to those who think calzaghe is better than hatton

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 11 Jul 2007, 20:35

I'm going to be a bit harsh on Watson because his career ended at a young age. However, Zab Judah for all his faults has DONE a feck of a lot more than Rochigianni and Watson - and had talent that outweighed his achievement.

Plus, Eubank should be 1-1 vs Watson anyway.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 12 Jul 2007, 04:21

PN - You normally speak much sense but comparing Calzaghes win over Eubank to Hattons over Tszyu is just crazy talk!

Eubank only ever proved himself the best fighter in his own country, never fought a top rated fighter from across the pond or took part in a single unification fight.

Also he (Eubank) took the Calzaghe fight at very short notice (a matter of days?) having been in training for a Light-Heavy or Cruiser contest.

Tszyu-Eubank, not even comparable.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 12 Jul 2007, 06:29

Twisted Transistor wrote:
Captain Hook wrote:And what the heck does Twisted Transistor mean? Is that a band?

don't feck with NickD, he's Barry Chuckle, I'm Paul...

"To me, to you"...
Nick D Is easy to feck with If all he can reply with Is blah blah blah.

Blah blah blah because I've been away from here for ages and come back and you're still spouting the same bollocks about Calzaghe.

Hatton has achieved more no question of that. I've said Calzaghe has the more talent of the two but he has been happy to fight at home and face some absolute stiffs in the process. Hatton since beating Tszyu has been cementing a legacy and continues to look to do so. Finally after 20 defences Calzaghe is doing something to cement a legacy. Do the maths!

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 12 Jul 2007, 07:01

Goz wrote:PN - You normally speak much sense but comparing Calzaghes win over Eubank to Hattons over Tszyu is just crazy talk!

Eubank only ever proved himself the best fighter in his own country, never fought a top rated fighter from across the pond or took part in a single unification fight.

Also he (Eubank) took the Calzaghe fight at very short notice (a matter of days?) having been in training for a Light-Heavy or Cruiser contest.

Tszyu-Eubank, not even comparable.

Thanks for the compliment, maybe I'm biased because Eubanks got me into boxing in the first place. I think Eubank was a seriously amazing fighter in his peak, an ATG and P4P worthy. Yes Benn and Watson may have been British but they were also world class British fighters. Eubanks comp was somewhat lacking but for me hes an ATG

I also think Tyszu is somewhat overrated as he never faced a A Class fighter in their prime.

Yes Eubanks definately wasn't at his best against Calazage - I was only referring to Eubanks in terms of being a great fighter - not whether the win itself was as good as the Tyszu 1. The way Calazage beat Chris was mighty impressive.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 12 Jul 2007, 07:56

Eubank only beat 1 A class fighter, and aside from the one spectacular win late in his career, Benn was never A class. Benn in 1990 and 1993 had never had A class credentials.

Rochigianni, Watson et al... Not A class.

I'm a Eubank fan also, very much so. I would have loved to have seen him fight Jones, Toney etc... but he didn't and never really tested himself in A class.

For me, Nigel Benn aside. Zab Judah credentials are better than any of Eubank's victims.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 12 Jul 2007, 08:02

What's so special abouy Judah? He's a hype job who has built his career on bowling over scrubs in quick order. The best fighter he ever beat was also ran DeMarcus Corley. Every time he stepped up to A class he got beat down. Hell, even mayweather, who isn't exactly a murderous puncher about 135, gave him a right mauling.

Eubank may not have been a truly elite fighter in terms of his opposition, but Judah is a poor example to cite.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 12 Jul 2007, 08:17

jamesmcdonnell wrote:What's so special abouy Judah? He's a hype job who has built his career on bowling over scrubs in quick order. The best fighter he ever beat was also ran DeMarcus Corley. Every time he stepped up to A class he got beat down. Hell, even mayweather, who isn't exactly a murderous puncher about 135, gave him a right mauling.

Eubank may not have been a truly elite fighter in terms of his opposition, but Judah is a poor example to cite.

Mayweather didn't give him a mauling and what about Cory Spinks as a career best win? What about Junior Witter?

I didn't compare Eubank to Judah directly. The comparison was made between Eubank and Tszyu best opposition (as Calzaghe's and Hatton's best victims)... and as far as Eubank's best opposition, only Nigel Benn's creditials outweigh Judah. Eubank only once beat an A class fighter. Judah has done more the Rochigiani, Watson, Henry fecking Wharton etc. Thats what I was citing... Not Judah doing better than Eubank or Benn.

As good as Michael Watson was - the mauling he took vs McCallum was every bit as bad as Judah vs Cotto.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 12 Jul 2007, 08:19

There is no need for Calzaghe to go to America now.

It's too late for him.

He should have gone in the late 1990's; that would have meant something.

He's missed the boat & that is a shame, because his talent deserves better.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 12 Jul 2007, 08:25

stujones wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:What's so special abouy Judah? He's a hype job who has built his career on bowling over scrubs in quick order. The best fighter he ever beat was also ran DeMarcus Corley. Every time he stepped up to A class he got beat down. Hell, even mayweather, who isn't exactly a murderous puncher about 135, gave him a right mauling.

Eubank may not have been a truly elite fighter in terms of his opposition, but Judah is a poor example to cite.
Mayweather didn't give him a mauling and what about Cory Spinks as a career best win? What about Junior Witter?

I didn't compare Eubank to Judah directly. The comparison was made between Eubank and Tszyu best opposition (as Calzaghe's and Hatton's best victims)... and as far as Eubank's best opposition, only Nigel Benn's creditials outweigh Judah. Eubank only once beat an A class fighter. Judah has done more the Rochigiani, Watson, Henry fecking Wharton etc. Thats what I was citing... Not Judah doing better than Eubank or Benn.

As good as Michael Watson was - the mauling he took vs McCallum was every bit as bad as Judah vs Cotto.

Witter was an inexperienced late sub, that is not a creditable win, as Junior only turned up to make Zab look bad, nothing more.

I don't really rate spinks highly at all, but will admit this is a better win that the Corley win, however, let's not forget that he needed two bites of the cherry to beat the mediocre and feather fisted Spinks.

Judah did get a mauling, he looked very sorry for himself over the last third of the fight.

McCallum was a great fighter, and Watson was taking a big step up in class, there's no shame in that.

Judah has been hyped as a world beater his whole career, but has done little to establish those credentials to my mind.

I'm not a big fan of Judah as you can possibly tell.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 12 Jul 2007, 08:29

stujones wrote: For me, Nigel Benn aside. Zab Judah credentials are better than any of Eubank's victims.

But isn't that the point, Tyszu is been talked about a level above Eubank BUT Eubank has the better win. Could you imagine a 160lb Judah trying to take the punches of McCellan and Barkley like Benn did? Eubank has very good B Class wins much like Tyszu does

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 12 Jul 2007, 08:30

nickd wrote:
Twisted Transistor wrote:
Captain Hook wrote:And what the heck does Twisted Transistor mean? Is that a band?

don't feck with NickD, he's Barry Chuckle, I'm Paul...

"To me, to you"...
Nick D Is easy to feck with If all he can reply with Is blah blah blah.
Blah blah blah because I've been away from here for ages and come back and you're still spouting the same bollocks about Calzaghe.

Hatton has achieved more no question of that. I've said Calzaghe has the more talent of the two but he has been happy to fight at home and face some absolute stiffs in the process. Hatton since beating Tszyu has been cementing a legacy and continues to look to do so. Finally after 20 defences Calzaghe is doing something to cement a legacy. Do the maths!

Look at the bollocks your spouting now. Urango, Maussa and Callazo are hardly legacys. How does he continue to cement one? He leeps saying he'll fight Floyd and he's probably left It too late now since Floyd beat DLH.

Hatton might have to take a paycut to fight Floyd now.

One name Is not bigger than dominating the best names at his weight he could get and 20 defences Including unification.

Fighting at home Is irrelevant, most boxing fans try to use this ground excuse just so they can have an arguement still.

Tszyu's a great name but he hasn't done more than Calzaghe, Super middleweight may not have legendary names but he's done more than Hatton's belt chasing.

You were one of the many who doubted he'd fight Kessler too.

You can backtrack but I remeber how negative you were about Hatton before Castillo.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 12 Jul 2007, 08:31

stujones wrote:
Mayweather didn't give him a mauling and what about Cory Spinks as a career best win? What about Junior Witter? .

I think Judah is very good, a potential ATG in ability but fundamentally just isn't a fighter and folds under pressure. Hes folded against Tyszu, Baldomir, Mayweather and Cotto. In the first Spinks fight he daydreamed his way into a loss

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 12 Jul 2007, 08:34

Didn't Judah knock down Floyd and It wasn't counted?

Heres the gif that says It looks that way anyway.

earsjohn · Post by **earsjohn** » 12 Jul 2007, 08:34

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
stujones wrote: For me, Nigel Benn aside. Zab Judah credentials are better than any of Eubank's victims.
But isn't that the point, Tyszu is been talked about a level above Eubank BUT Eubank has the better win. Could you imagine a 160lb Judah trying to take the punches of McCellan and Barkley like Benn did? Eubank has very good B Class wins much like Tyszu does

PN - just watch some of Tszyu's fights (not just the Hatton fight). The guy was awesome. He proved it consistently against the best over a long period of time. Eubank, while one of the greatest British fighters ever, was a big fish in the British pond, and never really proved himself against the top opposition around at the time (ie Toney and Jones, etc)

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 12 Jul 2007, 08:38

Twisted Transistor wrote:
nickd wrote:
Twisted Transistor wrote: Nick D Is easy to feck with If all he can reply with Is blah blah blah.
Blah blah blah because I've been away from here for ages and come back and you're still spouting the same bollocks about Calzaghe.

Hatton has achieved more no question of that. I've said Calzaghe has the more talent of the two but he has been happy to fight at home and face some absolute stiffs in the process. Hatton since beating Tszyu has been cementing a legacy and continues to look to do so. Finally after 20 defences Calzaghe is doing something to cement a legacy. Do the maths!
Look at the bollocks your spouting now. Urango, Maussa and Callazo are hardly legacys. How does he continue to cement one? He leeps saying he'll fight Floyd and he's probably left It too late now since Floyd beat DLH.

Hatton might have to take a paycut to fight Floyd now.

One name Is not bigger than dominating the best names at his weight he could get and 20 defences Including unification.

Fighting at home Is irrelevant, most boxing fans try to use this ground excuse just so they can have an arguement still.

Tszyu's a great name but he hasn't done more than Calzaghe, Super middleweight may not have legendary names but he's done more than Hatton's belt chasing.

You were one of the many who doubted he'd fight Kessler too.

Going up a division and winning a title then moving back down to claim your spot as the top man at 140 is not legacy building? It's certainly more legacy building than beating Bika and Manfredo in the same time for the WBO belt...

Calzaghe has longevity in his favour but that is it, Hatton has beaten a guy at or near the top of the P4P lists at the time (Tszyu) and one at the very least on the fringes of it (Castillo).

If Calzaghe dominates Kessler I'm prepared to reconsider but as of now Hatton has achieved more in a much shorter time frame. Keep kissing Calzaghe's nuts all you like but like I say facts are facts. You won't find many on here agreeing Calzaghe has done more until he beats Kessler. Yes I doubted the fight would happen as did most people. Let's see them in the ring touching gloves and then I'll believe it's happening lets hope neither gets injured in the meantime.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 12 Jul 2007, 08:40

earsjohn wrote:
Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
stujones wrote: For me, Nigel Benn aside. Zab Judah credentials are better than any of Eubank's victims.
But isn't that the point, Tyszu is been talked about a level above Eubank BUT Eubank has the better win. Could you imagine a 160lb Judah trying to take the punches of McCellan and Barkley like Benn did? Eubank has very good B Class wins much like Tyszu does
PN - just watch some of Tszyu's fights (not just the Hatton fight). The guy was awesome. He proved it consistently against the best over a long period of time. Eubank, while one of the greatest British fighters ever, was a big fish in the British pond, and never really proved himself against the top opposition around at the time (ie Toney and Jones, etc)

I've seen so many of Tyszus fights but your wrong he never proved himself against the best of the best. Much like Eubank didn't fight Jones/Toney, Tyszu never fought Mosley/DLH/Mayweather for whatever reasons.

Tyszu was great BUT he never faced the best of the best so hes hard to rate. Hes a bit like Hamed in that respect

earsjohn · Post by **earsjohn** » 12 Jul 2007, 08:40

Twisted Transistor wrote:
One name Is not bigger than dominating the best names at his weight he could get and 20 defences Including unification.

Fighting at home Is irrelevant, most boxing fans try to use this ground excuse just so they can have an arguement still.

The best names at his weight? What about Toney, Jones, Tarver, Johnson? Even Sven Ottke? Not to mention Hopkins or Taylor He COULD have made these fights if he had wanted, but they were higher risk than Mario Veit (twice!!!!), Tocker Pudwill and Evans Ashira. He has dominated the middle level at SM, not the best.

An quote from the latest issue of The Ring sums it up nicely - "He (Calzaghe) certainly belongs among the pound-for-pound elite, but he shows an odd reluctance to prove it."

I don't think many knowledgable fans doubt his class, but his true status at his weight is difficult to determine given the route he's taken through his career.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 12 Jul 2007, 08:45

nickd wrote: 1. Going up a division and winning a title then moving back down to claim your spot as the top man at 140 is not legacy building? It's certainly more legacy building than beating Bika and Manfredo in the same time for the WBO belt...

2. Calzaghe has longevity in his favour but that is it, Hatton has beaten a guy at or near the top of the P4P lists at the time (Tszyu) and one at the very least on the fringes of it (Castillo)..

1. So if Calazage had gone up and beaten Gonzalez or Johnson at 175 as he was proposed to do before his marital troubles we would rate him higher?

2. Castillo wasn't fringe P4P at 140 when he faced Hatton. Also do we rate the blatantly inferior Collins over Calazage for his wins over Benn/Eubank, which probably rate higher than Joes wins?

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 12 Jul 2007, 08:49

earsjohn wrote:
Twisted Transistor wrote:
One name Is not bigger than dominating the best names at his weight he could get and 20 defences Including unification.

Fighting at home Is irrelevant, most boxing fans try to use this ground excuse just so they can have an arguement still.
The best names at his weight? What about Toney, Jones, Tarver, Johnson? Even Sven Ottke? Not to mention Hopkins or Taylor He COULD have made these fights if he had wanted, but they were higher risk than Mario Veit (twice!!!!), Tocker Pudwill and Evans Ashira. He has dominated the middle level at SM, not the best.

An quote from the latest issue of The Ring sums it up nicely - "He (Calzaghe) certainly belongs among the pound-for-pound elite, but he shows an odd reluctance to prove it."

I don't think many knowledgable fans doubt his class, but his true status at his weight is difficult to determine given the route he's taken through his career.

Jones - moved upto 175 when calazage became champ

Toney - was at cruserweight when Joe was a super middle

Tarver - tried to make the fight, it didnt happen

Johnson - would have happened if it wasn't for Joes marital problems. He probably felt like his life was falling apart, I think hes aloud#

Otke - Joe wanted the fight and destroyed Mitchell who arguably beat Otke. He also beat Brewer/Reid who also both arguably beat Otke

Hopkins - BHOPs turned down a career high payday and made around 200k in his next fight

Taylor - they offered $6m was it? Career high payday turned down again.

Now what about Hatton not facing Mayweather, Cotto, Harris, Witter, and if you want to talk about the next division up as you do for Calazage - Margarito, Williams, Mosley

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 12 Jul 2007, 08:51

Toney was too fat to stay at 12 stone by the time Calzaghe would of been ready Toney was at Cruiserweight.

Johnson Is lucky the LHW's are a bit weak those slow plodding straights would not touch Calzaghe like they touched Woods.

Tarver lives off his Roy Jones wins to think he's anything special.

Read that Joe never got offers to fight Ottke so dunno about him. Hopkins was offered but pulled out and Taylor's shite and would get a beating If Spinks could beat Taylor(I thought Spinks won).

Taylor said he could make Middle easy now he;s saying he's moving up to Super middle after Pavlik saying It's hard to make the weight. Taylor can't decide for shit.

There were offers and anything could of happened.

I don't deny Joe has had some terrible fights and I was unhappy with the Manfredo fight so I don't totally defend what happens, but theres not many facts about why these fights haven't happened and he's blamed for them more than the guys offered.

I would soley determine his status on opposition like most people do here though.

I am a Hatton fan too, I'm a fan of any Brit who goes onto world class but no one has anything negative to say because he beat Tszyu and you get jumped on as saying bollocks when you criticise him.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 12 Jul 2007, 09:01

Going up a division and winning a title then moving back down to claim your spot as the top man at 140 is not legacy building? It's certainly more legacy building than beating Bika and Manfredo in the same time for the WBO belt...

Calzaghe has longevity in his favour but that is it, Hatton has beaten a guy at or near the top of the P4P lists at the time (Tszyu) and one at the very least on the fringes of it (Castillo).

If Calzaghe dominates Kessler I'm prepared to reconsider but as of now Hatton has achieved more in a much shorter time frame. Keep kissing Calzaghe's nuts all you like but like I say facts are facts. You won't find many on here agreeing Calzaghe has done more until he beats Kessler. Yes I doubted the fight would happen as did most people. Let's see them in the ring touching gloves and then I'll believe it's happening lets hope neither gets injured in the meantime.

Posts from you about Hatton post Tszyu and before Castillo.

So what the hell was the point of fighting Urango then? Hatton's post Tszyu career is a bit of a farce. Lets hope he can pull it out of the bag against Castillo. I certanly wouldn't bank on that given this weekends result Hatton looks to be a little overrated IMO.

Hamed's achievements way outweigh Hatton at the moment. Hamed cleaned out the division and but for ridiculous politics wouls have been the undisputed champion at 126. Hatton has won 1 big fight against Tszyu and although he has won belts here and there his comp level since has been decidedly average.

Yes, huge fish like Maussa, Collazo, Urango...

You demean Callazo as an Opponent yet you use him to say he's legacy building for Hatton?

Going back down to fight Urango Is hardly being the man at 10stone although he Is the champ for beating Tszyu.

Castillo wasn't P4p and had done nothing special since his Corrales fights, Corrales sounded more like a Gatti like fighter though anyway without the chin.

So because I have my own opinions I'm considered kissing nuts? I could say the same about your Hatton posts and I already mentioned how you contradicted yourself when I quoted your past posts.

Your lack of respect for my opinions clearly shows how limited you are.

At least Joe Vs Kessler Is more likely than Hatton Vs Floyd and Joe took less time to give us the fight we want.

earsjohn · Post by **earsjohn** » 12 Jul 2007, 09:06

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
earsjohn wrote:
Twisted Transistor wrote:
One name Is not bigger than dominating the best names at his weight he could get and 20 defences Including unification.

Fighting at home Is irrelevant, most boxing fans try to use this ground excuse just so they can have an arguement still.
The best names at his weight? What about Toney, Jones, Tarver, Johnson? Even Sven Ottke? Not to mention Hopkins or Taylor He COULD have made these fights if he had wanted, but they were higher risk than Mario Veit (twice!!!!), Tocker Pudwill and Evans Ashira. He has dominated the middle level at SM, not the best.

An quote from the latest issue of The Ring sums it up nicely - "He (Calzaghe) certainly belongs among the pound-for-pound elite, but he shows an odd reluctance to prove it."

I don't think many knowledgable fans doubt his class, but his true status at his weight is difficult to determine given the route he's taken through his career.
Jones - moved upto 175 when calazage became champ

Toney - was at cruserweight when Joe was a super middle

Tarver - tried to make the fight, it didnt happen

Johnson - would have happened if it wasn't for Joes marital problems. He probably felt like his life was falling apart, I think hes aloud#

Otke - Joe wanted the fight and destroyed Mitchell who arguably beat Otke. He also beat Brewer/Reid who also both arguably beat Otke

Hopkins - BHOPs turned down a career high payday and made around 200k in his next fight

Taylor - they offered $6m was it? Career high payday turned down again.

Now what about Hatton not facing Mayweather, Cotto, Harris, Witter, and if you want to talk about the next division up as you do for Calazage - Margarito, Williams, Mosley

Hatton is 5 fights into his time as a World Level fighter - JC has been a 'World' Champion for 10 years and 20 defences. In his 5 fights, one could argue that Hatton has fought 2 World Class opponents. In his 20 fights, has Calzaghe done the same? Lacy is one, and maybe Eubank. But that is 2 out of 20; a HUGE difference from 2 out of 5.

As for some of the fighters I mentioned - the point is that Joe could have made the fights happen (stepping up in weight, leaving Wales, etc) but he chose the easy option.

The Taylor offer for instance. $6m to fight in Wales - why would Calzaghe not consider going to the States instead for arguably more money? Taylor is a big draw and it would be (is) a big fight.

earsjohn · Post by **earsjohn** » 12 Jul 2007, 09:08

Twisted Transistor wrote:
Going up a division and winning a title then moving back down to claim your spot as the top man at 140 is not legacy building? It's certainly more legacy building than beating Bika and Manfredo in the same time for the WBO belt...

Calzaghe has longevity in his favour but that is it, Hatton has beaten a guy at or near the top of the P4P lists at the time (Tszyu) and one at the very least on the fringes of it (Castillo).

If Calzaghe dominates Kessler I'm prepared to reconsider but as of now Hatton has achieved more in a much shorter time frame. Keep kissing Calzaghe's nuts all you like but like I say facts are facts. You won't find many on here agreeing Calzaghe has done more until he beats Kessler. Yes I doubted the fight would happen as did most people. Let's see them in the ring touching gloves and then I'll believe it's happening lets hope neither gets injured in the meantime.
Posts from you about Hatton post Tszyu and before Castillo.

So what the hell was the point of fighting Urango then? Hatton's post Tszyu career is a bit of a farce. Lets hope he can pull it out of the bag against Castillo. I certanly wouldn't bank on that given this weekends result Hatton looks to be a little overrated IMO.

Hamed's achievements way outweigh Hatton at the moment. Hamed cleaned out the division and but for ridiculous politics wouls have been the undisputed champion at 126. Hatton has won 1 big fight against Tszyu and although he has won belts here and there his comp level since has been decidedly average.

Yes, huge fish like Maussa, Collazo, Urango...
You demean Callazo as an Opponent yet you use him to say he's legacy building for Hatton?

Going back down to fight Urango Is hardly being the man at 10stone although he Is the champ for beating Tszyu.

Castillo wasn't P4p and had done nothing special since his Corrales fights, Corrales sounded more like a Gatti like fighter though anyway without the chin.

So because I have my own opinions I'm considered kissing nuts? I could say the same about your Hatton posts and I already mentioned how you contradicted yourself when I quoted your past posts.

Your lack of respect for my opinions clearly shows how limited you are.

At least Joe Vs Kessler Is more likely than Hatton Vs Floyd and Joe took less time to give us the fight we want.

Joe has taken 10 years to give us a fight worthy of the level he and so many of his most loyal fans claim him to be at.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 12 Jul 2007, 09:09

Wasn't he going to leave Wales when he was nearly going to fight Hopkins after Hop beat Trinidad?

Warren mentioned It on a British Boxing.net article and I think It's mentioned In Joe's book.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 12 Jul 2007, 09:11

Bugger, you beat me to it.

Calzaghe has been a 'world' champ as long as Hatton's been fighting pretty much.

Having the Kessler and Lacy fights relatively close together however, is a decent end of career legacy. If he beats Kessler, then I think Calzaghe has done the business for his legacy at 168. Sure, other fights never happened, but it takes a pretty special fighter to stay unbeaten as long as that, and take on and beat someone like Kessler at the end of a long career.