Joe Gans vs Benny Leonard

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 25 Jun 2007, 23:23

Carpenter, obviously, meant by knockout in this case the situation, where a fighter was put down and did not rise at the count of ten. Clean knockout, not the referee stopping the bout to save one of the fighters.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 26 Jun 2007, 02:39

Sure, he was.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 26 Jun 2007, 04:17

Please, enlighten me about the solidness of chin of Leonard, who tested it and with what results?

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 26 Jun 2007, 05:32

barry wrote:Couldn't have said it better Buzz...in fact in two years a person can write two books on both Leonard and Gans.

But that's nothing...on any given night either fighter could beat the other and be number one...same thing pretty much goes for all of the top ten lightweights of all-time...on any given night any one of the ten could beat number one...serious historians understand and realize this while others waste hours with nonsense.

Hell, two years from now I might pick Duran over Leonard and Gans and then two years later it might be Leonard again! Now if I had listed someone like, oh I don't know, Phillip Holliday at number one then you might have something, but everyone knows that Leonard, Gans and Duran are pretty much in a tie for number one.

What I'm wondering is who has such a sad life that they spend all day seaching back and forth through years of threads thinking that he can bust someone on something...talk about a waste of time...is life that bad Grimm!!!

Barry's right that the greats can all beat one another on a given night. All we can argue about is who is most likely to beat who on that night.

I do think Grimm's question is a good one though, and not necessarily critical. If an enlightened member of the board changes their mind then on an issue then that's of interest to me.

Barry, how close/far is Whittaker from your trinity at 135?

barry · Post by **barry** » 30 Jun 2007, 08:47

Whitaker is right at the top! I've never compiled an all-time top ten, or top twenty lists for the lightweight division, but I would likely have Whitaker in the top 5. Whitaker had the best defense of any lightweight, but his light hitting, in my view, does not allow him to be along with Leonard, Gans and Duran...all three of whom could put an opponent to sleep in round one as well as round 15. If Whitaker had carried a big punch then it very likely would be a toss-up of four lightweights claiming the number one spot instead of the three, but the lack of power in his punches greatly hinders Whitaker, but defensively...none were better than Whitaker!

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 30 Jun 2007, 11:06

Both Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano were floored a number of times in their careers, I've never seen anyone here dare call Marciano 'chinny'. To say Leonard had a weak chin is simply laughable!. He fought at a time when fighters werent pampered... and the guys that floored him like Mitchell were murderous punchers. So he lost some of his early fughts by ko... he was 15 to 17 at this time for Christsakes!!.
As for Harry Carpenter being a moron, he was one of the world top boxing commentators for over 40 years and saw more fights than most of the people on this forum can even dream about and certainly has forgotten more about the game than Decagon is ever likely to learn in his lifetime!...

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 30 Jun 2007, 12:42

Who would win between Gans and Leonard is a toss up. Along with Duran, they were the greatest lightweights of all time.
Leonard certainly could take a punch. Sure, he was knocked down and hurt a few times, but that is over the course of 20 years and 200 fights. He was knocked out only 4 times, 3 in his first few months as a professional, and then 20 years later in his very last fight.
He had to have had to had a very good chin to do this.

barry · Post by **barry** » 30 Jun 2007, 14:16

>>>He had to have had to had a very good chin to do this<<<

Leonard did have a good chin...a very good chin. The knockouts that Leonard suffered were when he was simply a kid just barely out of the adolescent years at 15 and barely 16 years of age and then at the very end of his career against McLarnin, which Jimmy McLarnin was one of the most murderous punching lightweights of the 20s and 30s. Unlike scoring dozens of meaningless knockouts against very weak opposition, McLarnin scored his knockouts against a high caliber of fighter, which is why he has a rather low career KO percentage, but had McLarnin chose to face a slew of record-padding fights then he would have a high KO percentage similar to others who faced off against record-padders, so Leonard being KO'd by McLarnin was certainly nothing to be ashamed of and neither was a 15 year old kid being knocked out by the likes of Frankie Fleming and Joe Shugrue...Fleming was a hard-hitter also.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 30 Jun 2007, 16:58

Decagon wrote:Or a good defense.

Even a good defence wont save you against the type of opposition Leonard faced if he had had a weak chin!. To base the strength of his chin on results at the begining of his career is just stupidity. Are you saying that he was fully formed as a man and a fighter at the age of 15??. Even if you have as little knowledge of his career that it seems you have you could at least try and use some common sense!.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 30 Jun 2007, 17:02

Look at Henry Armstrongs career if you want to see an example of how a fighter can go from mediocrity to greatness as he learns and develops... and he was koed in his debut, ...did he have a weak chin as well??.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 01 Jul 2007, 14:08

barry wrote:Whitaker is right at the top! I've never compiled an all-time top ten, or top twenty lists for the lightweight division, but I would likely have Whitaker in the top 5. Whitaker had the best defense of any lightweight, but his light hitting, in my view, does not allow him to be along with Leonard, Gans and Duran...all three of whom could put an opponent to sleep in round one as well as round 15. If Whitaker had carried a big punch then it very likely would be a toss-up of four lightweights claiming the number one spot instead of the three, but the lack of power in his punches greatly hinders Whitaker, but defensively...none were better than Whitaker!

I pick Ike Williams, Joe Brown and Carlos Ortiz over Sweet Pea at lightweight any time.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 01 Jul 2007, 14:14

elmersalsa wrote:
barry wrote:Whitaker is right at the top! I've never compiled an all-time top ten, or top twenty lists for the lightweight division, but I would likely have Whitaker in the top 5. Whitaker had the best defense of any lightweight, but his light hitting, in my view, does not allow him to be along with Leonard, Gans and Duran...all three of whom could put an opponent to sleep in round one as well as round 15. If Whitaker had carried a big punch then it very likely would be a toss-up of four lightweights claiming the number one spot instead of the three, but the lack of power in his punches greatly hinders Whitaker, but defensively...none were better than Whitaker!

I pick Ike Williams, Joe Brown and Carlos Ortiz over Sweet Pea at lightweight any time.

I agree, Sweet Pea would probably make the top 15 of my list but I think his lack of power would hinder him greatly against many of the all time lightweights... you cant win fights on defence alone...

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 01 Jul 2007, 14:53

He threw far more punches than Sweet Pea though and kept his opponents under terrific pressure. I'm not saying Sweet wasnt a great fighter, I'm just saying that I wouldnt rate him as high as top 5 all time at 135... after all we're talking about probably the most talent packed division of them all pound for pound...

barry · Post by **barry** » 02 Jul 2007, 14:15

Whitaker's defensive skills give him a shot against any one, but I like Ike Williams ahead of Whitaker as well.

Willie Pep is considered by many to be the greatest featherweight, I rank him high, but not number one, and Whitaker is often mentioned as the fighter nearest Willie Pep as there has ever been in defensive skill. Not having a vicious punch never hurt Pep, nor did it ever hurt Greb. Now if some of the hard-punchers that they fought had been able to simply overwhelm guys like Whitaker then it would be evident that lake of power hurts...but Whitaker boxed the ears off of most all big punchers he faced...Hell, he even lasted through Trinidad's vicious punches and Whitaker was never really anything more than a lightweight and Trinidad hit harder than most middleweights!

His lack of power could hurt his ranking, but in actual competition against other greats it has no bearing on Whitaker as he stood with the best of punchers and beat most of them!

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 02 Jul 2007, 14:25

Whitakers problems would come against boxers who had speed and skill and also power... Gans, Leonard, Canzoneri, Ross, Armstrong, Williams, Joe Brown, Carlos Ortiz, Laguna and Buchanan, Dejesus and obviously Duran all come to mind... and in most cases these guys fought better and deeper opposition at 135... Sweet Pea is up there with the best but top 5 is too high imo...

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 02 Jul 2007, 15:26

I have him at #6 behind Duran,Leonard,Gans,Armstrong and Ross. I have him just ahead of Welsh,McFarland,Ambers,Williams,Ortiz,and Brown.
I'm sure some people would have guys like Angott,Mandell,Canzoneri,Jack,and Montgomery in the mix as well.

I think Duran,Gans and Leonard have to be 1-2-3 in some order but after that there are a lot of close calls.

Is #6 about right for Whitaker?

Knucklez · Post by **Knucklez** » 02 Jul 2007, 18:47

Ambling Alp wrote:I have him at #6 behind Duran,Leonard,Gans,Armstrong and Ross. I have him just ahead of Welsh,McFarland,Ambers,Williams,Ortiz,and Brown.
I'm sure some people would have guys like Angott,Mandell,Canzoneri,Jack,and Montgomery in the mix as well.

I think Duran,Gans and Leonard have to be 1-2-3 in some order but after that there are a lot of close calls.

Is #6 about right for Whitaker?

I'm not completely sold on Ortiz to be honest.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 03 Jul 2007, 05:19

I'd question Arguello being ahead of Barney Ross

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 03 Jul 2007, 07:25

This is one of those gem threads that both entertain and enlighten. It stands on it's own as a pretty good read at this point.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 07 Jul 2007, 23:42

Decagon wrote:1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Ike Williams
6. Joe Gans
7. Alexis Arguello
8. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
9. Julio Cesar Chavez
10. Barney Ross
11. Carlos Ortiz
12. Jack Blackburn
13. Beau Jack
14. Bob Montgomery
15. Shane Mosley
16. Lou Ambers
17. Tony Canzoneri
18. Dave Holly
19. Antonio Cervantes
20. Esteban DeJesus

Whitaker is too high at 135. What the hell is Antonio Cervantes doing in the list Dec?

Arguello, Chavez and Mayweather to me are jr lightweight greats, not lightweight greats

Joe Gans should be at #2 or #3... period.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 08 Jul 2007, 11:34

Decagon wrote:I don't rank junior divisions. Antonio Cervantes is on the list because I thought I got all of the 140-pounders off the list, but missed him. Change the last two to:

19. Esteban DeJesus
20. Lew Jenkins

How can you justify ignoring all the great fighters that have fought in the 122, 130, 140, and 154 divisions??.... I suppose Wilfredo Gomez for instance never existed??... and to rate Cervantes only as a lightweight is plain ludicrous!!...

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Jul 2007, 16:14

Well why not a Super Lightweight vs a Jr Welter? I've never figured out how to prioritize the "tweener" divisions....are they Junior to the class ahead or Super to their smaller cousins? I've leaned in the opposite direction of Decagon.

In fact they are even described differently depending on the ranking organization. Some choosing jr vs super. I noticed that Kostya always reffered to himself as a Super Lightweight Champion vs a Wimpy Welterweight Champ.

I would think most boxers would not want to hear the "jr" descriptor.

Is there really a way to settle this?

Minotauro · Post by **Minotauro** » 08 Jul 2007, 19:27

Decagon wrote:1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Ike Williams
6. Joe Gans
7. Alexis Arguello
8. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
9. Julio Cesar Chavez
10. Barney Ross
11. Carlos Ortiz
12. Jack Blackburn
13. Beau Jack
14. Bob Montgomery
15. Shane Mosley
16. Lou Ambers
17. Tony Canzoneri
18. Dave Holly
19. Antonio Cervantes
20. Esteban DeJesus

Why is Cervantes on that list? Also Joe Gans should be higher there is no doubt he top five I have him at two, also why no Ken Buchanan?

barry · Post by **barry** » 08 Jul 2007, 19:55

While I agree with Dec in only using the traditional 8 weight classes to put together a list, but I can also see where it would very much put fighters like Kostya Tszyu and Aaron Pryor at a major disadvantage as they fought entirely at jr, welterweight and even Wilfredo Gomez who would rate well at featherweight and he would be among the very best at bantamweight, but which division to pick...the upper, or lower weight class?

The junior and super weight classes have hurt boxing overall, which is why I chose to use the traditional eight divisions, but it is hard to fairly rate guys like Wilfredo Gomez, or Mike McCallum!

barry · Post by **barry** » 09 Jul 2007, 17:35

Hopkins was more of a natural light heavyweight than Roy Jones ever was. Hopkins started out his career at light heavyweight in 1988 and then after losing two years he trained down to 160 by 1991, which is a lot of the reason that he looks like a small middleweight because he simply trained down to where he had little to no body fat at all. He looks very solid at 175 and more natural in my opinion.

Packey McFarland was another who could be mixed in with Pryor, Tszyu and the others at 140 as he was just barely too big for lightweight and just too small for welterweight, but fit it perfect at 140. But honestly I prefer to use only the traditional 8 classes. Though McFarland did hold one of the best middleweights of the era, Mike Gibbons, to a draw, but then again Gibbons was like McFarland as his best fighting weight was between welter and middle...jr. middle so to speak.

Joe Gans vs Benny Leonard

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