Billy Conn went crazy?

[Cap]

Look at Billy Conn's record prior to the first Louis fight. Not exactly the record of a heavy handed knockout artist. What in heaven's name made him think he could kayo Joe Louis? I mean, why take such a risk against the deadliest puncher of his era? Did someone in his corner give him bad advice?

Cap

[enrique]

Conn said- "What's the sense of being Irish if you can't do something stupid?"

In a TV show with Louis he said: "Joe you should have let me have the crown and taken it back in the rematch."

Joe answered: "Billy you had the crown for a dozen rounds and did not know what to do with it."

[Seamus]

Knockout percentages can be very misleading. Billy Conn wasen't a big puncher, but at the same time I wouldn't put too much stock in his having only 15 KO's in 77 fights. In the year before the 1st Louis fight, he stopped a very underrated Bob Pastor and then added Gunnar Barlund and Buddy Knox to his list of heavyweights he stopped. Billy Conn was typically a fast stick and move guy, but when he elected to, he plant his feet and hit hard enough to KO heavyweights.

[Jaclem]

..in the twelth round billy was battering joe all over the place for about a minute and almost out him down with a left hook...louis had to hold on and spin around or maybe he would have hit the canvas. this convinced conn he could knock the bomber out...and as a matter of fact in an exchange in the thirteenth round he came back from a louis attack to land a barrage of his own. alas... billy forgot about his guard for maybe a mini-second..which is something you didn't want to do against louis...whose extraordinary fast and power combinations...and it took a few...conn was tough!!...flattened conn.

i have a different take on this fight from the conventional wisdom...i have a good film and tape of this one and i've watched it a lot. billy was actually winning most of his rounds by leaping in and throwing combinations...and leaping out again....not just by sticking and running....and this 13th round attack wasn't a lot different from many he had got by with in the earlier rounds. plus...he took a body beating in the early rounds...and a few as the fight went on, even in the rounds he won. i still think his legs were giving out. he was on the move constantly and louis was shuffling after him. billy had to be tiring a little as louis wasn't expending nearly as much energy. no way to know, but i think louis would have caught him eventually.

funny side note....when it looked as if louis might be losing the fight before he ended it, the deadpan bomber, when he left the ring, said to his trainer,. manny seamon, who was always either smoking or chewing a cigar ...."how many seegars did you swallow, manny?"

louis himself said he didn't feel desparate...said "there were still three rounds to go and i figured i'd get him." this doesn't necessarily mean he would have....but i do think joe was speaking honestly.

as for conn not thinking he'd get the decision...i don't understand this. uncle mike would have been his promoter if he had won and billy would have made a fortune for him. plus...the usual arthur donovan....who was known to give louis the benefit of the doubt from time to time..was not the referee for this one....it was eddie joseph, and the word was that jacobs was the one who wanted him.

[Chuck1052]

I am skeptical of people who dismiss the knockout percentages
of certain oldtime fighters. Instead of making a quick assessment,
take a good look of a record of a given fighter, determining
the quality and durability of their opponents. Also take into
account if someone has stopped a lot of top fighters. You should
also find out if referees tended to stop bouts in given eras.
Finally, determine a fighter's boxing style.

Even though Sam Langford doesn't have an impressive
knockout percentage by today's standards. But it was
felt that he had a tendency to "carry" many of his
opponents. Moreover, he knocked out an impressive
number of very capable fighters and was known as
one of the hardest punchers of his time.

- Chuck Johnston

[I Feel Fine]

He KO'd a couple of Heavyweights before he fought Louis, and then he had Louis badly hurt with a couple of left hooks and figured he could stop Joe.

[Cap]

Billy Conn was a great boxer, but a big puncher he was not. The guys he kayoed were taken apart gradually, round by round. Conn seemed to be an intelligent fighter and must have known what a dangerous SOB Louis was. There would've been plenty of opportunity for him to see the Brown Bomber in action. Considering the race situation at the time, did he underestimate Louis? Remember, this was a time when it was okay to introduce Louis in the ring with the phrase "...although coloured...".


Cap

[Ambling Alp]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the question of underestimating Louis. Conn had to have known how great of a fighter Louis was.

I don't know why, but this fight always seems different to me than how some other people describe it. Conn wasn't really dancing around Louis for the first 12 rounds as is often described. He would get in and get out , but it's not like he was "on his bicycle" for 12 rounds. At times he was right in front of Louis but for some reason Louis didn't go after him.

It seems that Louis was having an off night. He appeared lethargic compared to most of his other fights.
Watching the fight, it doesn't seem to me like Conn completely changed his style in the 13 th round. It seems more to me that Louis finally woke up.

[The Great John L]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the question of underestimating Louis. Conn had to have known how great of a fighter Louis was.

I don't know why, but this fight always seems different to me than how some other people describe it. Conn wasn't really dancing around Louis for the first 12 rounds as is often described. He would get in and get out , but it's not like he was "on his bicycle" for 12 rounds. At times he was right in front of Louis but for some reason Louis didn't go after him.

It seems that Louis was having an off night. He appeared lethargic compared to most of his other fights.
Watching the fight, it doesn't seem to me like Conn completely changed his style in the 13 th round. It seems more to me that Louis finally woke up.

Exactly right. I think Conn’s tactics of quick flurries and moving out simply caught a slightly sluggish Louis by surprise and Joe just couldn’t pull the trigger quick enough. Mike Spinks used similar tactics against Holmes, although he moved a bit more than Conn. It’s difficult to throw a hard punch when you’re getting smacked around by a volley of quick punches.

[dempseyfire]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the question of underestimating Louis. Conn had to have known how great of a fighter Louis was.

I don't know why, but this fight always seems different to me than how some other people describe it. Conn wasn't really dancing around Louis for the first 12 rounds as is often described. He would get in and get out , but it's not like he was "on his bicycle" for 12 rounds. At times he was right in front of Louis but for some reason Louis didn't go after him.

It seems that Louis was having an off night. He appeared lethargic compared to most of his other fights.
Watching the fight, it doesn't seem to me like Conn completely changed his style in the 13 th round. It seems more to me that Louis finally woke up.

Exactly right. I think Conn’s tactics of quick flurries and moving out simply caught a slightly sluggish Louis by surprise and Joe just couldn’t pull the trigger quick enough. Mike Spinks used similar tactics against Holmes, although he moved a bit more than Conn. It’s difficult to throw a hard punch when you’re getting smacked around by a volley of quick punches.

I also agree. It also annoys me when people point to the Conn fight when discussing a fantasy Ali-Louis match, whereas Conn and Ali had COMPLETELY different styles, but b/c Conn 'danced around' for a few of the early rounds (which he lost BTW) there's a direct correlation.

Conn was slightly ahead at the time of the stoppage but didn't have an insurmountable lead, and it wasn't his "Irish grit" which caused him to lose the title. He fought the 13th just like he'd fought the past 5 rounds. The pressure of the bigger Joe just took its toll, and Conn just couldn't evade Louis's return fire. I concur that Louis had an offnight, and that if they had rematched before the War, it would have been a repeat of their 1946 fight (people point to Conn being past it but I think Louis had even eroded more and he still whupped Conn's ass)

Conn was such a media darling that urban legend has sprung up all around the fight.

[Seamus]

Over 30 years ago I read an article about this fight, can't remember if it was a newspaper, book or magazine, but it was alleged that Conn was worried late about not getting the decision and decided to take Louis out and that's how he ended up getting KO'd. Then the article concluded that had Conn not changed his fight plan in the 13th round we may have seen Louis lose his title to a LHW.

[granberry]

Conn seemed to be an intelligent fighter

That is an all time winner.

And I bet Isaac Newton "seemed to be" a good mathematician.

[Cap]

Conn seemed to be an intelligent fighter

That is an all time winner.

And I bet Isaac Newton "seemed to be" a good mathematician.

His actions against Louis in the later rounds tend to cause some doubt, don't you think, Cranberries?

Cap

[HomicideHenry]

Conn's 'power' came from the same source that gave Jimm Wilde all his knockout's. It wasn't by strength by any means but by timing and accuracy, as well as his speed. He beat Joe Louis to the punch many a time, countering and making Louis go off balance at times---plus throw in the fact that for a HW, champion or not, Louis had a softer chin than one would hope for him.