, and feather. Norris knew no bounds; he recreated the managers' guild to his liking, manoeuvred his way into the role of president of Madison Square Garden Corporation, and even employed Al Weill, who managed Marciano, as his matchmaker. In 1959, the Supreme Court upheld a lower-court ruling that the IBC and Madison Square Garden had violated the Sherman Anti-Trust Act by "conspiring to control the promotion of world championship fights throughout the USA". But it wasn't until Cassius Clay dethroned the mob controlled Sonny Liston in 1964 that the stench was fully gone.

* Respected trainer Ray Arcel getting hit over the head by a lead pipe because he dared challenge the IBC. In the early-'50s, the IBC ran nationally televised fights three nights a week. Arcel tried to compete, airing a show on Saturday nights. In 1953, he was standing in front of a hotel in Boston when a thug attacked him. Shortly after, "Saturday Night Fights" was off the air.
Ah, the good old days!




Steve Farhood

[bennie]

This is RICH.

Bennie presents modern media shill STEVE FARHOOD as his authority.

HERE IS Bennie's authority STEVE FARHOOD---

from another thread.
__________________________________________________________


After a while Burt Sugar left and Nat Fleischer's longtime competitor and enemy, Stanley Weston, who had put out the competing Boxing Illustrated for years, bought out and took over whatever was now left of the RING Magazine.
Weston put in Steve Farhood as his editor and the mistakes and rabid level selling of the Ali's--together with the trashing of the earlier fighters--- escalated.

Farhood had one classic article where he had a fairy tale imaginary fight between Joe Gans and a modern hero--with of course the modern hero winning the imaginary "fight."

But just a few problems---the picture Farhood used of Gans' face WAS NOT JOE GANS. Farhood didn't know the difference.
Another picture showed Gans and Battling Nelson fighting, only the picture was REVERSED, with both fighters in southpaw stances, which was obviously wrong.

When Farhood was contacted about this, he replied that he put the picture of Gans-Nelson as he had it---and that he DIDN'T KNOW whether it had been reversed or not.
I wrote back to him that if he ran a picture of Babe Ruth standing on his head while he was at bat --he (Farhood) might not know there was something wrong with the picture---but anyone COMPETENT in the subject would know at a glance.

Farhood also said, "Yes, he had run the wrong picture of Gans' face---but SO WHAT? "

That was what was left of the "Bible of Boxing" at that point.

Just an interesting story, that's all. And, by the way, it's BERT Sugar.

[bennie]

I love it, Bennie.

MODERN MEDIA SHILL Steve Farhood does his job.

He SELLS Ali.

That of course comes FIRST.

Then he trashes Jack Dempsey.

That of course comes SECOND.

Then he trashes earlier boxing in general.

That comes THIRD.



The tired, RELENTLESS routine of the MODERN MEDIA SHILLS,

acted out for the billionth time.

Thank you for proving my point so well, Bennie.

Always happy to humour a madman.

[Riddick Bowie]

shame on you bennie.

i was reading your post and recognised it is all lifted from an old boxing monthly.


what just because steve frickin farhood says something it must be true? he doesnt know fornicate all and for you to lift his colum and present it as your own is even lower!!

[knockout artist]

I suggest you read Bennie's post again.

You will see that he attributes it to Steve Farhood.

You are too quick to condemn.

[bennie]

shame on you bennie.

i was reading your post and recognised it is all lifted from an old boxing monthly.


what just because steve frickin farhood says something it must be true? he doesnt know fornicate all and for you to lift his colum and present it as your own is even lower!!

That ain't low. Coming from a guy who admires a convicted rapist like Trevor Berbick (raping his children's babysitter no less). Now, that's low.

[Riddick Bowie]

i certainly am knockout artist, i certainly am.

[Riddick Bowie]

shame on you bennie.

i was reading your post and recognised it is all lifted from an old boxing monthly.


what just because steve frickin farhood says something it must be true? he doesnt know fornicate all and for you to lift his colum and present it as your own is even lower!!

That ain't low. Coming from a guy who admires a convicted rapist like Trevor Berbick (raping his children's babysitter no less). Now, that's low.

how do you know i admire him?

provide evidence please.

[bennie]

shame on you bennie.

i was reading your post and recognised it is all lifted from an old boxing monthly.


what just because steve frickin farhood says something it must be true? he doesnt know fornicate all and for you to lift his colum and present it as your own is even lower!!

That ain't low. Coming from a guy who admires a convicted rapist like Trevor Berbick (raping his children's babysitter no less). Now, that's low.

how do you know i admire him?

provide evidence please.

This is what you wrote on the British forum a couple of weeks ago (in the thread 'Lightsoot knows something'):

"trevor berbick, one of my all time faves!
"trevor may be crazy, but hes a nice man."

Then on another thread ('What if Andrew Golota met Trevor Berbick?'), you added:
"he had ONE rape case which was highly dubious."

I suggest that the only thing dubious, is your choice of role model.

[Jaclem]

i'll let the rest of you argue out this overdone verbiage on overdone topics.....but.....i'm almost certain that ray arcel was banged on the head because he was involved at the time in an effort to form a boxer's manager's union.....not for the reason given in the thread. the union would have put more control into the hands of legit managers and out from under the thumbs of "mr. gray", palermo and the other charming souls of the era.

[wouter]

There's absolutely nothing that will ever convince me the second Ali v. Liston fight was on the level.

[Riddick Bowie]

That ain't low. Coming from a guy who admires a convicted rapist like Trevor Berbick (raping his children's babysitter no less). Now, that's low.

how do you know i admire him?

provide evidence please.

This is what you wrote on the British forum a couple of weeks ago (in the thread 'Lightsoot knows something'):

"trevor berbick, one of my all time faves!
"trevor may be crazy, but hes a nice man."

Then on another thread ('What if Andrew Golota met Trevor Berbick?'), you added:
"he had ONE rape case which was highly dubious."

I suggest that the only thing dubious, is your choice of role model.

bennie, bennie, bennie. i think you misunderstand the forum 'humour'.

i say 'one of my all time faves' in the same way they would on the current scene when guys like jeff merritt, rob calloway, mike evans or peter mcneeley type heavies are brought up.

the guy is a nut, but i have read and seen much of berbick for many years, and people who have met him have said he is a very nice man.

since you werent following boxing back in 92, let me tell you the rape case was highly suspect. plus, if he was guilty, why did he only serve 12 months? (you didnt know that) thats even shorter than tysons prison reign, which was similarly without a great deal of weight behind it.

rapists get 10 to 15 years correct? if berbick was a rapist, wouldnt he be in prison right NOW?

[Roll With The Punches]

'Liston was cold, the punch was on the temple, it's great speed made it even harder blah blah'

NOTHING can justify that knock down

[The Keed]

Liston's head snapped upon impact, and before he crashed, his left foot lifted off the canvas.

[knockout artist]

Absolutely right.

The fight was a fix.

Liston went down, rolled around a bit, looked up at Walcott, got up, legs fine, eyes clear, gloves up. If he was hurt as bad as the Ali fans make out, why did Walcott let the fight go on?

Ali threw a light combo, Liston covered up and was perfectly OK, Walcott stopped the fight.

Liston did not look hurt because he was not hurt.

Liston did look EMBARRASSED. He was probably thinking this looked terrible, no one will buy it.

Its the only fight where ive seen a fighter get up from a knockdown, pefectly OK, carries on fighting and is OK, the referee stops it and THE LOSER DOES NOT PROTEST.

ONCE AND FOR ALL, LISTON WAS UNDER ORDERS.

[bennie]

Liston's head snapped upon impact, and before he crashed, his left foot lifted off the canvas.

You call yourself an editor, but can't even see a byline. It's obvious you wouldn't last two minutes as a journalist.
Now go away and read it properly.

[Sweet Scientist]

There's absolutely nothing that will ever convince me the second Ali v. Liston fight was on the level.

OK...but let me take a stab at it, just for the hell of it...

REMEMBER...This fight ENDED with Liston and Ali FIGHTING!!!
Liston went down, Ali didn't go to a neutral corner...Referee Walcott (WHO DID THE WORST JOB OF REFEREEING IN THE SPORT'S HISTORY!) was confused and not in control of the situation. This fight ended when Nat Fleisher (editor of The Ring magazine & noted boxing historian) went over to the thoroughly confused & rattled Walcott and informed him that the timekeeper reached the ten count while Sonny was still down. Never mind that Ali didn't go to a neutral corner, never mind that Liston got up and resumed the fight, never mind that Walcott was (supposedly) in charge and Fleisher had absolutely no authority at all in this matter, Nat said the fight is over and Walcott went right along with it.

So, as another poster asked on another thread, Does this mean that Fleisher was in on the 'fix'? CERTAINLY NOT!!!

BUT...the fight DID END WITH BOTH FIGHTERS ON THEIR FEET AND FIGHTING...AND IT WAS ENDED BY NAT FLEISHER!!!

I always liked Fleisher, we've all read his magazine....

Bottom line: Would we be having this discussion if Nat had let history take it's course without interfering??? Would this be another 'long count' fight...It's not impossible that Liston COULD have won, stranger things have happened. WALCOTT should have taken charge and, if in HIS opinion Ali didn't go immediately to a neutral corner, then Liston gets extra time down...and the fight goes on...NAT FLEISHER HAD NO BUSINESS INTERFERING!!!!!!!

This should be something one considers in this matter, wouldn't you agree?

[Jaclem]

the only addition i'll make to the ali/liston second fight is a comment i've not read here or anywhere....about a week before the fight...maybe just a day or two...ali, in one of his press conferences, said "if i told you what was going to happen you wouldn't come to the fight." i think that was in answer to a reporter asking for ali's usual pre-fight prediction.

i saw that fight on closed circuit tv, with Rollie Schwartz (head of training for major amatuer boxers....give him a google) and Bobby Elkus, member of the family that originally managed ezzard charles. the boxers were circling and bobby went to light a cigar....dropped the match and just then liston went down...while bobby was looking on the floor for his match. then the roar from the crowd....by the time bobby got up the people were standing....and liston was on the floor. "dammit..dammit..."bobby said.."did i miss it? did the soon of a bitch quit again?"

as bobby had sprung for the tickets for us we always ribbbed him about that being the most expensive cigar he never got to light.

back to the ali quote.....it's just that, and i enter it without interpretation.

[Sweet Scientist]

the only addition i'll make to the ali/liston second fight is a comment i've not read here or anywhere....about a week before the fight...maybe just a day or two...ali, in one of his press conferences, said "if i told you what was going to happen you wouldn't come to the fight."

What Ali said in press conferences, although sometimes entertaining, could be taken with a grain of salt...surely you don't consider that quote to be some sort of 'proof' of a fix?

And the biggest problem I still have with the 'fix theory' is that Nat Fleisher ended the fight with both fighters up & fighting! If Fleisher hadn't interfered, would Sonny have to take a second 'dive' to get the job done? If Liston was taking a dive then why did he get up & resume fighting Ali? Why not just stay down?

AND, if the fight was really fixed, why the hell wouldn't Liston stay around for a few rounds and make it look legitimate? I'd like to think Sonny was smarter than to just drop down on the canvas in the first minute of the fight and expect people would believe it...

He got hit, just hard enough to go down...was perhaps shocked to find himself on the canvas...and the with Ali yelling at him (and Walcott confused as to how to handle this simple situation) he got back up and resumed fighting...

I still don't understand why it was stopped...they were up & fighting when it was stopped, AND THAT'S THE WORST THING ABOUT THE WHOLE FIASCO!

I always understood how people could yell fix...but it just seems too obvious...nobody would fix a fight like that...

The best fixes...were the ones you never heard about...

[wouter]

AND, if the fight was really fixed, why the hell wouldn't Liston stay around for a few rounds and make it look legitimate? I'd like to think Sonny was smarter than to just drop down on the canvas in the first minute of the fight and expect people would believe it...

You believe it

[Jaclem]

If you'll read my post again, i said i was printing ali's press conference statement "without interpretation"....two easily understood english words.
Maybe he was so confident that he was hinting at a legitimate first round kayo. he knew liston wasn't in the shape he got into for the original rematch date...that was postponed because of an ali injury. maybe he thought arena was going to catch on fire, or be crumbled by an earthquake.

I don't know. that's why i didn't comment on the quote. that it what i meant by no interpetation. no analysis. those who want to interperate it are free to do so....as they would be even without my permission. make of it what you will.

[Riddick Bowie]

.............i'd like to add to this that they resumed fighting because the referee joe walcott allowed them to.

sonnys theatrics on the floor were appauling and when he finally got up he thought he had been counted out. but joe walked off and left him to defend himself when ali jumped on him.

the first fight i believe was legit and i have an original tape of it. the second is just too dodgy to believe.

ali didnt need any help to beat liston btw.

[silkov]

The bitterness on this interesting thread attempted by Bennie is just mind boggling!!!..... I agree with the points you made Bennie, and as for Steve Farhood I think he knows a vast amount more about boxing than all you anti Ali guys put together. You'd avoid any proven fact (such as Nat Flieschers role in the stoppage of Ali vs Liston2) in order to push your anti-Ali doctrines. You guys go on and on about the Ali media and all that yet you guys are the most obnoxious and closed minded and undemocratic and abusive bunch I ve ever come across.
Have you ever thought about following football instead?.

[Sweet Scientist]

and as for Steve Farhood I think he knows a vast amount more about boxing than all you anti Ali guys put together.

DUCK!!! Here come the insults from Terap & his clones!!!

[Sweet Scientist]

AND, if the fight was really fixed, why the hell wouldn't Liston stay around for a few rounds and make it look legitimate? I'd like to think Sonny was smarter than to just drop down on the canvas in the first minute of the fight and expect people would believe it...

You believe it

Listen...this whole thing (Ali-Liston II) has a lot of problems. It isn't as 'cut and dry' as some would have you believe. I don't neccessarily believe it one way or another...it just seems to me that...if you're going to fix a fight, it should look legitimate...and I still maintain my biggest point in the post...

the best fixes...are the ones you never heard about...