O2 show ticket sales, very poor

Tony Lumb · Post by **Tony Lumb** » 09 Jul 2007, 14:10

Captain Hook wrote:Like wrestling you'd have had to have got Eubank and Benn together before a fight to go through their lines and practice their put downs...

That bad blood was real, you couldn't fake that....

The point I was somewhat alluding to above was that there used to be so much more improvisation in wrestling. There were no scripts, the booker (writer/matchmaker) would just say you've got 5 minutes interview time, go out there and do it, and the wrestler would have to improvise an interview. There was SO much more creativity.

As a huge fan of literature and language, the old promos where guys would come out with compelling, entertaining, engaging BELIEVABLE interviews, off the cuff, is an incredible art.

But now, yes, you have roid monkeys reading scripted lines, ridiculously far fetched storylines and bad acting. I can't defend what wrestling IS, but i'll always defend what wrestling WAS.

I wish Boxing would encourage the fighters to do more to promote themselves and their fights. Say what you will about Carl Froch, but my god he's entertaining. And who doesn't think there would be added spice in a fight with Calzaghe because of what Froch has had to say? The belief that Froch (just as an example) is doing a disservice to boxing, giving it a bad image, is misguided in my view.

Oh, and because he was mentioned earlier, i wouldn't include Naz in this. He was just a tosser.

Tony Lumb · Post by **Tony Lumb** » 09 Jul 2007, 14:11

jonp wrote:
J wrote:Aah but wrestling masqerades as a sport indicating that there is some kind of fair contest, which we know doesnt happen in wrestling and all the
contests are rigged.

Theatre doesnt pretend to be anything it isnt.
You think wrsetling is pretending to real
They have got leprachorns,boogiemen,deadmen,they have explosions and baseball bats in matches.
This is purely entertainment i realy dont think it trys to fool anyone that its a real sport.

But it was better when it did.

Albert · Post by **Albert** » 09 Jul 2007, 14:56

F rank W arren puts on one of them bills which should please most boxing fans yet it has to be argued most of the fans are shunning it. I suppose some will argue that 5,000 plus is a good crowd but when you are putting on Khan who is a big ticket seller, Mitchell who is meant to be selling loads of tickets in London and on top of that Skelton v Sprott 5,000 or so tickets has to be very dissapointing in anyones mind. Don't forget Sprott and Skelton have shifted their fair of tickets in the past so F rankW arren must be annoyed and searching for reasons why this show has not sold out.

On reading some of the posts on this thread it seems the Arena was only set up in the first place for 10,000 people which I think is a bit negative in the first place, when you have UFC doing 11,000 tickets and they have nearly 2 months to sell out their show in the same Arena. UFC will be hoping for a near 20,000 sell out for the show.

So what is going wrong? plain and simple, the Warren card is a very good one with some good fights and if UFC wasn't around I don't suppose many people would be saying too much about how many tickets etc etc are being sold. But I honestly think it comes down to the boxing promoters not only having to do the obvious and that is to put on decent fights in the first place, but they can no longer take things for granted, they have to be prepared to do some dough on promoting the event in the media whether it be magazines, internet or TV and in addition them posters have to be put up everywhere possible.

Boxing promoters now have to earn their money even more than before, it is not just a matter of putting some fights on, they have to get their salesmen heads on and get that advertising budet bursting at the seams to the point the accountant and bank manager have heart failures.

boxingchatter · Post by **boxingchatter** » 09 Jul 2007, 15:45

Fwank has ripped us off too many times - say hi to Bobby Gunn for us - and now even though he's putting on good shows for the first time since his partnership with Don King circa 1996 the fans won't come out for him.

Hey Fwank - right back at ya pal!!!

beagleboy · Post by **beagleboy** » 09 Jul 2007, 15:47

d wrote:
beagleboy wrote:
d wrote:I think over the years, it's always been hard to sell shows in june/july.
People just haven't got the surplus cash.
Summer holidays will always have preference to boxing shows when it comes to deciding where the cash goes.
Look at the shows that have been recently.. only a few hundred at the last couple main title shows..i would guess about 7000 at the 02 come fight night will be a good turnout for mid july, not to mention there is another show the week after.
Dave Coldwell seems to have become the official apologist for FW on here.
Perhaps he's after Boxingchat's job
Not really.
Just stating how it seems to be at this time of year.
Look at the other promotions around, we've all struggled at the june/july time of year so figures of 7000 obviously aren't great in terms of the quality of the show, but when you consider the time of year and yes, the ufc competion and hols then its not as bad as it could be.
Thats all i mean.

Hats off to all the promoters who have done a show in this period, it's giving boxers work and they all know its a big risk financially at this time of year..

Or you could say you're just burrowing your tongue in Fwank's ginger starfish again

boxingchatter · Post by **boxingchatter** » 09 Jul 2007, 15:59

UFC seems to have bugger all problems selling 9,000 tickets (sell out) in June and more or less selling out o2 in July even though the show's not til September!

If only Dana Wite was into boxing... he's run the allegedlies and Maloneies out of town...!

101boxing · Post by **101boxing** » 10 Jul 2007, 08:15

~ MIKEE ~ wrote:
101boxing wrote:
~ MIKEE ~ wrote: holds 20000 tho - you book big venues in the expectation of filling them
not necessarily. the o2 is an exciting new venue, and it was they who approached FW re putting boxing on.

you also have to consider the fact that any sport this time of year is going to struggle with Wimbledon, Silverstone GP and all the footy transfers that never were or will be.

5-7 K people is a good draw for this time of year.
not disagreeing, if they approiached him then obv he does not care so much (if at all), but surely given as you say the time of year, would it not be better held somewhere you can fill - better atmosphere maybe?

the atmosphere in a half full MEN has been excellent in the past, and this will be no different. i assume, after 25 of promoting, FW knows what he is doing

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » 10 Jul 2007, 10:49

Remove your tongue from the guy's arse for God's sake, you're like a broken record....

Revere a man who half sells the MEN?

He wasn't half-selling it when he had ticket sellers like Hamed and Hatton....and after the Joe debacle in Cardiff a lot of people aren't so confident in his ability

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 10 Jul 2007, 11:17

boxingchatter wrote:UFC seems to have bugger all problems selling 9,000 tickets (sell out) in June and more or less selling out o2 in July even though the show's not til September!

If only Dana Wite was into boxing... he's run the allegedlies and Maloneies out of town...!

The thing is though, MMA fighters aren't boxers. The difference seems to be, that in general, the MMA guys all want to face off against one another.

I would suggest this is partly because unbeaten records are rare in MMA, where a contest can produce upsets pretty regularly given the nature of the sport, where you can turn a fight with a choke hold, or other submission despite being battered senseless beforehand, whereas in boxing one punch turnaround KO's are very rare comparatively speaking.

MMA guys also don't command the sort of paydays boxers do. I'm sure Khan is earning more than the majority of the MMA guys oustide of the top established stars.

UFC in particular is the top brand if you like, and it can afford to spend a lot of money on advertising as it is being heavily bankrolled in order to take some of boxing's market share.

This bit is from Wikipedia.

The UFC broke the pay-per-view industry's all-time records for a single year of business, generating over $222,766,000 in revenue during 2006, surpassing WWE and boxing. The UFC grossed more revenue in 2006 on PPV than any promotion in history.

There are definetly lessons to be learnt from UFC, however, I predict that they will soon encounter problems, when established stars start demanding massive pay to take on the best fighters, then the economics are going to start shifting.

boxingchatter · Post by **boxingchatter** » 10 Jul 2007, 11:56

I'm not so sure that's true. If Fwank doesn't pay a fighter what he wants they just leave and go elsewhere (hello Naz and Ricky) but if Tito Ortiz doesn't get what he wants - tough! The UFC is the only MMA group making money and there's no leverage for the fighter to negotiate with.

That's bad for the fighter - good for the fans because if Ortiz doesn't want to fight the best he can just head down to the jobcentre!

And Fwank can "afford" to spend on adverts. It isn't like the big advert god in the sky was granted UFC £100000000000000000s to spend - they are spending to est themsevles as No.1 fight night in UK and Warren is not.

hitman_hatton1 · Post by **hitman_hatton1** » 10 Jul 2007, 15:42

warren says there going very fast on here.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k4wiPY6cf ... er&search=

thespy · Post by **thespy** » 10 Jul 2007, 15:56

hitman_hatton1 wrote:warren says there going very fast on here.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k4wiPY6cf ... er&search=

People are not fan of him looking at the comments section in the video......

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 10 Jul 2007, 16:25

Does saying a little birdie justify this unfounded rumour?

thepocketrocket · Post by **thepocketrocket** » 10 Jul 2007, 16:40

Well no-one has denied that ticket sales are slow...that Warren interview was from weeks ago!!

So yes, its justified when you dont want to name names

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 10 Jul 2007, 16:44

Maybe because no one has asked about the ticket sales?

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 11 Jul 2007, 03:42

Tony Lumb wrote:
TerribleTerry wrote:
Tony Lumb wrote: I tried to get tickets for the September UFC show the DAY they went on sale and the cheapest tickets left were £100.

Minotauro Nogueira is on the Brazilian amateur boxing team and was hoping to qualify for the Olympics.

For me, to say MMA is far removed from Pro Wrestling is a little naive. An argument could be made that they're both essentially the same, with the same tools used to promote and build, the only difference being one is worked. In fact, to say BOXING is far removed from pro wrestling is debatable, the record-breaking De La Hoya v Mayweather match was pro wrestling 101.
You are talking about promotion and hype there Tony, whereas I was referring to it in terms of sporting purity.

Pro Wrestling, to me, is purile nonsence for teenagers and kids. I genarally view any adult who enjoys it with a degree of suspicion..

MMA, however is a real sport, requiring real skills where the result is not predetermined. A million miles away from 'ladder matches' and 'bra and panty' matches (my personal fave.)

Also you have the wrong Nogueira there mate - it is his bro, who was recently put to sleep by the rampant Sokoudjou, who is on the Brazilian Olympic boxing team..

Also Tony - tip for future UFC cards - join their free mailing list and you will get access to tickets 2 days before they go on general sale.

Thats how I bagged my sweet £25 tixs

I know Minotauro has trained with the Cuban amateur team, I may be wrong about him being on the Brazilian team.

"Pro Wrestling, to me, is purile nonsence for teenagers and kids. I genarally view any adult who enjoys it with a degree of suspicion.. "

If we're using the WWE as an example, i find it hard to argue with you. I still watch it, but the magic is gone. I would, however, dispute that opinion with regards to classic old-school wrestling, pre 1985 or so when McMahon monopolised the business and turned it into a steroid-filled cartoon.

And to the guy who said Ali got his schtick from Gorgeous George - that's what is often said, and oft reported, but I believe it was actually Classy Freddie Blassie "The Hollywood Fashion Plate" who was actually more Ali's era, Gorgeous George was a few years before Ali would've watched.

£25 UFC tickets?? You ***~!

Re Noguiera, it is the smaller of the twin brothers that is the more accomplished boxer. Antonio Rogerio Nogueira. He has won gold at the Pan-Am Games I believe.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 11 Jul 2007, 07:11

boxingchatter wrote:I'm not so sure that's true. If Fwank doesn't pay a fighter what he wants they just leave and go elsewhere (hello Naz and Ricky) but if Tito Ortiz doesn't get what he wants - tough! The UFC is the only MMA group making money and there's no leverage for the fighter to negotiate with.

That's bad for the fighter - good for the fans because if Ortiz doesn't want to fight the best he can just head down to the jobcentre!

And Fwank can "afford" to spend on adverts. It isn't like the big advert god in the sky was granted UFC £100000000000000000s to spend - they are spending to est themsevles as No.1 fight night in UK and Warren is not.

Geezer, UFC is bankrolled by bloody Time Warner, the second biggest media company in the frigging world! You're talking cobblers if you think that Sports Network as an entity can possibly compete in marketing spend on an equal footing.

Where I would say UFC have really stolen a march however, is in their presentation and packaging, they've looked at pro wrestling, and taken some of the elements of it's marketing and applied it to their product, which unlike wrestling is real violence, not cartoon violence.

It's not just UFC which have done this, it's many of the MMA organisations.

Boxing promotions by and large lack the razzamatazz and hoopla, some may say that's a good thing, and I agree to an extent, but in securing the next generation of fight fans, I think concessions have to be made. The older more dyed in the wool fans will tolerate the promotional glitz if the fights are good, and the next wave of fans will appreciate

Often boxing matches can be quite unpleasant events to attend, let's be honest. Outside of the fights themselves, you don't feel like you are getting anything much for your money. Of course the fight is the main thing, but some boxing venues are in need of a serious revamp, and the quality of the subsiduary entertainment on offer is pretty poor.

Tony Lumb · Post by **Tony Lumb** » 11 Jul 2007, 07:29

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
boxingchatter wrote:I'm not so sure that's true. If Fwank doesn't pay a fighter what he wants they just leave and go elsewhere (hello Naz and Ricky) but if Tito Ortiz doesn't get what he wants - tough! The UFC is the only MMA group making money and there's no leverage for the fighter to negotiate with.

That's bad for the fighter - good for the fans because if Ortiz doesn't want to fight the best he can just head down to the jobcentre!

And Fwank can "afford" to spend on adverts. It isn't like the big advert god in the sky was granted UFC £100000000000000000s to spend - they are spending to est themsevles as No.1 fight night in UK and Warren is not.
Geezer, UFC is bankrolled by bloody Time Warner, the second biggest media company in the frigging world! You're talking cobblers if you think that Sports Network as an entity can possibly compete in marketing spend on an equal footing.

Where I would say UFC have really stolen a march however, is in their presentation and packaging, they've looked at pro wrestling, and taken some of the elements of it's marketing and applied it to their product, which unlike wrestling is real violence, not cartoon violence.

It's not just UFC which have done this, it's many of the MMA organisations.

Boxing promotions by and large lack the razzamatazz and hoopla, some may say that's a good thing, and I agree to an extent, but in securing the next generation of fight fans, I think concessions have to be made. The older more dyed in the wool fans will tolerate the promotional glitz if the fights are good, and the next wave of fans will appreciate

Often boxing matches can be quite unpleasant events to attend, let's be honest. Outside of the fights themselves, you don't feel like you are getting anything much for your money. Of course the fight is the main thing, but some boxing venues are in need of a serious revamp, and the quality of the subsiduary entertainment on offer is pretty poor.

UFC is bankrolled privately by the Fertitta brothers. They have had to borrow millions over the last 6 years to get where they are. Despite all the money they've made in the last 18 months, they still owe millions.

Tony Lumb · Post by **Tony Lumb** » 11 Jul 2007, 07:30

nickd wrote:
Tony Lumb wrote:
TerribleTerry wrote: You are talking about promotion and hype there Tony, whereas I was referring to it in terms of sporting purity.

Pro Wrestling, to me, is purile nonsence for teenagers and kids. I genarally view any adult who enjoys it with a degree of suspicion..

MMA, however is a real sport, requiring real skills where the result is not predetermined. A million miles away from 'ladder matches' and 'bra and panty' matches (my personal fave.)

Also you have the wrong Nogueira there mate - it is his bro, who was recently put to sleep by the rampant Sokoudjou, who is on the Brazilian Olympic boxing team..

Also Tony - tip for future UFC cards - join their free mailing list and you will get access to tickets 2 days before they go on general sale.

Thats how I bagged my sweet £25 tixs

I know Minotauro has trained with the Cuban amateur team, I may be wrong about him being on the Brazilian team.

"Pro Wrestling, to me, is purile nonsence for teenagers and kids. I genarally view any adult who enjoys it with a degree of suspicion.. "

If we're using the WWE as an example, i find it hard to argue with you. I still watch it, but the magic is gone. I would, however, dispute that opinion with regards to classic old-school wrestling, pre 1985 or so when McMahon monopolised the business and turned it into a steroid-filled cartoon.

And to the guy who said Ali got his schtick from Gorgeous George - that's what is often said, and oft reported, but I believe it was actually Classy Freddie Blassie "The Hollywood Fashion Plate" who was actually more Ali's era, Gorgeous George was a few years before Ali would've watched.

£25 UFC tickets?? You ***~!
Re Noguiera, it is the smaller of the twin brothers that is the more accomplished boxer. Antonio Rogerio Nogueira. He has won gold at the Pan-Am Games I believe.

I realise that, i was just making the point that Minotauro has also boxed amateur.

boxingchatter · Post by **boxingchatter** » 11 Jul 2007, 08:04

Geezer, UFC is bankrolled by bloody Time Warner, the second biggest media company in the frigging world! You're talking cobblers if you think that Sports Network as an entity can possibly compete in marketing spend on an equal footing.

Wrong. Time Warner have NOTHING to do with UFC, It is owned by Dana White and his two pals who own a bunch of Vegas Casinos. I read in Independent they lost $40million on the UFC before it turned around two years ago.

Where I would say UFC have really stolen a march however, is in their presentation and packaging, they've looked at pro wrestling, and taken some of the elements of it's marketing and applied it to their product, which unlike wrestling is real violence, not cartoon violence.

It looks nothing like pro wrestling to me - and I'm a WWE fan (sorry, the kid likes it and I pretend not to get a kick out of the sillyness). There's nothing invented by WWE at UFC, just simple things like no big 40min waits between fights, competitive fights from the off, big screens showing interviews before the fights etc etc. Nothing boxing can't do but for lack of time and effort.

It's not just UFC which have done this, it's many of the MMA organisations.

You may know more than me, but if this is true how come only UFC is making big bucks then?

Boxing promotions by and large lack the razzamatazz and hoopla, some may say that's a good thing, and I agree to an extent, but in securing the next generation of fight fans, I think concessions have to be made. The older more dyed in the wool fans will tolerate the promotional glitz if the fights are good, and the next wave of fans will appreciate

I think you are right. But do a bunch of old farts who run UK boxing know the young audience enough to do this?

Often boxing matches can be quite unpleasant events to attend, let's be honest. Outside of the fights themselves, you don't feel like you are getting anything much for your money. Of course the fight is the main thing, but some boxing venues are in need of a serious revamp, and the quality of the subsiduary entertainment on offer is pretty poor.

I'm sure one promoter allegedly said in Boxing Monthly about 10 years ago that live fans are just their to be sound effects for TV audience. If my memory is right, then this slump boxing is in is the fruits of that attitude.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 11 Jul 2007, 08:33

Actually you are quite right, it is casino dudes and white that own it, don't know where I got time warner from.

UFC are the market leaders, making the biggest bucks

Fair enough, if you cannot see the paralells between UFC and WWE in their marketing, but I certainly can. They present the combatants more as characters rather than just competitors. The video screens and all that other stuff is straight from Wrestling, who were the first combat 'sport' to use such things as a matter of course. The graphical presentation is also very similar on screen, at least to my eyes.

Look at the most successful boxing show in history, DLH v Mayweather. Why did it sell so many? Well, I think it may have something to do with the enormous build up, including a documentary which presented the two men as light and dark, chalk and cheese, alpha and omega...etc, you get my drift. The fight outsold even the wildest speculations of those involved. This is no accident. For once a major fight was given the kind of indepth and up close marketing that gets people interested in the fighters, rather than just the fight. I was always going to watch the fight, but there are plenty of others who would have been happy just knowing the result, until that documentary came along.

This is what boxing needs. The fighters need I think to be sold to the public and given big media exposure, something they are simply not getting now. The newspapers aren't really interested, so new routes must be found. The likes of the contender style series are a step in the right direction in my opinion, provided they are given mainstream exposure, they will get people interested in what is after all, when done right, a very exciting sport to follow.

Tony Lumb · Post by **Tony Lumb** » 11 Jul 2007, 08:52

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Actually you are quite right, it is casino dudes and white that own it, don't know where I got time warner from.

UFC are the market leaders, making the biggest bucks

Fair enough, if you cannot see the paralells between UFC and WWE in their marketing, but I certainly can. They present the combatants more as characters rather than just competitors. The video screens and all that other stuff is straight from Wrestling, who were the first combat 'sport' to use such things as a matter of course. The graphical presentation is also very similar on screen, at least to my eyes.

Look at the most successful boxing show in history, DLH v Mayweather. Why did it sell so many? Well, I think it may have something to do with the enormous build up, including a documentary which presented the two men as light and dark, chalk and cheese, alpha and omega...etc, you get my drift. The fight outsold even the wildest speculations of those involved. This is no accident. For once a major fight was given the kind of indepth and up close marketing that gets people interested in the fighters, rather than just the fight. I was always going to watch the fight, but there are plenty of others who would have been happy just knowing the result, until that documentary came along.

This is what boxing needs. The fighters need I think to be sold to the public and given big media exposure, something they are simply not getting now. The newspapers aren't really interested, so new routes must be found. The likes of the contender style series are a step in the right direction in my opinion, provided they are given mainstream exposure, they will get people interested in what is after all, when done right, a very exciting sport to follow.

Completely agree James, that was what I was saying as well. But not only do fighters need the exposure, they need to be told/taught HOW to promote themselves and their fights.

The Time Warner snaffoo may have to do with the ex-wrestling company WCW? they were owned by Time Warner till they went under.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 11 Jul 2007, 09:00

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Actually you are quite right, it is casino dudes and white that own it, don't know where I got time warner from.

HBO owned by Time Warner have been in negotiations with UFC to televise shows for some time. They've supposedly been close to an agreement for some time. So doubtless you've read some UFC - Time Warner related garb at some point.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 11 Jul 2007, 09:16

BINGO!

Thanks, thought I was going mad or summat.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 11 Jul 2007, 09:36

As an avid boxing fan I would watch all the fights and my wife was always a great barometer for how well a fight or fighter would sell. She's no fan of boxing but would see it sort of by proxy and every now and then someone would grab her imagination and make her want to watch the fights.

I remember the verbal interchange between Benn and Eubank before the first fight and her saying how she couldn't wait to see the fight. I thought, hang on... Same with Naz... These guys pulled in the casual fan as well as the no-fan-at-all.

Once SKY took over I couldn't watch fights anymore and had to rely on tapes etc... This held no interest for her. She had absolutely no exposure to the sport. She has no interest in any boxer today other Amir Khan. He has had exposure and has a story behind him. If the fighters have no story then there is no interest. They are just a name on a poster.

It's the same with my whole family. My brothers and sisters would all watch the fights because through me watching they got some exposure to the personalities involved.

I'm not a big UFC fan but have been to one show and the audience seemed different to boxing crowds. They seem to be aiming at white middle class teenagers. These kids are cash rich and looking for a show as well as the fights.