The Ten Greatest Fetherweights of all time

[silkov]

1. Henry Armstrong
2. George Dixon
3. Willie Pep
4. Young Griffo
5. Abe Attell
6. Salvadore Sanchez
7. Sandy Saddler
8. Tony Canzoneri
9. Alexis Arguello
10. Euesbio Pedrosa

....I d like to see any comments and alternative lists from others.

[bennie]

1. Henry Armstrong
2. George Dixon
3. Willie Pep
4. Young Griffo
5. Abe Attell
6. Salvadore Sanchez
7. Sandy Saddler
8. Tony Canzoneri
9. Alexis Arguello
10. Euesbio Pedrosa

....I d like to see any comments and alternative lists from others.

Saddler should be higher (in my opinion), and Terrible Terry should be in there. Good list though. I agree that Abe Attell is top five.

[silkov]

The Pep vs Saddler point is interesting as there have always been two camps with regard to who was the better fighter. Although obviously Saddler won their rivalry 3-to-1 Pep supporters tend to say that he was on the slide in his fights with Saddler. I think myself that Pep was past his best certainly in their 3rd and 4th fights. How would Saddler had fared against the Pep of the early 40s.... I think Pep was quicker and fresher then and would have boxed and out-boxed Saddler (like he did in their 2nd bout) rather than get drawn into a maul as he did in the 3rd and 4th fights. Saddler was certainly great though, and is generally very overlooked and under rated. I just feel that Pep pips him overall.

[bennie]

The Pep vs Saddler point is interesting as there have always been two camps with regard to who was the better fighter. Although obviously Saddler won their rivalry 3-to-1 Pep supporters tend to say that he was on the slide in his fights with Saddler. I think myself that Pep was past his best certainly in their 3rd and 4th fights. How would Saddler had fared against the Pep of the early 40s.... I think Pep was quicker and fresher then and would have boxed and out-boxed Saddler (like he did in their 2nd bout) rather than get drawn into a maul as he did in the 3rd and 4th fights. Saddler was certainly great though, and is generally very overlooked and under rated. I just feel that Pep pips him overall.

Yes, I would have Pep one place higher than Saddler in an all-time featherweight top 10. The pre-plane crash Pep was untouchable (bar Sammy "The Clutch" Angott). And his phenomenal final record of 229-11-1 speaks for itself.

[knockout artist]

Pep certainly was great, but I think there is a romanticised view about him generally.

Saddler was better than Pep, better puncher, stronger, faster, more durable. Pep had better feet and good ring generalship, but not enogh to beat Saddler.

I'd certainly have Saldivar in my top 10.

I'd have Sanchez in the top 10. He could have been higher, a beautiful fighter to watch.

[silkov]

Actually Terap Saddler only koed Pep once. In their 3rd fight Pep retired after the 7th round with a dislocated shoulder, in their fourth fight Pep quite at the end of the ninth round with a terribly lacerated right eye. Pep had actually been out-boxing Saddler in the 3rd contest before his shoulder was dislocated in a clintch. A stoppage is very different to a outright ko, especially as both stoppages were caused by Saddlers rough tactics. I find it hard to believe that Terap believes that Saddler was the only exceptional fighter Pep ever met. Read his record. Its right here on boxing-rec!!!. Chalky Wright was a great fighter in his own right who had possibly as good a punch as Saddler. Among Peps many other scalps is Manuel Ortiz, the great Bantam champ. There are many others you can look up Terap. And remmember Koby doesn't always mean an outright knockout.

[The Keed]

Saddler knocked Pep cold as a mackeral in their first fight---in four rounds.

In the 2nd fight Pep fought what he himself said was the greatest fight of his life and barely made it to the end--with bad cuts above and below both eyes.

Pep was knocked out in three fights out of four against Saddler.

The record speaks for itself.

In his earlier career Pep never fought anyone as good as Saddler.

AGREED.

[The Keed]

And how come Azumah Nelson isn't on anyone's list?

[silkov]

Azumah Nelson was just pipped in my list by Pedrosa and Arguello... but there was hardly anything in it. For ability and great fights the Featherweights are possibly boxings greatest division and so any ranking of the best is very difficult. Griffo had phenominal ability which is borne out by his record.... and this is a man who hardly trained and liked the odd drink (to put it mildly). His party trick in bars was to stand on a hankerchief and dare people to hit him as he blocked, ducked and swayed out of the way of punches while not moving from the hankerchief.

[silkov]

French Featherweight Eugene Criqui who won the world title off Johnney Kilbane has an interesting story. He was a brilliant boxer with a good punch but won mostly on points in his early days. Then while serving in WW1 (as either a fighter pilot or soilder I'm not sure) Criqui had his jaw shattered by a shell. He was told by doctors that he would never fight again. But after being discharged from the rest of the war he started fighting again but adopted a completely different style. He became an out and out slugger trying to get a knockout as quick as possible. The thinking behind his new style was that he felt that his remodelled jaw may not stand up under long fights so he adopted a 'kill or be killed' attitude in the ring. He was very successful, fighting his way to a world title shot... which he won against the great Kilbane. Nearly all Criqui's victories after his war injuries came via koes.

[Irishlad69]

Another great feather who often gets either ignored, or underrated today is peerless jim driscoll. Driscoll by all accounts beat abe attell convincingly, winning every round by wide margins. Abes title was only saved by the no decision rule. Driscoll was apparently having the better of his famous fight with lightweight great freddie welsh too, before he commited the foul which resulted in his disqualification.

[Alex]

French Featherweight Eugene Criqui who won the world title off Johnney Kilbane has an interesting story. He was a brilliant boxer with a good punch but won mostly on points in his early days. Then while serving in WW1 (as either a fighter pilot or soilder I'm not sure) Criqui had his jaw shattered by a shell. He was told by doctors that he would never fight again. But after being discharged from the rest of the war he started fighting again but adopted a completely different style. He became an out and out slugger trying to get a knockout as quick as possible. The thinking behind his new style was that he felt that his remodelled jaw may not stand up under long fights so he adopted a 'kill or be killed' attitude in the ring. He was very successful, fighting his way to a world title shot... which he won against the great Kilbane. Nearly all Criqui's victories after his war injuries came via koes.

That's quite incredible! Where did you get the info on Criqui? I'd like to read more on him.

[TonyJ]

I know its a little early but what do youguys think of Barrera making it in the top featherweight list?

He lost twice to Jones but since then he has changed his style and looks unbeatable at feather(the two fight with Morales could have gone either way) i say he has a good shot to become one of the greatest feathers of all time with acouple of more wins vs top notch fighters he should be there, well atleast IMO.

[Alex]

I agree Tony, Barrera is well on his way to being considered one of the all time greats at Featherweight. And he won both Morales fights in my opinion.

[silkov]

Glad you were interested in the story of Criqui Alex, he's always interested me as he came back from such a severe injury to not only box again but win a world title. I got the story about him changing his style from a boxing news paper from either the 50s or 60s (I can't actually remember the exact copy as I have so many and read this story quite a while back) ....I'd reccommend buying old Boxing News papers if you like reading about the early fighters... as they are full of such stories (unlike the presentday Boxing News alas) .....old Boxing Illustrateds and Rings are also good for this. There is also a short bit about Criqui in the book 'A pictorial history of boxing' which is not so hard to get second-hand and is a must really for a boxing fan. There is also a photo of Criqui in this book and you can clearly see the nasty scar which runs from the corner of his mouth to the underside of his chin.
I like both Barrera and Morales although my personal favourite is Morales.... they are definately two of the best champs around today (along with Mayweather) and will be remembered.
Strangely in their fights I think Barrera and Morales both won the fights that they lost and lost the fights that they won..... if you know what I mean.
I m just hoping that they get together again soon... I d give Morales a definate edge if they meet at Junior-lightweight.

[Alex]

Cheers Silkov, i'll look out for a copy of A pictorial history of boxing. They've reissued it under the title 'An Illustrated History of Boxing', but i'm not sure if this remains true to Fleischer's original book. I agree with you about the current Boxing News... it's rare to find a retrospective feature looking back further than the 60's or 70's and articles on pre-war boxers are now virtually unheard of!

A third fight between Barrera and Morales would be great for boxing. As you say, at juniour lightweight Morales might well be a little too strong for Barrera.

[silkov]

Alex, if you are mainly interested in the older fighters and the historical elements (and like rare insights into the early fights and fighters) then I'd reccommend you buy an original copy of ' A pictorial history of boxing' as I think that the newly issued book will have more detail about the present at expense of the past.
The original 'A pictorial history...' has great insights and some really rare pics. Its a great book to introduce you to fighters that are hardly mentioned these days. There are some amazing (and rare) photoes too..... infact the book is worth getting for the pics alone.
The book was first published in the late 50s... then updated every couple of years.... in some ways you can see it as a companion book to The Ring Record book.
You can pick up a copy quite often on the Ebay Uk site..... the best copies to go for are late 70s or early 80s. I have a 1977 copy which is hardback and a 1981 copy which is soft-back but is updated from the '77 version with no diminishing of the details of the earlier fighters. So basically the '81 copy is larger with more in it ....but the downside is that it's a soft-back. Having said that though I've had the '81 copy since '82 (that's made me feel old!) and it's worn very well.
I could talk endlessly about this book as it was the book that got me into boxing.

[enrique]

I HAVE A CHAPTER ON CRIQUI IN MY BOOK "BOXING THIS IS IT!" CO AUTHORED WITH HANK KAPLAN ABOUT FIFTEEN YEARS AGO. HE WAS A SPECIAL CHARACTER WHO OVERCAME ADVERSITY TO BECOME WORLD CHAMP. I BELIEVE HIS JAW WAS MADE OF METAL AND SHEEP BONE. HE WAS A FRENCH INFANTRY CORPORAL WOUNDED IN BATTLE IN THE TRENCHES OF WW I.

[wsbuf]

Featherweights from the 1920's-30's had the best talent. Tommy Paul and Freddie Miller are very underrated!!

[silkov]

Freddie Miller is very underrated, from what I ve been able to gather of him he was a great little fighter and a real globe trotter.... he was one of the divisions most busy fighters.... much like Johnney Dundee. Its worth noting also that Miller was only koed once in his whole career... in his last fight... in 245 fights!.
Enrique, that book 'Boxing this is it!' sounds really interesting (I haven't got it) ....any chance of some more details about it?..... who else is in it?... what else does it say about Criqui?.... articles/books with Criquie in are like golddust as they are so rare.

[Holyfield Headbutt]

1)Sandy Saddler
2)Willie Pep
3)Salvador Sanchez
4)Eusebio Pedroza
5)Abe Attell
6)George Dixon
7)Azumah Nelson
8)Naseem Hamed
9)Tony Canzoneri
10)Ruben Olivares

[Giancarlo]

Good topic from a while back.

[gilgamesh]

1)Sandy Saddler
2)Willie Pep
3)Salvador Sanchez
4)Eusebio Pedroza
5)Abe Attell
6)George Dixon
7)Azumah Nelson
8)Naseem Hamed
9)Tony Canzoneri
10)Ruben Olivares

I think Marco Antonio Barrera or Erik Morales were better Featherweights than Olivares personally. Barrera was damn sure better than Hamed and he showed it.

[Mr E]

I think some of the biggest names in featherweight division history -- specifically, Kid Chocolate, Tony Canzoneri, Henry Armstrong, and Alexis Arguello -- actually hit their pound-for-pound peaks after they outgrew the division, so I have a hard time rating them as "featherweights" for that reason. Here is my best effort, though:

1-Sandy Saddler
2-Willie Pep
3-Jim Driscoll
4-Salvador Sanchez
5-Henry Armstrong
6-Tony Canzoneri
7-Alexis Arguello
8-Kid Chocolate
9-Johnny Dundee
10-Azumah Nelson

But my all-time favorite is still Danny Little Red Lopez.