Ken Norton vs David Tua. What If?

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 04 Jul 2007, 12:26

Who wins the Ken Norton of the mid 70's or the Tua of the mid 90's? Would the big left hook of Tua get Kenny out of there in quick time? Or would Norton be able to survive the early onslaught to outlast and outwork The Tuaman?

David Tua.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=4343

Ken Norton.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000168

tagjohnson · Post by **tagjohnson** » 04 Jul 2007, 17:54

Tua wins by ko in the first. No question in my mind. Ken is one of my all-time favorite fighters but he fought three big punchers in his career and got blasted by all three. Ken was simply too easy to get to if you had a big punch. And when he got hurt he went to the ropes, that cost him against Shaver, Foreman, and Cooney and would against Tua. I cannot think of a single variable in a Norton/Tua that would lead to anything but a very quick Tua win. Ken shuffles out, Tua comes out bombing, Norton is driven to the ropes and that's it, lights out.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 04 Jul 2007, 18:02

Well you would have to sum up Kenny Norton as a John Ruiz peer. I just can't go there....not sure Tua had quite the punch of Foreman or Frazier either. I have to give this some deep thought.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 04 Jul 2007, 20:09

No fair giving the answer out that fast.

Victor*KC · Post by **Victor*KC** » 04 Jul 2007, 23:50

Well Tua in his prime even though he was easy to outbox was very aggressive also had a good workrate to go with that and 1 punchpower could KO you in Round 1 or 12.. Norton fought a bad fight against Shavers dumb strategy.. I do think Tua can reach that chin and KO him..

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 05 Jul 2007, 00:32

Norton always froze against big punchers. Prime Tua was a quick starter.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 05 Jul 2007, 07:33

I do recall when he arrived on the scene that people saw him as a bigger version of Mike Tyson. Ike was a good fight one I thought he might have won actually, and I will always be grateful to him for the Ruiz pummeling. But based on his performance with Lewis it's hard to imagine Norton being taken out early. Norton was a good boxer and I think he would have a good chance of putting it in the hands of the judges.....I don't see Tua out pointing Kenny. I'd put my money on Norton in a decision I think.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 05 Jul 2007, 12:53

Senya13 wrote:Norton always froze against big punchers. Prime Tua was a quick starter.

Maybe. Eddie Futch stated that a number of times in interviews over the years and who am I to argue with the late Eddie Futch!! But when Norton fought Shavers and Cooney you could also argue Norton was on the slide anyway. (more so with Cooney) and getting battered by Foreman could happen to almost anyone.

Just a thought.

Victor*KC · Post by **Victor*KC** » 05 Jul 2007, 13:33

Buzz Tua was not in his prime when he faced Lewis.. and Dec Oleg is a much more durable and tougher fighter than Norton..,.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 05 Jul 2007, 15:01

Victor*KC wrote:Buzz Tua was not in his prime when he faced Lewis.. and Dec Oleg is a much more durable and tougher fighter than Norton..,.

He had quite a short prime wouldnt you say? You can track it down to a few fights it seems. Do you think the Tua that fought Ike would have fared better agains Lewis? You don't see it as a styles issue vs a prime issue? Maybe so. I was leaning toward styles vs prime.

Victor*KC · Post by **Victor*KC** » 08 Jul 2007, 13:43

BoxBuzz wrote:
Victor*KC wrote:Buzz Tua was not in his prime when he faced Lewis.. and Dec Oleg is a much more durable and tougher fighter than Norton..,.
He had quite a short prime wouldnt you say? You can track it down to a few fights it seems. Do you think the Tua that fought Ike would have fared better agains Lewis? You don't see it as a styles issue vs a prime issue? Maybe so. I was leaning toward styles vs prime.

Yes I do he was more hungry when he fought Ike when he fought Lewis he was overweight and no loger fighting with the same Heart he only fought Lewis to get paid he didn't really try to get on the inside he perferred to stay on the outside and eat jabs all day,,

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 08 Jul 2007, 13:54

Victor*KC wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:
Victor*KC wrote:Buzz Tua was not in his prime when he faced Lewis.. and Dec Oleg is a much more durable and tougher fighter than Norton..,.
He had quite a short prime wouldnt you say? You can track it down to a few fights it seems. Do you think the Tua that fought Ike would have fared better agains Lewis? You don't see it as a styles issue vs a prime issue? Maybe so. I was leaning toward styles vs prime.
Yes I do he was more hungry when he fought Ike when he fought Lewis he was overweight and no loger fighting with the same Heart he only fought Lewis to get paid he didn't really try to get on the inside he perferred to stay on the outside and eat jabs all day,,

I know I may be in the minority here but I actually enjoy watching Lewis vs Tua. Many here call it a boring fight but I enjoy watching Lewis putting on a fine display on how to fight a short, pressure fighter.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Jul 2007, 14:00

Tua is always going to have problems with the greats due to his weak defense. I have no quarrel with the way the sim came out here. Though perhaps the SIM underestimates his chin a bit. I think David may have just short of the "freeze power" that was proven to do the trick with Norton.

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... highlight=

Victor*KC · Post by **Victor*KC** » 08 Jul 2007, 16:23

BoxBuzz wrote:Tua is always going to have problems with the greats due to his weak defense. I have no quarrel with the way the sim came out here. Though perhaps the SIM underestimates his chin a bit. I think David may have just short of the "freeze power" that was proven to do the trick with Norton.

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... highlight=

Tua had a very good chin anyone who Can take Lewis and Ike' shots at will can definately take a punch..

Victor*KC · Post by **Victor*KC** » 08 Jul 2007, 16:24

KOJOE90 wrote:
Victor*KC wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote: He had quite a short prime wouldnt you say? You can track it down to a few fights it seems. Do you think the Tua that fought Ike would have fared better agains Lewis? You don't see it as a styles issue vs a prime issue? Maybe so. I was leaning toward styles vs prime.
Yes I do he was more hungry when he fought Ike when he fought Lewis he was overweight and no loger fighting with the same Heart he only fought Lewis to get paid he didn't really try to get on the inside he perferred to stay on the outside and eat jabs all day,,
I know I may be in the minority here but I actually enjoy watching Lewis vs Tua. Many here call it a boring fight but I enjoy watching Lewis putting on a fine display on how to fight a short, pressure fighter.

Well part of the reason I think is the fight was very one sided..

Minotauro · Post by **Minotauro** » 08 Jul 2007, 19:19

Tua would win early his style is terrible for Norton. Look at Foreman, Shavers and Cooney. Tua would just use the same strategy.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Jul 2007, 20:03

Minotauro wrote:Tua would win early his style is terrible for Norton. Look at Foreman, Shavers and Cooney. Tua would just use the same strategy.

I can't accept that Norton would perform about the way John Ruiz did if faced with the TuaMan. Just does not compute. Although Norton and Ruiz would now be an interesting combination to run a sim on.

so here it is....

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... highlight=

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 08 Jul 2007, 20:57

Tua is so over-rated in fantasy fights it is ridiculous.

His work-rate sucked, even in his 'prime'. His defense was awful . . he was completely one dimensional.

Norton wins this with the jab alone. Norton would have little trouble avoiding the much shorter Tua's hooks. Norton was far superior to Fres Oquendo, Daneel Nicholson, and John Ruiz.

Look at Maskaev . . he got creamed by Whitaker and friggin' Corey Sanders.

But he had little trouble outboxing Tua in his 12TH PROFESSIONAL FIGHT until he got caught late.

But Norton, who at his best only got knocked out by a prime George Foreman, loses to David Tua in the 1st?

Some of this deductive reasoning is bogus.

And Eddie Futch also predicted his protoge Duane Bobick, a good puncher, would defeat Norton as Norton "froze" against punchers.

See how that one turned out. Futch was great but it doesn't mean he was always right. Norton after the fight stated "I guess Eddie doesn't know me as well as he thought he did"

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Jul 2007, 21:55

dempseyfire wrote:Tua is so over-rated in fantasy fights it is ridiculous.

His work-rate sucked, even in his 'prime'. His defense was awful . . he was completely one dimensional.

Norton wins this with the jab alone. Norton would have little trouble avoiding the much shorter Tua's hooks. Norton was far superior to Fres Oquendo, Daneel Nicholson, and John Ruiz.

Look at Maskaev . . he got creamed by Whitaker and friggin' Corey Sanders.

But he had little trouble outboxing Tua in his 12TH PROFESSIONAL FIGHT until he got caught late.

But Norton, who at his best only got knocked out by a prime George Foreman, loses to David Tua in the 1st?

Some of this deductive reasoning is bogus.

And Eddie Futch also predicted his protoge Duane Bobick, a good puncher, would defeat Norton as Norton "froze" against punchers.

See how that one turned out. Futch was great but it doesn't mean he was always right. Norton after the fight stated "I guess Eddie doesn't know me as well as he thought he did"

I think it's just because people are thinking that this is apples and apples because they were both highly rated at some point. But the difference in talent between the two eras is pretty huge. I mean would Tua be a blip on the radar screen in that era? I'd say probably yes but a pretty small blip..

After some thought...he might be a blimp on the radar screen....like maybe Jumbo Cummings.

Diamond WEAPON · Post by **Diamond WEAPON** » 09 Jul 2007, 03:03

BoxBuzz wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:Tua is so over-rated in fantasy fights it is ridiculous.

His work-rate sucked, even in his 'prime'. His defense was awful . . he was completely one dimensional.

Norton wins this with the jab alone. Norton would have little trouble avoiding the much shorter Tua's hooks. Norton was far superior to Fres Oquendo, Daneel Nicholson, and John Ruiz.

Look at Maskaev . . he got creamed by Whitaker and friggin' Corey Sanders.

But he had little trouble outboxing Tua in his 12TH PROFESSIONAL FIGHT until he got caught late.

But Norton, who at his best only got knocked out by a prime George Foreman, loses to David Tua in the 1st?

Some of this deductive reasoning is bogus.

And Eddie Futch also predicted his protoge Duane Bobick, a good puncher, would defeat Norton as Norton "froze" against punchers.

See how that one turned out. Futch was great but it doesn't mean he was always right. Norton after the fight stated "I guess Eddie doesn't know me as well as he thought he did"
I think it's just because people are thinking that this is apples and apples because they were both highly rated at some point. But the difference in talent between the two eras is pretty huge. I mean would Tua be a blip on the radar screen in that era? I'd say probably yes but a pretty small blip..

After some thought...he might be a blimp on the radar screen....like maybe Jumbo Cummings.

I disagree, I think way too many people deify the 70's as if no other era could possibly touch it, there's too much nostalgia for too many people there. The 90's were one of HW boxing's best eras and although not quite on the level as the 70's they were pretty damn close given all the competition there was. I like to be more realistic about the 70's and I think Tua would've destroyed Norton not quite as quickly as Ruiz, but within the first 6 nontheless. Norton outboxes Tua early but eventually gets caught with combos and put out, Tyson would likely do it in similar but quicker fashion since he was more varied in ability.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 09 Jul 2007, 07:05

Anyone who calls Tua's defense awful, should watch more of his fights. It's Earnie Shavers who had an awful defense and was completely one-dimensional (which doesn't stop some people from praising him and some fighters' victories over him). David Tua at times actually thought more about his defense, than he should have, considering he had a very solid chin.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 09 Jul 2007, 07:23

Senya...I suppose I understand this statement, but his defense seemed passive....that is he simply stayed out of range. But when he was infighting you don't see much in the way of shoulder rolling or effective blocking IMHO. James Toney he's not. Maybe it's simply due to the fact that he was made of granite.....but I don't think he blocked a lot of shots....he seemed, in my opinion to simply be willing to accept the incoming for his chance at landing.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 09 Jul 2007, 07:46

On the contrary, when he's in close you see him cover the head with one hand, and the body with another, moving his head and upper body a lot (although he does get hit still, but he slips, blocks or rolls with a lot of punches too) between throwing short hooks to the body and head. More or less prime Tua that is, I'm speaking about.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 09 Jul 2007, 08:56

Senya13 wrote:On the contrary, when he's in close you see him cover the head with one hand, and the body with another, moving his head and upper body a lot (although he does get hit still, but he slips, blocks or rolls with a lot of punches too) between throwing short hooks to the body and head. More or less prime Tua that is, I'm speaking about.

Once again I understand what your saying because he would go into a sort of Ken Norton style at times....and he would do the other things you mention....however the word I should have used was "effective" blocking" he would go through the motions but would still be hit. He had the idea but in my eyes he just didn't have it down effectively. ONce again maybe because the guy was pretty much impervious to being bothered by the incoming.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 09 Jul 2007, 09:32

Tua would move his head and upper body for 10 second intervals after Duva screamed at him for 10 minutes, and then go back to stalking around flat-footed looking for a KO shot.

And there is more to "bobbing and weaving" than just moving your head. You need to have an effective judgement of timing and move your feet coming in in order to place counters to the body and head. Dempsey understood it, Frazier understood it, Tyson understood it. Tua . . . .not so much.

Ken Norton vs David Tua. What If?

Ken Norton vs David Tua. What If?

No contest