Should Sugar Ray Leonard be stripped of a belt ?

Evander · Post by **Evander** » 26 Jun 2007, 18:44

How did Sugar Ray Leonard manage to win both the WBC Light Heavyweight title and the vacant WBC Super Middleweight title on the same night by defeating Donny Lalonde?

I have always been a little puzzled when it came to this.

You are either fighting at one weight or another.

Isn’t it a bit unfair that Ray Leonard gets to win the Light Heavyweight title while weighing only 165 pounds?

Even today Leonard still gets credited with winning a title in a weight class he really didn’t fight in.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 26 Jun 2007, 18:58

I agree, though it seems a bit late to do anything about it now. I wish we could go back and change some things in boxing's past.

Even the 168 belt itself, I don't know that Lalonde had any fights at 168, since he was the WBC Light Heavyweight belt holder, and Leonard had never once fought at 168... how did they get into a position to fight for a vacant title there? It's nonsense.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 26 Jun 2007, 23:08

..these belts leonard "won" are of course travesties, but i don't think anyone pays much attention to belts any more. it has always irritated me though, when i hear of leonard being a champion in "five different divisions"....but again, those of us who know this is nonsense and those who don't probably don't remember this or care much about it either way..they just like to watch boxing on tv every now and then, enjoy it and don't do any harm.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 27 Jun 2007, 09:10

It was a nonsense decision to put the 2 belts on the line like that. It was another one in the eye for the sport and another sour turn in Leonard's comeback career...

I don't see the point in taking something away like that though. Jaclem is right that these belts mean virtually nothing now (from a historical perspective). The governing bodies have, in the end, cut their own throats.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 27 Jun 2007, 09:27

Whether we like it or not, Ray Leonard, like Ali before him and Tyson and DLH since, is good for boxing. When he was fighting, I always rooted against him, and resented his immediate rise to TV sports stardom and big paydays while many others had to fight their way to big paydays and media attention. Now having said that, I have to admit that his very presence has helped the sport greatly by generating fan interest during a time when the sports popularity was on a natural decline. If there had never been a Ray Leonard, there would probably be even fewer boxing fans today.

Did he often times use his popularity and marketability to help him gain the upper hand in some of fights? Of course he did. But as previously noted, the number of “titles” that fighters win really hasn’t mattered much in the past 25 years or so, so why even bother discussing it?

Anyway, let’s get back to discussing really important historical boxing topics, like Tommy Morrison’s paralyzing punching power, great hand speed and athletic ability.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 27 Jun 2007, 15:20

Decagon wrote:Floyd Mayweather, in any case, has eclipsed Robinson's record. He won five titles - and three "championships" in my view - while Leonard won four-and-a-half and two.

Yeah, that's another thing that I've mentioned a couple of times on "current scene." No one brought any attention at all to the fact that Mayweather had tied Leonard's "record." If people want to discount the record because two of Mayweather's titles aren't legit, that's fine, but as you said, three of Leonard's titles are bullshit, especially the two we are talking about now at 168 and 175. Either the boxing community has to acknowledge Mayweather tying the record, or they have to stop talking about Leonard's record, they can't have it both ways.

The other thing that bothers me is that HBO tried to hype Oscar by calling him a "six division" champion because of the WBO belts he won at 130 and 160. Well, if that's the case, and Oscar has the record and not Leonard or Mayweather, then why didn't Hearns get credit as a five division champion along with Leonard all those years, considering Hearns won a WBO belt at 168? If WBO counts all of a sudden, then the boxing community should have acknowledged Hearns along with Leonard as holding this record, before Oscar hypothetically broke the record by winning that BS decision against Sturm and winning a belt at 160.

These are bullshit records, these belts don't mean anything, but I love the hypocrisy on top of it.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 28 Jun 2007, 00:50

Very true, but give credit where credit is due. Leonard rid the boxing world of a plodding, tripping over his own feet, can't cut the ring off, over rated southpaw, that the ignorant public thought was a real middle weight champion. For that one feat Sugar Ray Leonard should be inshrined in the universe's boxing hall of fame!!

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 28 Jun 2007, 01:01

I know....it is the only good thing Camacho ever did!!! I wasn't a big SRL fan. But Hagler was horrible. I never in a million years thought Camacho would starch SRL....but I am glad Camacho got macho for once in his life!!

I would have liked to see them fight in the mid 1980's....would have been interesting.....

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 28 Jun 2007, 01:03

Oh c'mon, Hagler was a great fighter and you could make the case he won that fight. Another questionable title for Ray.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 28 Jun 2007, 01:09

I can't really think of any time in history when two belts of two different weight classes were ever on the line---except for the last Tommy Burns and Philadelphia Jack O'Brien bout, as O'Brien was the LHW champion and Burns was the HW champion, but both men were under 176 pounds and since Burns won that fight, he could have claimed that belt as well but stated that he didnt need O'Brien's belt.

But this is a weird exception, as this is the only catch-weight fight I can ever think of that had two different belts on the line, and havent seen it duplicated since.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 28 Jun 2007, 01:13

One of Henry Armstrong's defenses was for the Lightweight and Welterweight title, that's the only other time I can think of it. There was precedent for it I suppose, but I still don't like it, under either circumstance, and Leonard and Lalonde shouldn't have been in a position to fight for the vacant 168 title to begin with.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 28 Jun 2007, 01:20

Oh c'mon, Hagler was a great fighter and you could make the case he won that fight. Another questionable title for Ray.

Naw....if you can't at least cut the ring off, then you ought not be the champion of the novice MW division.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 28 Jun 2007, 01:21

Thanks...I was thinking Armstrong as well, considering he won three different titles at three different weights and even fought for a 'title' at MW at one point in his career, while still holding the three; I just didn't know for sure that he actually had ANY of his titles on the line, when he moved up in weight class.

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 28 Jun 2007, 13:17

Evander wrote:How did Sugar Ray Leonard manage to win both the WBC Light Heavyweight title and the vacant WBC Super Middleweight title on the same night by defeating Donny Lalonde?

I have always been a little puzzled when it came to this.

You are either fighting at one weight or another.

Isn’t it a bit unfair that Ray Leonard gets to win the Light Heavyweight title while weighing only 165 pounds?

Even today Leonard still gets credited with winning a title in a weight class he really didn’t fight in.

a) isnt it a bit late?

b) I think it had something to do with them bringing in the new division at 168, but i may be wrong

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 28 Jun 2007, 13:19

yep, just checked, that was the inaugural title fight for WBC 168.... they probably wanted a hi profile champion,

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 28 Jun 2007, 14:16

Of course they made up the 168 lb divison, they knew some southpaw clown from Britian would need to have a made up title in the future, otherwise he would never be a champion of anything. If they hadn't made up the 168 lb. title then we would not have to listen to all the nonsense about Joe Calzaghe. A british "champion" of a make-believe made up weight division.

He could not beat Leonard or Lalonde on their worst days. End of story.

Flump · Post by **Flump** » 28 Jun 2007, 15:43

ringsider wrote:Of course they made up the 168 lb divison, they knew some southpaw clown from Britian would need to have a made up title in the future, otherwise he would never be a champion of anything. If they hadn't made up the 168 lb. title then we would not have to listen to all the nonsense about Joe Calzaghe. A british "champion" of a make-believe made up weight division. He could not beat Leonard or Lalonde on their worst days. End of story.

Yeah, thanks for coming chief.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 28 Jun 2007, 17:52

ringsider wrote:
Oh c'mon, Hagler was a great fighter and you could make the case he won that fight. Another questionable title for Ray.
Naw....if you can't at least cut the ring off, then you ought not be the champion of the novice MW division.

Hagler was older at that point, but he did enough that a slight majority of people who saw the fight will probably go with Hagler.

Elton John · Post by **Elton John** » 29 Jun 2007, 14:16

Decagon wrote:
ringsider wrote:Very true, but give credit where credit is due. Leonard rid the boxing world of a plodding, tripping over his own feet, can't cut the ring off, over rated southpaw, that the ignorant public thought was a real middle weight champion. For that one feat Sugar Ray Leonard should be inshrined in the universe's boxing hall of fame!!
Hector Camacho knocked him out and retired him.

Hector always comes on strong whenever he's raping chicks.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 02 Jul 2007, 13:59

At best Ray was a 3 weight world champ and the middleweight title he fought for without even earning the right to do so.
He was never a 168 or above fighter. All publicity and money
No way are they legitimate wins and Lalonde is hardly
championship material. Regardless, Ray was simply superb at Welter

Should Sugar Ray Leonard be stripped of a belt ?

Should Sugar Ray Leonard be stripped of a belt ?

Re: Should Sugar Ray Leonard be stripped of a belt ?