benitez vs hagler

Alabama_Man · Post by **Alabama_Man** » 12 Jul 2007, 22:49

Decagon wrote:Farr was pretty shitty for a #1 contender. Kind of like your good buddy "Semen."

Calling Farr "shitty" just means you're stupid and wrong. I don't really care if you want to give off that kind of impression. Stop following me.

Elton John · Post by **Elton John** » 13 Jul 2007, 00:50

Alabama_Man wrote:
Elton John wrote:
Alabama_Man wrote:Benitez would lose but it wouldn't be a blow out. If you think Hagler would KO Benitez in 3-4 rounds you simply don't know much about boxing.

Hagler would manage to win 10-11 rounds in a wide decision or score a late stoppage (13th-14th round) based on activity, but he would by no means blow out Benitez, that's ridiculous.
Except for Palomin-O who was just a waste of time in boxing.
After I read this statement, I knew immediately that you are just stupid and don't know much about boxing. Thanks for saving me the time of reading the rest of your shitty post.

But you probably read it all anyways. You shouldn't blame me you should blame Palomin-O for quitting instead of improving his game.

My assessment of Carlos may have seemed harsh but any one who's seen him, we all know he was very average performer.

BTW, If you ever watched Carlos in those old Coors commercials you might have seen Palomin-O getting his laughs while making cracks at Duran's no-mas incident, using it for one of his comedy lines.

I would think Carlos would be the last person in the world to mock Duran (in front of the public no less) considering his own dismal performance against Hands of stone and the fact that it was Duran who retired him.

he was ordinary at best but for him evidently, that was enough. He had a steady feast of tomato cans during his championship reign but when he finally met up with someone who wasn't a second rater, he found out he couldn't really fight and for him the disillusionment was too much for him to take so he he abruptly exited from the sport. And that was after only two world class opponents-Benitez and Duran.

He couldn't even hit Wilfred on the ropes and was counterpunched silly round after round. Bruce Curry and Harold Weston fared much better than Carlos which should tell you something. In fact, I believe that Palomin-o basically made Benitez.

Defensive genius my eye! palomin-O had an offense that was very readable and easy to ride against.

To confirm my assessment of him I looked at the Duran fight which I need not go into. To put it bluntly, he sucked

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 13 Jul 2007, 07:54

Decagon wrote:Farr was pretty shitty for a #1 contender. Kind of like your good buddy "Semen."

He did a lot better against Joe Louis than almost all of his other challengers

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 13 Jul 2007, 08:30

Benitez should have had even a better career than he did, but he still had a great career.

His win over Palomino didn't "make" his career. He also beat Cervantes at Jr Welter and of course Duran at Jr Middleweight. He lost to Hearns and Leonard but certainly wasn't embarrassed. He also had several wins over good fighters such as Shields,Ranzany,Santos, and Hope.

Why anyone would say that Palomino "sucked" is baffling. No he wasn't the best welterweight of all time. However, if you "suck", you aren't going to be a world champion who makes 7 successful title defenses.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 13 Jul 2007, 08:32

While I would say that Palomino was better than an "average" fighter, he is also probably one of the most over rated fighters that I can recall.

Elton John · Post by **Elton John** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:07

Ambling Alp wrote:Benitez should have had even a better career than he did, but he still had a great career.

His win over Palomino didn't "make" his career. He also beat Cervantes at Jr Welter and of course Duran at Jr Middleweight. He lost to Hearns and Leonard but certainly wasn't embarrassed. He also had several wins over good fighters such as Shields,Ranzany,Santos, and Hope.

Why anyone would say that Palomino "sucked" is baffling. No he wasn't the best welterweight of all time. However, if you "suck", you aren't going to be a world champion who makes 7 successful title defenses.

I agree the Duran fight helped give Wilfred more clout but i think it had less to do with wilfred's brilliance and more to do with Duran's lack of fire. Does anyone think the version who whipped leonard wouldn't have done at least the same to Wilfred? That was roughly the same version who sent a bruised and beaten Palo-min-O packing from the sport and into the world of commercial advertising.

Look at the 1982 version-gentle as a lamb. What was there to fear? Even Kirkland Laing had his number.

The difference between Wilfred winning and losing was dependent on the opponent. In Duran, he had a lethargic unmotivated opponent in front of him which enabled him to take an easy win. With Hearns he had a young, fast, up and coming great whom he could scarcely win a round from.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:18

Palomino was rugged, durable and skilled. He is a good win on anyone's record. Benitez only got a split decision over him.

Benitez is something of an enigma. He had a great defence but was a known poor trainer who peaked early and outgrew his best division pretty quickly. I don't see him as being durable enough to take on the best at 154 or 160 with any success.

Duran, post Leonard II, never beat another slick or speedy fighter. At 135 in his pomp, Duran could slow down and stop these guys. By the time he got to 147-160 he was too slow, did not have the stamina to maintain a high punch output and was up against naturally bigger men. He had to rely on people who came at him, who he could slip and counter.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 13 Jul 2007, 11:58

Just wanted to address some comments about Benitez:

Duran wasn't unmotivated against Benitez. There was bad blood between the two and he defintely wanted to beat Benitez. Benitez would have beaten the Duran that beat Leonard. He fought a smarter fight than Leonard did in his first fight with Duran.

At the age of 17, Benitez won the title from Cervantes, one of the best Jr welterweights of all time. For some reason he seldom gets much credit for this.
Benitez did prove that he was very good at 154. In addition to beating Duran, he also scored a devastating knockout against Maurice Hope and beat Carlos Santos.
He did much more than scarcely win a round against Hearns. He won a few rounds and was competitive.

Benitez wasn't consistent and his career didn't last as long as it should have. However, for several years he was one of the top pfp fighters in the world.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 13 Jul 2007, 12:02

Ambling Alp wrote:Just wanted to address some comments about Benitez:

Duran wasn't unmotivated against Benitez. There was bad blood between the two and he defintely wanted to beat Benitez. Benitez would have beaten the Duran that beat Leonard. He fought a smarter fight than Leonard did in his first fight with Duran.

At the age of 17, Benitez won the title from Cervantes, one of the best Jr welterweights of all time. For some reason he seldom gets much credit for this.
Benitez did prove that he was very good at 154. In addition to beating Duran, he also scored a devastating knockout against Maurice Hope and beat Carlos Santos.
He did much more than scarcely win a round against Hearns. He won a few rounds and was competitive.

Benitez wasn't consistent and his career didn't last as long as it should have. However, for several years he was one of the top pfp fighters in the world.

Alp, you raise some excellent points regarding Hope and Santos but Benitez would not have beaten Duran at 147 or 140.

Alabama_Man · Post by **Alabama_Man** » 13 Jul 2007, 12:36

dr_devious wrote:
Decagon wrote:Farr was pretty shitty for a #1 contender. Kind of like your good buddy "Semen."
He did a lot better against Joe Louis than almost all of his other challengers

True, Louis I believe was on a KO streak of 8+ fights until he met Carr who out fought him during some of the late rounds.

Decagon just doesn't know very much about boxing.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 13 Jul 2007, 15:09

Ezzard wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:Just wanted to address some comments about Benitez:

Duran wasn't unmotivated against Benitez. There was bad blood between the two and he defintely wanted to beat Benitez. Benitez would have beaten the Duran that beat Leonard. He fought a smarter fight than Leonard did in his first fight with Duran.

At the age of 17, Benitez won the title from Cervantes, one of the best Jr welterweights of all time. For some reason he seldom gets much credit for this.
Benitez did prove that he was very good at 154. In addition to beating Duran, he also scored a devastating knockout against Maurice Hope and beat Carlos Santos.
He did much more than scarcely win a round against Hearns. He won a few rounds and was competitive.

Benitez wasn't consistent and his career didn't last as long as it should have. However, for several years he was one of the top pfp fighters in the world.
Alp, you raise some excellent points regarding Hope and Santos but Benitez would not have beaten Duran at 147 or 140.

If Benitez was at his best (admittedly not a given), I don't see why not.

theone · Post by **theone** » 13 Jul 2007, 17:05

If Benitez was at his best (admittedly not a given), I don't see why not.

Agreed. Benitez had the style to potentially beat Duran whether he was at his best or not.

Alp is right. Benitez fought a smarter fight than Leonard did in the first Duran fight when he tried to out macho Duran. With his lesson learned Leonard humiliated Duran the second time around.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 16 Jul 2007, 08:17

Decagon wrote:
dr_devious wrote:
Decagon wrote:Farr was pretty shitty for a #1 contender. Kind of like your good buddy "Semen."
He did a lot better against Joe Louis than almost all of his other challengers
That actually brings up a philosophical point. I simply don't like to rank fighters based on fights they obviously lost. Here's how it usually ends up:
Tommy Farr loses a close one to Joe Louis, and gets ranked #1 because of it, above plenty of fighters better than him. His stay at the top is short-lived.

Razor Ruddock clearly loses to Mike Tyson twice, and he gets a #3 ranking based on it (behind Holyfield and Lewis, and above Bowe). He gets stopped easily by Lewis.

Andrew Golota clearly loses to Riddick Bowe twice, and gets a top-5 ranking. Lewis blows him out in one, and he loses every major fight he has from then on, quitting repeatedly.

Vitali Klitschko clearly loses to Lennox Lewis. He won about half the rounds on my scorecard. Ring magazine makes him their champion after he beats a fat loser and a 38-year-old golfer. He never has another significant fight.
It's one thing if it's a controversial decision, but Louis clearly beat Farr.

Ok, but Tommy Farr still did much better against Joe Louis than the other contenders in that period. Only Farr and Godoy heard the final bell in almost 10 years when challenging Joe Louis. I agree this doesnt make them the numbers 2 and 3 heavyweights of the 30s, but does make them two of the best challengers of the period.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 16 Jul 2007, 14:09

I do agree with Decagon that sometimes people go a little overbaord when someone gives the champion or a top contender an unexpectedly tough fight. They shouldn't automatically leap frog in the rankings over several other fighters based on that one performance alone.

However it should be one factor that should in their favor when rating him. For example, if you are the #10 challenger and you give the champion a tough fight, I could see you moving up a couple of spots. However, you shouldn't now be the #1 challenger.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 16 Jul 2007, 17:16

theone wrote:
If Benitez was at his best (admittedly not a given), I don't see why not.
Agreed. Benitez had the style to potentially beat Duran whether he was at his best or not.

Alp is right. Benitez fought a smarter fight than Leonard did in the first Duran fight when he tried to out macho Duran. With his lesson learned Leonard humiliated Duran the second time around.

He humiliated Duran when Duran was not at his very best. In Montreal, Leonard did not had an answer for anything he tried to do. Duran completely outslicked him and whupped him good

With Benitez, the fight was at 154, not at 147 or 140 or at 135 where Duran's skills were very underrated. At 154, even Kirkland Laing beat him...10 pounds lighter, it would have been a different story.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 17 Jul 2007, 06:58

theone wrote:
If Benitez was at his best (admittedly not a given), I don't see why not.
Agreed. Benitez had the style to potentially beat Duran whether he was at his best or not.

Alp is right. Benitez fought a smarter fight than Leonard did in the first Duran fight when he tried to out macho Duran. With his lesson learned Leonard humiliated Duran the second time around.

How do we know what Leonard's game plan was? He openly admits that he was almost KO'd in the 2nd and by the time he fully came to it was a few rounds down the line, his face was swollen and Duran had hurt him to the body.

Leonard fought as he did for a number of reasons.

1) He was bigger, stronger and more powerful than Duran. He anticipated being able to do as he pleased with him (not an unreasonable assumption).

2) Duran was beating him to the punch when they fought at any distance. Leonard also missed more punches than in any other fight in his career. Leonard went inside with Duran so he wouldn't get caught again like he did in the 2nd round and so that he could actually hit his opponent.

Leonard got caught. He was holding on for his life. It was only 2 rounds into a 15 round fight and he had to improvise. He fought the second fight differently but that's not why he won. If he'd have gone toe-to-toe in the second fight he'd have knocked Duran out.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 17 Jul 2007, 07:00

Ambling Alp wrote:
Ezzard wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:Just wanted to address some comments about Benitez:

Duran wasn't unmotivated against Benitez. There was bad blood between the two and he defintely wanted to beat Benitez. Benitez would have beaten the Duran that beat Leonard. He fought a smarter fight than Leonard did in his first fight with Duran.

At the age of 17, Benitez won the title from Cervantes, one of the best Jr welterweights of all time. For some reason he seldom gets much credit for this.
Benitez did prove that he was very good at 154. In addition to beating Duran, he also scored a devastating knockout against Maurice Hope and beat Carlos Santos.
He did much more than scarcely win a round against Hearns. He won a few rounds and was competitive.

Benitez wasn't consistent and his career didn't last as long as it should have. However, for several years he was one of the top pfp fighters in the world.
Alp, you raise some excellent points regarding Hope and Santos but Benitez would not have beaten Duran at 147 or 140.
If Benitez was at his best (admittedly not a given), I don't see why not.

Although he never fought at 140 i think we can sssume that Duran would be a more formidable puncher at the weight than he was at 147. Duran was a clear level above Benitez even though Benitez was an excellent fighter.

funso banjo baby · Post by **funso banjo baby** » 19 Jul 2007, 08:59

silly thread

hagler is supreme

markl · Post by **markl** » 19 Jul 2007, 12:50

Ezzard wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:
Ezzard wrote: Alp, you raise some excellent points regarding Hope and Santos but Benitez would not have beaten Duran at 147 or 140.
If Benitez was at his best (admittedly not a given), I don't see why not.
Although he never fought at 140 i think we can sssume that Duran would be a more formidable puncher at the weight than he was at 147. Duran was a clear level above Benitez even though Benitez was an excellent fighter.

I think Monroe Brooks was at 40. Stick Benitez in Montreal and he gets stopped.

Leonard had no choice but to fight Duran's fight. He was relentless, nobody was going to stick and move against that version of manos de piedra.

The second fight was close. Duran was getting the better of the round he quit in. Leonard may have been slightly ahead, but he was far from dominant.