USA boxing in trouble

pound per pound · Post by **pound per pound** » 13 Jun 2007, 14:05

By trainer Kenny Weldon.

When Andre Ward won the gold medal for the United States in 2004, he became the third gold medal winner at the Olympic games in 12 years. Today the American boxers competing at the China Olympic games will be fortunate to win any medals, according to coaches I have spoken to who were at the USA Nationals this past week. According to several, one or two of the boxers who seem to be shoe-ins, both politically and skill-wise, are lacking in the kind of talent needed to win a medal. This is not good. Not for amateur boxing and not for the future of our sport in this country. I hear it over and over again from amateur coaches that the national picture for amateur boxing is bleak, to say the least. One coach says "these kids today are not disciplined or hungry like those 19 years ago when we had multiple Gold medal winners (1988) ". He says, even worse, "they are spoiled and have no pride in their country".

A coach I have known for twenty years just guaranteed me this would be the last Olympics in which the United States would enter a boxing team. This is how badly the United States Boxing Teams have been doing at international events they say! So PLEASE TELL ME IF YOU CAN, WHY WE HAVE THE SAME COACHES COACHING OUR TEAM THAT WE HAVE HAD FOR THE PAST 19 1/2 YEARS? duuuhhhhhh ! Hey USA BOXING AND USA OLYMPIC COMMITTEE, REPLACE THE COACHES! What else can it be? KIDS ARE KIDS! STOP BLAMING THEM! IT IS THE COACHING! The United States of America has many great amateur boxing coaches out there who have earned the right to represent this country at the Olympics, who are fast moving into professional boxing because of the lack of opportunity in the amateurs, not to mention the fear of having their boxers stolen from them. I could easily give you the names of the folk behind the scene who are instigating this situation, but I am already treading in the deepest of waters because I still have an amateur boxing team with kids who one day hope to be Olympians themselves. I love working with kids and I love boxing . It is sad this is no longer the case for some people in power positions of our sport. AGAIN, POWER MONGERS, IT'S ABOUT THE KIDS AND THE SPORT, NOT YOUR EGOS OR MONEY!!!!

emile · Post by **emile** » 13 Jun 2007, 14:18

The poll is a false syllogism. What if don't believe either one - that it's fine or in bad shape, but maybe something in between?

I think there's a pretty solid chance that they will win more medals than in 2004, and as long as there is boxing in the Olympics, there will be a US team.

I can't speak to the quality of the coaching, but I do agree that its lame to blame the kids. However, we have a system more geared towards pro style and pro success as amateur boxing has become more stylized, and that would fundamentally have to change for us to become dominant in the amateur scene again.

azumah · Post by **azumah** » 13 Jun 2007, 14:29

I'm not exactly sure who is to blame, but it is an enormous problem. For some reason the all the things that are lacking in the kids according to the coaches are either remaining the same or are increasing in other sports (football, basketball, golf, etc.)
If I had to guess, I'd say the problem runs a little deeper than just the coaches (assumming they are to blame at all). In addition to the amateurs, the sport is sinking at the professional level here in the U.S. as well. Take a look at how many Eastern Europeans are in the top ten heavyweights today versus twenty years ago.
There is no doubt that the sport is in trouble locally. I'm not sure the coaches are to blame, though.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 13 Jun 2007, 14:37

pound per pound wrote:One coach says "these kids today are not disciplined or hungry like those 19 years ago when we had multiple Gold medal winners (1988) ". He says, even worse, "they are spoiled and have no pride in their country".

If this statement is true, then how can it be the coaches' fault? Maybe american society is to blame for developing lazy, spoiled kids. I see a lot of talented, hungry, disciplined U.S. boxers.

Are the U.S. boxers younger and less experienced than some of their international counterparts? Yes.
Do they get less international experience than boxers in some of the other countries? Again, the answer is yes.
Are our boxers typically paid a handsome salary to train full-time like some of the other countries? For the most part the answer is NO.
Do many U.S. boxers get taught a more professional boxing style so that someday they might become successful pro boxers? YES.

pound per pound · Post by **pound per pound** » 13 Jun 2007, 14:57

emile wrote:The poll is a false syllogism. What if don't believe either one - that it's fine or in bad shape, but maybe something in between?

I think there's a pretty solid chance that they will win more medals than in 2004, and as long as there is boxing in the Olympics, there will be a US team.

I can't speak to the quality of the coaching, but I do agree that its lame to blame the kids. However, we have a system more geared towards pro style and pro success as amateur boxing has become more stylized, and that would fundamentally have to change for us to become dominant in the amateur scene again.

Sometimes I do blame the kids. The last Super heavyweight we had was a disgrace. Jason Estrada showed up extremely over weight, and basically said he gave up in the interview when he lost. The #1 USA heavyweight used to be a spot of glory.

How did we go from Joe Frazier and George Foreman to Clay-Bey and Estrada? Sheet.

Personally, I don't want any lazy or bad character types on the team, unless he a super talent and sure fire medal winner.

I'm not sure you can say our amateur system is geared towards the pros because they are used to fighting in the amateurs.

As for the coaching, I don't who the coaches are, but I do know the results have been poor for many years and its time for a change.

Roberts J · Post by **Roberts J** » 13 Jun 2007, 15:37

I agree with what Dennis said. The amount of spoiled kids ir large, and the comfort zone in america is large as well, baseball etc. When I was in Europe I saw the conditions in Russia and Belarus and no wonder there gyms are packed and they keep exploding with talent, I think It will be fine though, give it time.

azumah · Post by **azumah** » 13 Jun 2007, 16:08

One thing that has to be considered when analyzing this topic is the amount of support amatuer boxing is given relative to the other amatuer sports. Sports such as football, basketball, baseball, golf, tennis have tremendous support in the form of organization, media exposure, and scholarships. Much more so than boxing, anyways.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 13 Jun 2007, 23:32

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 14 Jun 2007, 00:33

I try to coach the kids to learn good basic skills first. Many of these translate very well in both Olympic style amateur boxing and pro boxing. Those skills are good defensive skills, hands high, slipping punches, using a good jab, and straight rights (or lefts for our southpaws). They also learn body punching skills, uppercuts, hooks, overhand punches, up jabs, etc. We try to teach some counter-punching skills as well. The experienced boxers then learn a lot more. I teach some boxers to be better inside fighters when it is appropriate because they are short with short arms. I don't teach the same style to every boxer.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 14 Jun 2007, 12:27

Like Dennis, everytime I go to an amateur show I see a lot of talented, disciplined boxers. The amateur scoring system may be the reason our kids no longer bring home Olympic medals. If I was a young amateur and I had good pro skills I wouldn't change to a more international style so that I could win an Olympic medal.

Then your dream is not to go to the Olympics but to become a pro boxer. In my experience, those I've seen with "pro skills" do not make it to the elite level of amateur boxing. The Cubans box "international" style, as do the Eastern Europeans and they keep bringing in the gold medals. Why wouldn't we want to focus on this goal with our top athletes?

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 14 Jun 2007, 13:42

We do try to get our boxers to do what they can to compete with the current scoring system which IS FLAWED. That system can create boring bouts and is not fan friendly. Not all boxers can box in the European style. Why should we train everyone to box that way? Many kids will be happy learning how to box a more pro style and win some STATE titles and these are kids that do not have the physical tools to succeed in Olympic Style boxing on the international level. For them it is better to be taught a more pro style.

If you have not coached for years, you will not understand what all the fuss is about.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 14 Jun 2007, 13:54

I do understand the fuss, even though I am not a coach. I, along with many others, am just trying to figure out what the problem is. You MUST teach boxers to stay in the middle of the ring and move and to stay out of the corners and off the ropes. They need to learn to not wait before throwing punches. Just a few suggestions I have from watching competitions. If the computer system is totally FLAWED, why are the Cubans and Eastern Europeans winning? Why is it just affecting the US, or other countries, elite boxers?

I also agree that not all boxers will reach an elite, international, level - that some are content to win a state or regional title and not go on from there. And there is nothing "wrong" with that thinking/desire for those athletes. Not everyone is a DeLaHoya, or Mosley, or Mayweather....

And, by the way, all I do is offer my opinion from my point of view and experience. This does not make me "right" or "wrong" and I am not trying to "win" any discussions/debates. I think there have been, and will continue to be, excellent dialogues on this forum, no matter the topic. I think the give and take is valuable for everyone who participates.

squarering · Post by **squarering** » 14 Jun 2007, 14:47

If we want to spent time looking at what and who's to blame, I think you can rule out coaching, Many of the same coaches that have seen great success are still working with kids today. I do agree that kid's do not have the same work ethic as kids 30 or 40 years ago, but where does that blame go. Also, Other sports have done thier job to promote themselves while boxing has continued to loose ground. I don't believe that the general public even understands where the superstars come from, as if they just turn pro and "poof" some top name trainer teaches them to fight. Kids will gravitate to sports where the most eyes are watching. Many of bigger kids are being swept up by middleschool basketball and football coaches. The rest can choose from that game where you kick the ball around, lacross, wrestling and baseball. As far as styles, if we could get all officials on the same page and USA Boxing on the same page, we could train one style from novice to international. the way it is now you box one way at club shows, another when you get the Nat GG, another when you get the USA Nat, then you have to send your kid to camp to learn International style. If the ultimate goal, is to win at the Olympic level, then that is how we should train our kids at the local level right from novices. As a coach I believe the more you simulate what you will be doing, the better your chances of doing it. I don't like velpro, and I don't think many boxer do either, but that's one more reason to get used to it early in thier carreer. I could go on all day about what's wrong, but it won't help anything and any suggestion even good ones are worthless unless we can get them implimented. We have a new evectutive director and if he is as competant and commited as I have heard, I will support him and offer any help I can if it means putting boxing back where it belongs. The fight to revive amateure boxing's popularity in the USA may be the toughest bout any of us has had, Now we'll really find out if we are fighters.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 14 Jun 2007, 14:47

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 14 Jun 2007, 15:00

squarering wrote:If we want to spent time looking at what and who's to blame, I think you can rule out coaching, Many of the same coaches that have seen great success are still working with kids today. I do agree that kid's do not have the same work ethic as kids 30 or 40 years ago, but where does that blame go. Also, Other sports have done thier job to promote themselves while boxing has continued to loose ground. I don't believe that the general public even understands where the superstars come from, as if they just turn pro and "poof" some top name trainer teaches them to fight. Kids will gravitate to sports where the most eyes are watching. Many of bigger kids are being swept up by middleschool basketball and football coaches. The rest can choose from football, lacross, wrestling and baseball. As far as styles, if we could get all officials on the same page and USA Boxing on the same page, we could train one style from novice to international. the way it is now you box one way at club shows, another when you get the Nat GG, another when you get the USA Nat, then you have to send your kid to camp to learn International style. If the ultimate goal, is to win at the Olympic level, then that is how we should train our kids at the local level right from novices. As a coach I believe the more you simulate what you will be doing, the better your chances of doing it. I don't like velpro, and I don't think many boxer do either, but that's one more reason to get used to it early in thier carreer. I could go on all day about what's wrong, but it won'y help anything and any suggestion even good ones are worthless unless we can get them implimented. We have a new evectutive director and if he is as competant and commited as I have heard, I will support him and offer any help I can if it means putting boxing back where it belongs. The fight to revive amateure boxing's popularity in the USA may be the toughest bout any of us has had, Now we'll really find out if we are fighters.

Excellent points Hal. There is one more way in which we absolutely can not get our boxers ready for international competition and this applies to Fernando and my son. In all USA Boxing sanctioned events they are required to wear 12 oz. gloves, but in international competition they MUST wear 10 oz. gloves. It is a difference and there is no way to have them COMPETE with 10 oz gloves without INTERNATIONAL COMPETITIONS. Some people may think that is minor, but it is a critical difference. Now I know that both Fernando and Jordan did compete with 10 oz. gloves when they were lighter and boxing in the 152# or smaller weight classes in US competitions. For Fernando that may have been a few years ago. For Jordan he hasn't boxed in that small of a weight class since he was 13 (5 years ago).

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » 19 Jun 2007, 22:24

I don't know if any of you guys got the chance to see it-I watched the Russian National Championships this year and you would be surprised by the fact that as I hear USA Boxing is trying to stress a more international style; the Russian team is begining to resemble pro style more and more. There were some shocking upsets (to me at least) at the Russian Nationals, which I guess is good because it shows you they aren't picking favorites based on who's been there longer or competed for them before. At Super Heavyweight, ofr example, Islam Timurziev, who was everyone's favorite to win Russian championship again (and very likely Gold at Beijing, he was being seen as Sasha Povetkin's logical successor) lost on points in the finals to an unknown, even though he knocked down this unknown twice. I think, as odd as it may sound, if USA Boxing wants to correct it and put out a good amateur team, they're going to need more funding for one-I would say just swallow the pride and bring on trainers from Europe or the former Soviet states as advisors to the American team, guys who helped develop the juggernaut that basically is Rusboxing (the Russian amateur system) now. Just as the Soviets did in the 50's, when they brought East German trainers in to teach their guys how to be succesful and to learn from them.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 21 Jun 2007, 00:12

Kolya - you are correct in that the former Soviet Union states' boxers are boxing more like pros. They hold, wrestle, use their elbows, etc. They don't seem to play to the computer scoring system and yet they are very successful.

fenix · Post by **fenix** » 21 Jun 2007, 12:04

DaveV17 wrote:Again, I agree with Dennis, the current amateur system is flawed. At least, it is flawed to me. I can't understand how a hard right or a hard hook doesn't count more than a light jab. It only gets more cloudy for me when I see the point scoring areas of the body. How can they all be scored equally?

I still like the amateurs and I consider the experience gained fighting as an amateur to be valuable, but not all boxers can do well in that system. I suspect that under the new scoring system a lot of the famous U.S. medal winning amateurs of the past would not be medal winners today.

I think the current scoring system in amateur boxing is a over reaction to a few bad decisions. Instead of getting rid of the corrupt judges they decided to change the entire sport. Bad decision on them IMO. I find watching old amateur fights & current amateur fights is like watching 2 different sports. Thats a shame. So IMO it might be the coaches fault in the sense that the sport has changed & the US hasn't changed with it as much as other countries have. No reason to really. Its a longshot to make the Olympics & its no guarantee that you will make money as a pro if you do (unless you win a gold medal). So why not just work on your pro style if you have alot of talent so you can make some money when you get to the pros.

ABA Boxing · Post by **ABA Boxing** » 21 Jun 2007, 12:35

I dont think USA boxing has dropped in standards, its more that everyone else just got better, while the USA has stood still.

I think Eastern Europe is the dominent force at the moment, even more so than Cuba, Cuba can get it back and will surely always be a force in International Amateur Boxing.

But waiting in the shadows after the 2008 Olympics, you will see countries from Asia like China taking over, especialy in the lower weight divisions.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 21 Jun 2007, 13:36

dont think USA boxing has dropped in standards, its more that everyone else just got better, while the USA has stood still.

What do you attribute this to? Interested in your observations...

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 21 Jun 2007, 22:32

ABA Boxing wrote:I dont think USA boxing has dropped in standards, its more that everyone else just got better, while the USA has stood still.

I think Eastern Europe is the dominent force at the moment, even more so than Cuba, Cuba can get it back and will surely always be a force in International Amateur Boxing.

But waiting in the shadows after the 2008 Olympics, you will see countries from Asia like China taking over, especialy in the lower weight divisions.

Many Asian boxers did well in the '04 Olympics so I won't be surprised if they do well again in '08.

USA boxing in trouble

Do you agree or disagree with the author?

USA boxing in trouble

Re: USA boxing in trouble

blame game