to those who think calzaghe is better than hatton

[Max Molyneux]

Going up a division and winning a title then moving back down to claim your spot as the top man at 140 is not legacy building? It's certainly more legacy building than beating Bika and Manfredo in the same time for the WBO belt...

Calzaghe has longevity in his favour but that is it, Hatton has beaten a guy at or near the top of the P4P lists at the time (Tszyu) and one at the very least on the fringes of it (Castillo).

If Calzaghe dominates Kessler I'm prepared to reconsider but as of now Hatton has achieved more in a much shorter time frame. Keep kissing Calzaghe's nuts all you like but like I say facts are facts. You won't find many on here agreeing Calzaghe has done more until he beats Kessler. Yes I doubted the fight would happen as did most people. Let's see them in the ring touching gloves and then I'll believe it's happening lets hope neither gets injured in the meantime.

Posts from you about Hatton post Tszyu and before Castillo.

So what the hell was the point of fighting Urango then? Hatton's post Tszyu career is a bit of a farce. Lets hope he can pull it out of the bag against Castillo. I certanly wouldn't bank on that given this weekends result Hatton looks to be a little overrated IMO.

Hamed's achievements way outweigh Hatton at the moment. Hamed cleaned out the division and but for ridiculous politics wouls have been the undisputed champion at 126. Hatton has won 1 big fight against Tszyu and although he has won belts here and there his comp level since has been decidedly average.

Yes, huge fish like Maussa, Collazo, Urango...

You demean Callazo as an Opponent yet you use him to say he's legacy building for Hatton?

Going back down to fight Urango Is hardly being the man at 10stone although he Is the champ for beating Tszyu.

Castillo wasn't P4p and had done nothing special since his Corrales fights, Corrales sounded more like a Gatti like fighter though anyway without the chin.

So because I have my own opinions I'm considered kissing nuts? I could say the same about your Hatton posts and I already mentioned how you contradicted yourself when I quoted your past posts.

Your lack of respect for my opinions clearly shows how limited you are.

At least Joe Vs Kessler Is more likely than Hatton Vs Floyd and Joe took less time to give us the fight we want.

Joe has taken 10 years to give us a fight worthy of the level he and so many of his most loyal fans claim him to be at.

It was less than 9 years when he gave us Lacy which was worthy. He did have decent opp before that though like Mitchell and Reid.

If all you guys have to argue Is Tszyu and Castillo then I might not bother. Urango wasn't worthy, Maussa was fair since you can;t keep having big fight after big fight and Callazo was the WBA's normal champ and Baldomir would of been their true champ but he couldn't afford to pay them and the WBC sanction money.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

The best names at his weight? What about Toney, Jones, Tarver, Johnson? Even Sven Ottke? Not to mention Hopkins or Taylor He COULD have made these fights if he had wanted, but they were higher risk than Mario Veit (twice!!!!), Tocker Pudwill and Evans Ashira. He has dominated the middle level at SM, not the best.

An quote from the latest issue of The Ring sums it up nicely - "He (Calzaghe) certainly belongs among the pound-for-pound elite, but he shows an odd reluctance to prove it."

I don't think many knowledgable fans doubt his class, but his true status at his weight is difficult to determine given the route he's taken through his career.

Jones - moved upto 175 when calazage became champ

Toney - was at cruserweight when Joe was a super middle

Tarver - tried to make the fight, it didnt happen

Johnson - would have happened if it wasn't for Joes marital problems. He probably felt like his life was falling apart, I think hes aloud#

Otke - Joe wanted the fight and destroyed Mitchell who arguably beat Otke. He also beat Brewer/Reid who also both arguably beat Otke

Hopkins - BHOPs turned down a career high payday and made around 200k in his next fight

Taylor - they offered $6m was it? Career high payday turned down again.

Now what about Hatton not facing Mayweather, Cotto, Harris, Witter, and if you want to talk about the next division up as you do for Calazage - Margarito, Williams, Mosley

Hatton is 5 fights into his time as a World Level fighter - JC has been a 'World' Champion for 10 years and 20 defences. In his 5 fights, one could argue that Hatton has fought 2 World Class opponents. In his 20 fights, has Calzaghe done the same? Lacy is one, and maybe Eubank. But that is 2 out of 20; a HUGE difference from 2 out of 5.

As for some of the fighters I mentioned - the point is that Joe could have made the fights happen (stepping up in weight, leaving Wales, etc) but he chose the easy option.

The Taylor offer for instance. $6m to fight in Wales - why would Calzaghe not consider going to the States instead for arguably more money? Taylor is a big draw and it would be (is) a big fight.

Taylor didnt offer Calazage money did he and Calazage is facing the more dangerous KEssler instead, hardly ducking Taylor is he?

Lets look at the world champions Calazages beaten:

Eubank - past prime
Reid - prime
Woodhall - near prime
Lacy - prime
Mitchell - near prime
Brewer - near prime

Your also ignoring the fact Hattons been around world level since around 2001/2002, Hatton will not be defending his title against the best in his division in 2015 - 10years after his first title fight, like Calazage has done (1997-2007).

[earsjohn]

Jones - moved upto 175 when calazage became champ

Toney - was at cruserweight when Joe was a super middle

Tarver - tried to make the fight, it didnt happen

Johnson - would have happened if it wasn't for Joes marital problems. He probably felt like his life was falling apart, I think hes aloud#

Otke - Joe wanted the fight and destroyed Mitchell who arguably beat Otke. He also beat Brewer/Reid who also both arguably beat Otke

Hopkins - BHOPs turned down a career high payday and made around 200k in his next fight

Taylor - they offered $6m was it? Career high payday turned down again.

Now what about Hatton not facing Mayweather, Cotto, Harris, Witter, and if you want to talk about the next division up as you do for Calazage - Margarito, Williams, Mosley

Hatton is 5 fights into his time as a World Level fighter - JC has been a 'World' Champion for 10 years and 20 defences. In his 5 fights, one could argue that Hatton has fought 2 World Class opponents. In his 20 fights, has Calzaghe done the same? Lacy is one, and maybe Eubank. But that is 2 out of 20; a HUGE difference from 2 out of 5.

As for some of the fighters I mentioned - the point is that Joe could have made the fights happen (stepping up in weight, leaving Wales, etc) but he chose the easy option.

The Taylor offer for instance. $6m to fight in Wales - why would Calzaghe not consider going to the States instead for arguably more money? Taylor is a big draw and it would be (is) a big fight.

Taylor didnt offer Calazage money did he and Calazage is facing the more dangerous KEssler instead, hardly ducking Taylor is he?

Lets look at the world champions Calazages beaten:

Eubank - past prime
Reid - prime
Woodhall - near prime
Lacy - prime
Mitchell - near prime
Brewer - near prime

Your also ignoring the fact Hattons been around world level since around 2001/2002, Hatton will not be defending his title against the best in his division in 2015 - 10years after his first title fight, like Calazage has done (1997-2007).

I'm not sure why I bother, but.......

I see Hatton as being around World Level since the Tszyu fight. The WBU defences prior to that were against journeymen and top level Europeans, NOT World class fighters. The first true World class fighter was Tszyu.

Beating a prime Reid or Woodhall is commendable, but they can hardly be described as World Class opposition. The fighters that would have assured JC's place are the ones he didn't fight, not the ones he did (Lacy aside).

Finally, it's great that he's fighting Kessler and a win (as I expect) will play a major part in his legacy. This one fight is worth more than most of his defences of the WBO belt put together. At last he is taking a risk (albeit in the comfort of his back garden - did you really think he would have gone to Denmark for this one??) and should be commended for it. But that doesn't change the fact that most of his reign has been comfortable.

[nickd]

Going up a division and winning a title then moving back down to claim your spot as the top man at 140 is not legacy building? It's certainly more legacy building than beating Bika and Manfredo in the same time for the WBO belt...

Calzaghe has longevity in his favour but that is it, Hatton has beaten a guy at or near the top of the P4P lists at the time (Tszyu) and one at the very least on the fringes of it (Castillo).

If Calzaghe dominates Kessler I'm prepared to reconsider but as of now Hatton has achieved more in a much shorter time frame. Keep kissing Calzaghe's nuts all you like but like I say facts are facts. You won't find many on here agreeing Calzaghe has done more until he beats Kessler. Yes I doubted the fight would happen as did most people. Let's see them in the ring touching gloves and then I'll believe it's happening lets hope neither gets injured in the meantime.

Posts from you about Hatton post Tszyu and before Castillo.

So what the hell was the point of fighting Urango then? Hatton's post Tszyu career is a bit of a farce. Lets hope he can pull it out of the bag against Castillo. I certanly wouldn't bank on that given this weekends result Hatton looks to be a little overrated IMO.

Hamed's achievements way outweigh Hatton at the moment. Hamed cleaned out the division and but for ridiculous politics wouls have been the undisputed champion at 126. Hatton has won 1 big fight against Tszyu and although he has won belts here and there his comp level since has been decidedly average.

Yes, huge fish like Maussa, Collazo, Urango...

You demean Callazo as an Opponent yet you use him to say he's legacy building for Hatton?

Going back down to fight Urango Is hardly being the man at 10stone although he Is the champ for beating Tszyu.

Castillo wasn't P4p and had done nothing special since his Corrales fights, Corrales sounded more like a Gatti like fighter though anyway without the chin.

So because I have my own opinions I'm considered kissing nuts? I could say the same about your Hatton posts and I already mentioned how you contradicted yourself when I quoted your past posts.

Your lack of respect for my opinions clearly shows how limited you are.

At least Joe Vs Kessler Is more likely than Hatton Vs Floyd and Joe took less time to give us the fight we want.

So you've gone back through all my old posts? Get a life!

Hatton's opposition hasn't been the most stellar but he has achieved more than Calzaghe which is what we are debating not what I posted in the past..... nice try.

If there's one constant on boxrec you can't have an intelligent debate about anything Calzaghe related with you and your blinkered view. And you call me limited??? Hahaha.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

I'm not sure why I bother, but.......

I see Hatton as being around World Level since the Tszyu fight. The WBU defences prior to that were against journeymen and top level Europeans, NOT World class fighters. The first true World class fighter was Tszyu.

Beating a prime Reid or Woodhall is commendable, but they can hardly be described as World Class opposition. The fighters that would have assured JC's place are the ones he didn't fight, not the ones he did (Lacy aside).

Finally, it's great that he's fighting Kessler and a win (as I expect) will play a major part in his legacy. This one fight is worth more than most of his defences of the WBO belt put together. At last he is taking a risk (albeit in the comfort of his back garden - did you really think he would have gone to Denmark for this one??) and should be commended for it. But that doesn't change the fact that most of his reign has been comfortable.

The point is Hatton has pissed away his prime fighting easy fights since 2000-2005. You can't criticise Calazage and ignore Hattons padded record. You also can't say Calazages had a comfortable reign on his own terms and ignore the fact that Hatton handpicks fights with either old or unskilled fighters.

Reid and Woodall were world class WBC Champs. Reid even beat Otke

Calazages career has been full of disapointments with the big fights not coming off but this is not all his own fault. Now hes going for 1 of the biggest fights in boxing, lets hope he can pull it off.

[earsjohn]

I'm not sure why I bother, but.......

I see Hatton as being around World Level since the Tszyu fight. The WBU defences prior to that were against journeymen and top level Europeans, NOT World class fighters. The first true World class fighter was Tszyu.

Beating a prime Reid or Woodhall is commendable, but they can hardly be described as World Class opposition. The fighters that would have assured JC's place are the ones he didn't fight, not the ones he did (Lacy aside).

Finally, it's great that he's fighting Kessler and a win (as I expect) will play a major part in his legacy. This one fight is worth more than most of his defences of the WBO belt put together. At last he is taking a risk (albeit in the comfort of his back garden - did you really think he would have gone to Denmark for this one??) and should be commended for it. But that doesn't change the fact that most of his reign has been comfortable.

The point is Hatton has pissed away his prime fighting easy fights since 2000-2005. You can't criticise Calazage and ignore Hattons padded record. You also can't say Calazages had a comfortable reign on his own terms and ignore the fact that Hatton handpicks fights with either old or unskilled fighters.

Reid and Woodall were world class WBC Champs. Reid even beat Otke

Calazages career has been full of disapointments with the big fights not coming off but this is not all his own fault. Now hes going for 1 of the biggest fights in boxing, lets hope he can pull it off.

Well I think this is simply where we have to disgaree. I firmly beliweve that HAtton is currently in his prime and will be for the next 2 years. THis is when he needs to maximise his talents and chase the big fights (Mayweather and Cotto). Hattons record is indeed padded, no argument there, but since 2005 he has achieved more than JC in 10 years as a 'Champion'.

Reid and Woodhall may have been World Champs in name, and maybe they were world class given the division at the time, but they are nowhere near the class of the likes of Toney, Jones, Hopkins even Johnson and Taylor.

Reid did not beat Ottke. Just because you think he did, the facts are facts. One could apply the same logic and make anyone out to be a lot better or worse than they actually are.

As for fights not happening - they may not all have been Joe's fault, but he is the one consistent factor in the big fingts that could have been made but weren't. The others mentioned were all happy to test themselves against each other to prove who was the best. JC has never proven it, so the doubts will always remain.....If JC had beaten Ottke in the fight that may have been made then he would have been the best. He didn't and the fight wasn't. End of story.

[stujones]

What's so special abouy Judah? He's a hype job who has built his career on bowling over scrubs in quick order. The best fighter he ever beat was also ran DeMarcus Corley. Every time he stepped up to A class he got beat down. Hell, even mayweather, who isn't exactly a murderous puncher about 135, gave him a right mauling.

Eubank may not have been a truly elite fighter in terms of his opposition, but Judah is a poor example to cite.

Mayweather didn't give him a mauling and what about Cory Spinks as a career best win? What about Junior Witter?

I didn't compare Eubank to Judah directly. The comparison was made between Eubank and Tszyu best opposition (as Calzaghe's and Hatton's best victims)... and as far as Eubank's best opposition, only Nigel Benn's creditials outweigh Judah. Eubank only once beat an A class fighter. Judah has done more the Rochigiani, Watson, Henry fecking Wharton etc. Thats what I was citing... Not Judah doing better than Eubank or Benn.

As good as Michael Watson was - the mauling he took vs McCallum was every bit as bad as Judah vs Cotto.

Witter was an inexperienced late sub, that is not a creditable win, as Junior only turned up to make Zab look bad, nothing more.

I don't really rate spinks highly at all, but will admit this is a better win that the Corley win, however, let's not forget that he needed two bites of the cherry to beat the mediocre and feather fisted Spinks.

Judah did get a mauling, he looked very sorry for himself over the last third of the fight.

McCallum was a great fighter, and Watson was taking a big step up in class, there's no shame in that.

Judah has been hyped as a world beater his whole career, but has done little to establish those credentials to my mind.

I'm not a big fan of Judah as you can possibly tell.

Spinks mediocore? The guy was the undisputed Welterweight champion, he beat many peoples #1 Light Middle (debatable decision, but still if he was "mediocore" it wouldn't have been close). He also in the minds of many should be the Undisputed Middleweight champion now.

I admit he is light punching and might not be everyone's cup of tea - but you cannot argue with those creditials. Infact, the fact he is light punching just shows how good a boxer he is... so for Judah to outbox Spinks at times show something.

Believe it or not, I am not judah's biggest fan... Always tipped Hatton to do him easily. However, two of his defeats were very debatable on the cards (Spinks / Baldomir), and just like Watson vs McCallum.... there was no shame in his Mayweather, Cotto and Tszyu defeats.

PN - You have a point, however you have been saying "all" of the Eubank big wins - when there is only one that could be ARGUED is better than Judah - and only then way after Eubank fought Benn. Rochigiani and Watson don't come close to the achievements of Judah.

Plus, most people (not me) argue that Eubank is 1-1 with Benn and 1-1 with Watson, I do agree with the latter.

And that is just 1 fighter I am taking off the Tszyu resume. Not too mention guys with excellent resumes who Tszyu basically crushed (never to be the same fighter again)... guys like Reulas, Gonzalez, Hurtado etc.

[Arbachakov]

Watson was a far superior fighter than Judah, regardless of accomplishments(of which i don't see Judah's as impressive in any way).

Then again, i'm not a fan of Judah at all.A sloppy fighter with little toughness or ring savvy, that has often been touted as a waste of talent when what he really had was simply a flashy style.Nothing more.Certainly no real depth or finesse to him as a fighter.

Spinks is one of the worst Welter champions since John Stracey imo.The run of champions from Forrest onward has been largely sub-par.

[Max Molyneux]

Going up a division and winning a title then moving back down to claim your spot as the top man at 140 is not legacy building? It's certainly more legacy building than beating Bika and Manfredo in the same time for the WBO belt...

Calzaghe has longevity in his favour but that is it, Hatton has beaten a guy at or near the top of the P4P lists at the time (Tszyu) and one at the very least on the fringes of it (Castillo).

If Calzaghe dominates Kessler I'm prepared to reconsider but as of now Hatton has achieved more in a much shorter time frame. Keep kissing Calzaghe's nuts all you like but like I say facts are facts. You won't find many on here agreeing Calzaghe has done more until he beats Kessler. Yes I doubted the fight would happen as did most people. Let's see them in the ring touching gloves and then I'll believe it's happening lets hope neither gets injured in the meantime.

Posts from you about Hatton post Tszyu and before Castillo.

So what the hell was the point of fighting Urango then? Hatton's post Tszyu career is a bit of a farce. Lets hope he can pull it out of the bag against Castillo. I certanly wouldn't bank on that given this weekends result Hatton looks to be a little overrated IMO.

Hamed's achievements way outweigh Hatton at the moment. Hamed cleaned out the division and but for ridiculous politics wouls have been the undisputed champion at 126. Hatton has won 1 big fight against Tszyu and although he has won belts here and there his comp level since has been decidedly average.

Yes, huge fish like Maussa, Collazo, Urango...

You demean Callazo as an Opponent yet you use him to say he's legacy building for Hatton?

Going back down to fight Urango Is hardly being the man at 10stone although he Is the champ for beating Tszyu.

Castillo wasn't P4p and had done nothing special since his Corrales fights, Corrales sounded more like a Gatti like fighter though anyway without the chin.

So because I have my own opinions I'm considered kissing nuts? I could say the same about your Hatton posts and I already mentioned how you contradicted yourself when I quoted your past posts.

Your lack of respect for my opinions clearly shows how limited you are.

At least Joe Vs Kessler Is more likely than Hatton Vs Floyd and Joe took less time to give us the fight we want.

So you've gone back through all my old posts? Get a life!

Hatton's opposition hasn't been the most stellar but he has achieved more than Calzaghe which is what we are debating not what I posted in the past..... nice try.

If there's one constant on boxrec you can't have an intelligent debate about anything Calzaghe related with you and your blinkered view. And you call me limited??? Hahaha.

Get a life? Ermm, It's called debate and to prove my arguement. Whats the big deal? Man you post like you haven't had your hemeroid cream or something.

Yes were debating who's achieved more but you never thought like that before Castillo and thats why I went through your old posts, It's nothing to do with getting life?

One win over a big name does not say he's achieved more than Calzaghe's 20 defences Including unification, how can one big win be thought of like that?

Yes you are limited because you resort to petty shite like calling me blinkered because I share a different view than you and the lack of respect for others opinion. If I'm so blinkered then I would of been happy with him fighting Manfredo or someone like that, but Ive posted that I wasn't but being a fan of Calzaghe says I'm blinkered then my calling you limited was warranted.

Plus I don't deny Calzaghe has had bad fights either so your blinkered comment was bullshit.

If Hatton's opp hasn't been steller then how can he have achieved more? Hatton's contradicting when It comes to things like Witter too and won't even fight him either. Witter won a world title so why not Witter Instead of belt chasing guys like Urango? He said that before Tszyu which was kinda silly considering he wasn't world class yet.

Most people do that when I agree with some of Warren's points In something like an article for example.

Anything else to contradict?

[Max Molyneux]

Spinks Is not mediocre In my opinion.

People seem to hate him because he keeps distance hence why he's called a runner but I like smart boxing.

He maybe light punching but they still don't walk through him.

I thought he beat Taylor too.

[nickd]

Posts from you about Hatton post Tszyu and before Castillo.
You demean Callazo as an Opponent yet you use him to say he's legacy building for Hatton?

Going back down to fight Urango Is hardly being the man at 10stone although he Is the champ for beating Tszyu.

Castillo wasn't P4p and had done nothing special since his Corrales fights, Corrales sounded more like a Gatti like fighter though anyway without the chin.

So because I have my own opinions I'm considered kissing nuts? I could say the same about your Hatton posts and I already mentioned how you contradicted yourself when I quoted your past posts.

Your lack of respect for my opinions clearly shows how limited you are.

At least Joe Vs Kessler Is more likely than Hatton Vs Floyd and Joe took less time to give us the fight we want.

So you've gone back through all my old posts? Get a life!

Hatton's opposition hasn't been the most stellar but he has achieved more than Calzaghe which is what we are debating not what I posted in the past..... nice try.

If there's one constant on boxrec you can't have an intelligent debate about anything Calzaghe related with you and your blinkered view. And you call me limited??? Hahaha.

Get a life? Ermm, It's called debate and to prove my arguement. Whats the big deal? Man you post like you haven't had your hemeroid cream or something.

Yes were debating who's achieved more but you never thought like that before Castillo and thats why I went through your old posts, It's nothing to do with getting life?

One win over a big name does not say he's achieved more than Calzaghe's 20 defences Including unification, how can one big win be thought of like that?

Yes you are limited because you resort to petty shite like calling me blinkered because I share a different view than you and the lack of respect for others opinion. If I'm so blinkered then I would of been happy with him fighting Manfredo or someone like that, but Ive posted that I wasn't but being a fan of Calzaghe says I'm blinkered then my calling you limited was warranted.

Plus I don't deny Calzaghe has had bad fights either so your blinkered comment was bullshit.

If Hatton's opp hasn't been steller then how can he have achieved more? Hatton's contradicting when It comes to things like Witter too and won't even fight him either. Witter won a world title so why not Witter Instead of belt chasing guys like Urango? He said that before Tszyu which was kinda silly considering he wasn't world class yet.

Most people do that when I agree with some of Warren's points In something like an article for example.

Anything else to contradict?

You've really gone into one here.

Hatton's opponents can be less than stellar and he can still have achieved more than Calzaghe - of course that can be the case. Calzaghe has fought some real shite as champ way worse than Collazo, Urango....

Anyway we've voiced our opinions lets leave it at that, you seem to be hellbent on stirring shit up by trawling through my past posts etc!

As for being limited, you should perhaps get a third party to have a read through your posts and grammar for you and give you their opinion before you call other people that - seriously.

Have fun.

[Max Molyneux]

But Hatton does get over looked too much for what he gets away with because be beat Tszyu.

And you used Castillo to say he has achieved more than Calzaghe yet when I read through old posts you said It's obvious he picked Castillo at the right time.

I don't stir shit, the purpose of going through old posts was for debate only.Grammar Is Irrelevant and doesn't make anyone limited. I over did the post but I reckon It was still ok.

[bennie]

Has anyone mentioned their indentical records (43-0 [31] for Hatton and 43-0 [32], Calzaghe).
Maybe they're as good as each other.

[caster]

shame they aren´t the same weight. Calzaghe is very good and IMO would stand Ricky on his head.