mayorga vs vargas press conference punch up

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:07

Did everyone really call Cosme Rivera world class? It wasn't my impression personally, I was suprised he got a title shot v Judah having done not much.

Carbo · Post by **Carbo** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:09

Kilburn wrote:So it was only the uninformed that called Steve Molitor world class after he trounced Nicky Booth? How about Tshifhiwa Munyai, or Jackson Asiku? Apparently world class fighters so I keep reading, feasting on British domestic opposition.

Molitor is world class, and not just because he beat Michael Hunter.

Whatever the uninformed say, simply beating a British champion does not make you world class. The gap between the two levels is far, far too big to make that argument. It's simply not valid.

Mayorga aint world class because he keeps getting his head ping-ponged around the ring or is completely befuddled when he steps into world-class water. He's a good, international level boxer, but no more. And beating 50 British prospects wouldn't change that.

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:11

While we're on this topic, Sergio Martinez looked great and hasn't lost since his British sojourns, but still is nowhere near a title shot.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:16

Vargas beat Winky Wright (forget the 'robbed talk' it wasn't a bad decision), Quartey

Mayorga beat Forrest, Picollo, Lewis and possibly should have beat Spinks - the main fault of Mayorga is to move to 154/160 and fight much bigger punchers

Good fighters, top5 in the divisions they've campaigned in, ATGs NO, but very good none the less. Both past prime now

What would Hatton/Tyszu do against the Trinidad, Delahoya and Mosley that Vargas faced? Its not easy to win any of those

Carbo · Post by **Carbo** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:18

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Vargas beat Winky Wright (forget the 'robbed talk' it wasn't a bad decision), Quartey

Mayorga beat Forrest, Picollo, Lewis and possibly should have beat Spinks - the main fault of Mayorga is to move to 154/160 and fight much bigger punchers

Good fighters, top5 in the divisions they've campaigned in, ATGs NO

He should not have beaten Spinks, and should not have beaten Forrest the second time around, although that was far closer than the spinks effort.

And beating Andrew six heads Lewis -- highly touted, but never world class -- 6 years ago means nothing when considering his world class credentials now. Anyway, I'm off.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:19

Carbo wrote: Whatever the uninformed say, simply beating a British champion does not make you world class. The gap between the two levels is far, far too big to make that argument. It's simply not valid.

The point I'm really making is, sometimes the gap is so big, the destruction so swift and effortless, that you couldn't sensibly describe it as anything other than a world class dismissal of a domestic class fighter. I think the best of Mayorga would have dismissed the best of Anderson in short brutal, world class fashion.

We all know the criteria for world class is a very grey area.

Carbo · Post by **Carbo** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:22

Kilburn wrote:
Carbo wrote: Whatever the uninformed say, simply beating a British champion does not make you world class. The gap between the two levels is far, far too big to make that argument. It's simply not valid.
The point I'm really making is, sometimes the gap is so big, the destruction so swift and effortless, that you couldn't sensibly describe it as anything other than a world class dismissal of a domestic class fighter. I think the best of Mayorga would have dismissed the best of Anderson in short brutal, world class fashion.

We all know the criteria for world class is a very grey area.

It may have been fast, but, bearing in mind this is Mayorga, it wouldn't have been world class. He would have clubbed and outstrenghted Anderson. That's it. But I don't see how that has any relevance on his world class potential. I really don't.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:22

I don't normally like the "he beat him, who beat him, who beat him" methodology, but if Six Heads convincingly stopped James Page, who went to hell and back to beat Jose Luis Lopez (surely a world class fighter), surely this makes Six Heads world class himself?

Carbo · Post by **Carbo** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:25

Kilburn wrote:I don't normally like the "he beat him, who beat him who beat him" methodology, but if Six Heads convincingly stopped James Page, who went to hell and back to beat Jose Luis Lopez (surely a world class fighter), surely this makes Six Heads world class himself?

Don't know and don't care. Knocking out somebody who may or may not have been world class 6 years ago has little bearing on his world class credentials now. And, much as I'd like to continue this little tete-a-tete, I'm completely under the thumb and have been tasked with wasking the dishes and generally cleaning up the apartment before my girlfriend arrives home with a workmate.

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:27

Nobody's saying they're world class NOW, but nobody can surely disagree they were ONCE.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:30

Carbo wrote:Knocking out somebody who may or may not have been world class 6 years ago has little bearing on his world class credentials now.

It does if you're saying Mayorga has never been world class!

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:33

I've never rated Vargas but its easy to make a case for his 'world class' pretentions.

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:36

Kilburn - no I wouldn't, and since when was Kevin Anderson world class?

Carbo · Post by **Carbo** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:38

Sometimes, a fighter is fleetingly considered to be world class. He puts a string of credible victories together, but then falls short.

In the end, Mayorga suggested he might have been world class, but then proved he wasn't. When considering class, it's always the long run that counts. Just ask Bernard Hopkins, who for years walked around as a quality fighter with no recognition, but then won a title, put together a string of defences and broke into the world class club late in his career, proving he was world class all along.

Mayorga has done the opposite.

Now I must go.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:40

Captain Hook wrote:Kilburn - no I wouldn't, and since when was Kevin Anderson world class?

He isn't.

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:43

Kilburn wrote:
Captain Hook wrote:Kilburn - no I wouldn't, and since when was Kevin Anderson world class?
He isn't.

And that was never his point!

Nobody thought David Walker was world class, but they all said Roman Karmazin was after beating him.

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:44

Amen to that...

Mayorga was operating at world class and you could argue he still is, but all I'm saying is he trash talks - especially in the case of DLH - then gets his arse handed to him...

He's a lunatic and a colourful character, but he's still a c***

I've never liked Varagas, though I can respect he did have ability. Never liked him since he was in Garcia's corner for the Corrales fight....

Proper gangsta (not)

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:45

Who is "They all"

Don't tar everyone with the same brush...

So people were saying Mpush Makambi was as well? Not me....

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:51

The trash talking never bothers me that much, it's not like Vargas has to share a house with Mayorga. He can go away and do his training and just concentrate on the fight.

I assume this fight is on PPV? Nobody is going to give Mayorga a penny after he retires, might as well get as much hype going as he can. If he makes more money out of being the bad guy then good luck to him.

I remember Camacho doing the hard sell for his fight with De La Hoya. At the end of his career he gets himself $3m for a fight he had no chance of winning. Sterling effort.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:53

This world class business is hard.

Is Cliff Couser? Was Monte Barrett? Is Jameel McCline? What was Andrew Golota?

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:58

DavidPayne wrote:This world class business is hard.

Too right. I defy anyone to put it into words and not be picked apart afterwards.

Boxing News heralded Junior Witter as "world class" after he beat Alan Bosworth. That he went on to prove as such, more or less, is beside the point.

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 13 Jul 2007, 10:03

You can have a world class performance/result against somebody who isn't world class.

Also, any definition of world class has to take into consideration of the environment of the time. For example, a world class heavyweight of today would have been a fringe contender at best in the 70s.

I think you can simply say a world class fighter is somebody who resides and succeeds within a genuine world top 10 at any given time, regardless of the division's/era's comparative quality.

Also, in all but the most extreme examples (Luis Santana), anybody who wins a major world championship can be considered world class at the time.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 13 Jul 2007, 10:10

I'm no fuirther forward after that Ollie.

World class is about ability not belts, era or performances.

To me

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » 13 Jul 2007, 10:10

.....there was only one world class fighter and that was Wayne Wheeler, the rest just don't cut the mustard so let's put that argument to bed

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 13 Jul 2007, 10:35

I'm really looking forward to this fight, not because I think it will be a high quality matchup, but because the 2 guys hate each other so much.

It reminds me of the 1985 British middleweight title fight between Mark Kaylor & Errol Christie.

Those 2 despised each other & had some explosive press conferences & they combined to have a cracking fight.