If its not Hatton next, then this has got to happen.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 15 Jul 2007, 17:27

I reckon that's the way to beat Paul Williams too.

Carbo · Post by **Carbo** » 15 Jul 2007, 17:52

Mayweather's drifted increasingly into stick-and-move mode. In his early days, I would step in more and unload with combinations, especially once he had gotten the measure of an opponent or his foe would start to tire. Lots of early big fights he had he really was quite ruthless and used his handspeed to great effect.

These days -- and I think it's because he feels he isn't strong enough now he's stepped up in weight -- he tends to dance and move and pot shot, winning because of his wonderful defence and amazing speed and accuracy.

Sorry, but that aint going to be enough against the likes of Hatton. If Hatton can stay on balance when he's hit, he can swarm and smother and cause Mayweather huge trouble through his sheer physicality and volume of work. Of course, Mayweather has the ability to keep him off balance and pick him off with combinations, but it'll be interesting to see if he can in the face of the pressure.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 15 Jul 2007, 18:08

I don't believe Hatton has a cat in hells chance of beating Mayweather. He just wouldn't find the target enough. Hit and grab tactics will see him punished every time.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 15 Jul 2007, 20:37

Carbo wrote:That's one thing that people forget. Some criticise Hatton's opposition, but it's been a huge amount better than Mayweather's over their respective last six.

Judah was acceptable, but not much more given his huge inconsistencies. Oscar was a good choice, but he's well past his best, and the fight was more about the size difference than anything. What was astonishing was that is was the first time Mayweather had faced an opponent with a realistic chance of beating him for 5 years.

Sosa, Brussles, Mitchell -- all of them might have been acceptable as a one off, as would Gatti, as a crowd pleasing, money making affair. But in combination they're abysmal for a man of Floyd's exceptional ability.

Sosa and Brussles, I agree with. Mitchel was okay in a role to test the waters at 147 - pretty much on a par with the unproven Collazo in that respect.

Baldomir was the MAN at 147 - whether you like him or not.. to be in the "reckoning" to be the #1 at 147, he needed to beat him. Note, thats different than proving himself beyond doubt the #1... cause in that case he needed to beat Mosley, Margarito etc aswell. However, beating Mosley/Margarito etc alone would mean he would still be considered #2 untill he beat Baldomir.

Shane Mosley aside, Zab Judah was considered the most skill full of the Welters - a bit of a toss up between him, Mosley and Margarito as too who will give him the most problems. Judah vs Mayweather was considered a battle of the pound 4 pounders when it was originally signed (before Zab lost).

DLH was and is a legend and a fantastic Light Middleweight - some of his finest wins and performances have come at that weight. Irrespective of if you think DLH is a part time fighter and not in love with the sport anymore... his performance vs Mayweather showed he wasn't there to make up the numbers and he is still very much in the premiership of fighters and should be easily in the P4P top ten.

Gatti, whilst not near considered too Hatton/Tszyu in terms being the #1 in the devision was an exiting fighter IN GOOD FORM and beating some decent names. Lets not forget, he was early in his career in many P4P top 10 lists - and many people seemed to think he was back in that form. Aside from Tszyu/Hatton, who else could Mayweather have faced... Gatti was more established, fighting equally and impressive vs similar level opponents as Cotto... and was generally more established and better than Harris/Mitchell.

So all in all, whilst I don't think Mayweather has matched the Tszyu win and his opponents could have been better... I think they compare favourably to Hatton's last 6.

Judah more proven than Collazo, Gatti better than Maussa and Urango.. It could be argued that DLH was younger, fresher and overall more dangerous than Tszyu (cause he had a size advantage) - although not as universally recongised as the #1 in the devision granted. Brusseles and Olivera are on a par... Castillo was a great win, no doubt - but again was he caught at the right time and at the wrong weight.

Lets look at their last 6 opponents.

Hatton
Olivera - Tough, limited fighter over the hill.
Tszyu - Cannot fault #1 in the devision and in the P4P hunt.
Maussa - Champion - but simply was loaning a spot in the top 10... Realistically not Top 20... Not ever considered the main champion.
Collazo - Good, put unproven boxer at the new weight.
Urango - Read Maussa.
Castillo - Number 2 in the devision, but former Super Feather and the wrong side of 30 with many miles on the clock.

Mayweather
Brussles - Not much cop, frsher than Olivera but with less pedigree.
Gatti - Arguably #2 in the devision (see Castillo), in a good run of form, naturally bigger than Mayweather... two aspects that Castillo didn't have.
Mitchell - More proven than Collazo, but on the slide no doubt.
Judah - Considered one of the finest offensive fighters out there, could give (and did give) the sometimes considered light punching Mayweather problems. Whilst not the man at the devision at the time, was considered arguably the most skilled of the champions
Baldomir - Wouldn't argue that he could be seen as similar to Maussa and Urango in terms of ability... However, he was considered the main champion - a fundenmental difference.
DLH - Legend.

Overall, I give Mayweather the edge as a course of 6 fights.

Carbo · Post by **Carbo** » 16 Jul 2007, 00:12

Perhaps I have been a little harsh, especially when considering Baldomir. I don't agree with your assessment of Mitchell -- who was sliding fast and was pretty cynical -- Gatti, who got the fight because of the fans and money he brought to the table, or Judah, who had been exposed as a front runner who would fold if things weren't going his way.

Anyway, I concede the point that I have judged harsly, but it's still not a good run for a supposed P4P number 1, especially when you consider Sosa and N'Dou before that. Mayweather effectively skipped 140.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 16 Jul 2007, 08:12

Carbo wrote:Perhaps I have been a little harsh, especially when considering Baldomir. I don't agree with your assessment of Mitchell -- who was sliding fast and was pretty cynical -- Gatti, who got the fight because of the fans and money he brought to the table, or Judah, who had been exposed as a front runner who would fold if things weren't going his way.

Anyway, I concede the point that I have judged harsly, but it's still not a good run for a supposed P4P number 1, especially when you consider Sosa and N'Dou before that. Mayweather effectively skipped 140.

With that I agree with, I was dissapointed that Mayweather hadn't fought Cotto, Hatton, Tsyu at 140... That was a cracking devision. However, I think it edges Hatton who now might even be considered #3 P4P.. so his comp must improve also.

On a side note - I think Collazo is fighting Mitchell in an eliminator contest at 154... Could be interesting. The hidings Mitchell have taken of late have been against Tszyu, Mayweather, and Williams - no great shame in that.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 16 Jul 2007, 08:33

Terry D wrote:I think the commentary was very poor. Williams won round eight for me whilst the US-team carried on talking about Margarito's momentum from the previous round and they seemed to effectively give Margarito every middle round based on this perception.

Williams won because he had tough rounds in the 7th and 11th then came back and won the next round.

I like Williams, I wish he was an orthodox fighter, he would be awesome to watch like that.

Agree with all of that.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 16 Jul 2007, 11:12

stujones wrote:
Carbo wrote:That's one thing that people forget. Some criticise Hatton's opposition, but it's been a huge amount better than Mayweather's over their respective last six.

Judah was acceptable, but not much more given his huge inconsistencies. Oscar was a good choice, but he's well past his best, and the fight was more about the size difference than anything. What was astonishing was that is was the first time Mayweather had faced an opponent with a realistic chance of beating him for 5 years.

Sosa, Brussles, Mitchell -- all of them might have been acceptable as a one off, as would Gatti, as a crowd pleasing, money making affair. But in combination they're abysmal for a man of Floyd's exceptional ability.
Sosa and Brussles, I agree with. Mitchel was okay in a role to test the waters at 147 - pretty much on a par with the unproven Collazo in that respect.

Baldomir was the MAN at 147 - whether you like him or not.. to be in the "reckoning" to be the #1 at 147, he needed to beat him. Note, thats different than proving himself beyond doubt the #1... cause in that case he needed to beat Mosley, Margarito etc aswell. However, beating Mosley/Margarito etc alone would mean he would still be considered #2 untill he beat Baldomir.

Shane Mosley aside, Zab Judah was considered the most skill full of the Welters - a bit of a toss up between him, Mosley and Margarito as too who will give him the most problems. Judah vs Mayweather was considered a battle of the pound 4 pounders when it was originally signed (before Zab lost).

DLH was and is a legend and a fantastic Light Middleweight - some of his finest wins and performances have come at that weight. Irrespective of if you think DLH is a part time fighter and not in love with the sport anymore... his performance vs Mayweather showed he wasn't there to make up the numbers and he is still very much in the premiership of fighters and should be easily in the P4P top ten.

Gatti, whilst not near considered too Hatton/Tszyu in terms being the #1 in the devision was an exiting fighter IN GOOD FORM and beating some decent names. Lets not forget, he was early in his career in many P4P top 10 lists - and many people seemed to think he was back in that form. Aside from Tszyu/Hatton, who else could Mayweather have faced... Gatti was more established, fighting equally and impressive vs similar level opponents as Cotto... and was generally more established and better than Harris/Mitchell.

So all in all, whilst I don't think Mayweather has matched the Tszyu win and his opponents could have been better... I think they compare favourably to Hatton's last 6.

Judah more proven than Collazo, Gatti better than Maussa and Urango.. It could be argued that DLH was younger, fresher and overall more dangerous than Tszyu (cause he had a size advantage) - although not as universally recongised as the #1 in the devision granted. Brusseles and Olivera are on a par... Castillo was a great win, no doubt - but again was he caught at the right time and at the wrong weight.

Lets look at their last 6 opponents.

Hatton
Olivera - Tough, limited fighter over the hill.
Tszyu - Cannot fault #1 in the devision and in the P4P hunt.
Maussa - Champion - but simply was loaning a spot in the top 10... Realistically not Top 20... Not ever considered the main champion.
Collazo - Good, put unproven boxer at the new weight.
Urango - Read Maussa.
Castillo - Number 2 in the devision, but former Super Feather and the wrong side of 30 with many miles on the clock.

Mayweather
Brussles - Not much cop, frsher than Olivera but with less pedigree.
Gatti - Arguably #2 in the devision (see Castillo), in a good run of form, naturally bigger than Mayweather... two aspects that Castillo didn't have.
Mitchell - More proven than Collazo, but on the slide no doubt.
Judah - Considered one of the finest offensive fighters out there, could give (and did give) the sometimes considered light punching Mayweather problems. Whilst not the man at the devision at the time, was considered arguably the most skilled of the champions
Baldomir - Wouldn't argue that he could be seen as similar to Maussa and Urango in terms of ability... However, he was considered the main champion - a fundenmental difference.
DLH - Legend.

Overall, I give Mayweather the edge as a course of 6 fights.

No no no no no! Gatti is just TOTALLY unaccepable! Their is no spin that you can put on it to say that he was a decent opponent. The absolute FACT is that Gatti has never beaten a world class opponent in his whole career. Ffs ESPECIALLY when Floyd fought him. DO NOT bring up a old and fat JJ Leija.

Ok, Mitchell. An old lightweight with no punch at the end of his career. No amount spin can make Mitchell sound like even a decent opponent for a supposed p4p king.

For you saying Zab was the most skillful of welters he was also the most fragile and inconsistent one. The dudes not even a real welterweight. Zab is barely even a light-welterweight. Zab is a muscled up lightweight. Zab has a punchers chance in most fights but thats it. If he doesn't land early then forget about it. Another guy with the wrong style to beat Floyd.

Yes Baldomir may have held the titles but its pretty damn obvious that Margarito was the man in this division. 37 year old Carlos was tailor made to lose to Floyd. This was a no risk fight. The guys who would be a threat to Floyd are REAL welterweights with REAL welterweight punches. Carlos had size but couldn't punch to save his life and at 37 could only fight in spurts. Easy money and another no risk fight.

Roberto Duran's a legend also but it doesn't mean he would be much cop in the ring these days. Fact is Oscar had lost basically his last 3 out of 4 fights. The guy is a part time fighter with a business to run. He's also a former featherweight and another guy with a comfortable style for Floyd to beat.

Wake up and see Floyds record for the hand picked trash that it really is. No amount of spin can disguise the poor opposition that the supposed unbeatable p4p king has been fighting. Floyd's record is NOTHING compared to guys like Pacquaio, Barrera and Morales.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 16 Jul 2007, 12:09

Oh Yawn, Left Hook happy.

Yeah, DLH not much cop these days.

Yeah, Gatti never beating a world class opponent... Yeah he was not accepted - of course. Of Course Gabe Reulas was crap aswell, yeah Tracy Harris Patterson was shit too. The ONLY reason why people gave Castillo more of a chance vs Hatton, than Gatti did vs Mayweather - was because of the form of the opponent... not their own skill level at 140.

Yeah, Margarito with all those fantastic title defences was the man at 147. You say Gatti aint had any wins in world class... whereas Margarito has had tons! Ummm aside from Antonio Diaz - there was not one remotely in world class. Oh yeah, Daniel Santos!!

Yeah, Zab Judah is a Lightweight.

And you say I am the one doing the spinning.

Even the original poster who brought up the arguement said he was being harsh.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 16 Jul 2007, 14:14

Gatti really hasn't beat a world class opponent. I'd hardly call Ruelas and Patterson world class. Nothing but decent fighters. It's funny that you refuse to see the facts that are staring you right in the face. Journeymen that got dealt with by real world class fighters used to give Gatti HELL.

And Oscar isn't much cop these days and its easy to see. Its on paper as well actually.

And Margarito was the man until the weekend. I don't want to even think of the mess that Antonio would have left your boy Gatti in had they ever fought. The names in this division stayed the fornicate away from Antonio and thats why he doesn't have that big name win on his record.

The difference is Antonio doesn't have the pick of who he fights unlike the Mayweathers, Gatti's and Judah's of the world.

So you just stay in your own little world were Gatti is world class, Mayweather has fought good opponents and Oscar is still a great fighter.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 16 Jul 2007, 14:47

Lefthookhappy19 wrote:Gatti really hasn't beat a world class opponent. I'd hardly call Ruelas and Patterson world class. Nothing but decent fighters. It's funny that you refuse to see the facts that are staring you right in the face. Journeymen that got dealt with by real world class fighters used to give Gatti HELL.

And Oscar isn't much cop these days and its easy to see. Its on paper as well actually.

And Margarito was the man until the weekend. I don't want to even think of the mess that Antonio would have left your boy Gatti in had they ever fought. The names in this division stayed the eff away from Antonio and thats why he doesn't have that big name win on his record.

The difference is Antonio doesn't have the pick of who he fights unlike the Mayweathers, Gatti's and Judah's of the world.

So you just stay in your own little world were Gatti is world class, Mayweather has fought good opponents and Oscar is still a great fighter.

Talk about spinning, Gatti was ona pretty impressive run of form. ever heard of Dorin? Some ranked him the top lightweight after Mayweather, the 1 Mayweather was accused of avoiding. Gatti ko'd him in the second with a bodyshot. Gatti ko'd Leija. He'd previously beat Ruelas, Patterson, Ward.

So Judah and Mitchell weren't much cop? Hattons Tyszu win must be pretty poor then because they were Tyszus 2 biggest wins. Cotto must be a protected poor fighter too because the rusty Judah he fought is by far and away his best fight to date

Delahoya 'lost 3 of his last 4 did he'? NO, 2 of his last 4, if you want to take away his Sturm win why not give him the Mosley fight other than bias? And how many fighters south of 154 would beat any from Hopkins, Sturm, Mosley, Margarito? Very few and we can say without doubt Margarito and Hatton would do well to pick up 1 win against those 4.

As for Margarito - good fighter, outside chance against Mayweather BUT less of a chance than Delahoya had. Hes hardly got an undestructable resume against similar fighters to Mayweather - Williams, Clottey, Santos - loses to Williams and Santos and got a bit lucky against Clottey

There will never be a Mayweather-Margarito fight now. Theres nothing to gain by fighting Margarito and if he wins - so what? Everyone will say hes Williams/Santos leftovers

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 16 Jul 2007, 16:53

Dorin was a fat lightweight. Who had Dorin beat btw? His claim to fame was drawing with Paul Spadafora.

My point is this. Everyone is telling us how great Mayweather is, how he will go down in the hall of fame, he's took on all comers....ect. Its total bullshit! We have to listen to how great this guy is when he has hardly ever even fought anyone. When I bring up Margarito, a guy who actually poses a great threat to him stylewise he just gets dismissed. The last guy with a high workrate and decent power that Floyd fought gave him hell and imo beat him. It seems to go over peoples heads that a giant welterweight with a big punch, granite chin and non stop workrate will beat him.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 16 Jul 2007, 17:00

Lefthookhappy19 wrote:Gatti really hasn't beat a world class opponent. I'd hardly call Ruelas and Patterson world class. Nothing but decent fighters. It's funny that you refuse to see the facts that are staring you right in the face. Journeymen that got dealt with by real world class fighters used to give Gatti HELL.

And Oscar isn't much cop these days and its easy to see. Its on paper as well actually.

And Margarito was the man until the weekend. I don't want to even think of the mess that Antonio would have left your boy Gatti in had they ever fought. The names in this division stayed the eff away from Antonio and thats why he doesn't have that big name win on his record.

The difference is Antonio doesn't have the pick of who he fights unlike the Mayweathers, Gatti's and Judah's of the world.

So you just stay in your own little world were Gatti is world class, Mayweather has fought good opponents and Oscar is still a great fighter.

Gatti is proven not to be world class at 147, so of course Margarito would have beaten him. However, he was a 140.

Yes, Tracey Harris Patterson and Gabe Reulas was world class.... Jesus they were champions... Tracey Harris Patterson beat Daniel Zaragoza FFS - Your not just decent if you beat Zaragoza. The man was a two weight world champion for 5 years... How on gods earth is that not world class. His reign/s were far more accomplished than your boy Antonio. I'm not disputing that Margarito wasn't world class, but he was never the man.. he was never the lineal champ.

PN - Completely agree with your post, YES Cotto has been well not protected, but not fought the greatest of guys as a CHAMPION. Had Mayweather beaten him as opposed to Gatti - the critics (e.g. Lefthook) would have said "well, he's beaten a non world class, unproven paper champion".... Cause while he is an excellent fighter his reign as WBO Light Welter champion isn't exactly a whoose who...... Pinto = Overated never in the top ten, Randall Bailey = not in any independent Top ten, Corley = Top ten but shot, Abdulaev = Not top ten, Ricardo Torres = Top ten now, but unheard of at the time and not top ten, Branco = Never in the top ten, Malignaggi = As Torres - although a little more well known,

Things have improved as a Welter... But its Gatti's Light Welterweight resume that is being torn to Shreds. Gatti did a far better job vs Branco with one hand than Cotto did.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 16 Jul 2007, 17:23

Margarito has lost to Williams, Santos, and would lose to a Clottey in a rematch. I think it's time to look towards the more serious matches.

Mayweather v Cotto is the one I want to see.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 16 Jul 2007, 18:04

Lefthookhappy19 wrote:Dorin was a fat lightweight. Who had Dorin beat btw? His claim to fame was drawing with Paul Spadafora.

My point is this. Everyone is telling us how great Mayweather is, how he will go down in the hall of fame, he's took on all comers....ect. Its total bullshit! We have to listen to how great this guy is when he has hardly ever even fought anyone. When I bring up Margarito, a guy who actually poses a great threat to him stylewise he just gets dismissed. The last guy with a high workrate and decent power that Floyd fought gave him hell and imo beat him. It seems to go over peoples heads that a giant welterweight with a big punch, granite chin and non stop workrate will beat him.

Hold on there, Margarito's workrate - for whatever reason was pretty dire vs Williams.... He was completely outworked.

Now in Williams we have all of these aspects, plus alot more variation, speed and greater workrate.

Margarito gets dismissed cause with the exception of Cintron - everytime he has stepped up he has either lost (Williams and Santos) or had a massive struggle against (Diaz and Clottey)... and the two of these he beat were either not true elite, or note proven what category he belongs in.

If Margarito has more wins in the Quintana, Collazo bracket... he would be considered more. He hasn't... when he has fought at that level he has struggled. Nobody would want to see either of those in with Mayweather.

Now, you could dismiss Gatti's chin, and skill level if you want... and I couldn't really argue - I would disagree, but could see why I could be overating it. However, you cannot dispute the workrate of Gatti, you cannot dispute the power of Gatti.... similarly Jesus Chavez.... Dispute his skill level, but you cannot dispute his power and workrate - what will Mayorga now pose Mayweather problems. He has the attributes needed, in your opinion, to beat Floyd.

The ONLY reason Mayweather "lost" the fight (in your opinion) to Castillo was because he had one hand. The fact that you scored the fight to Castillo shows your biasness... although I am sure you will reverse that - but the vast majority thought Mayweather won.

There is only one poster, whose opinion I respect, from another forum who scored that fight to Castillo. This guys knows his boxing - but if I tell you he ranked Floyd Mayweather at P4P #13 AFTER the Gatti fight... it just shows his biasness.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 16 Jul 2007, 18:05

Kilburn wrote:Margarito has lost to Williams, Santos, and would lose to a Clottey in a rematch. I think it's time to look towards the more serious matches.

Mayweather v Cotto is the one I want to see.

Exactly, he's a mid tier champion - always has been. Spinks, Forrest would have outboxed him also.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 17 Jul 2007, 05:03

Lefthookhappy19 wrote:Dorin was a fat lightweight. Who had Dorin beat btw? His claim to fame was drawing with Paul Spadafora.

My point is this. Everyone is telling us how great Mayweather is, how he will go down in the hall of fame, he's took on all comers....ect. Its total bullshit! We have to listen to how great this guy is when he has hardly ever even fought anyone. When I bring up Margarito, a guy who actually poses a great threat to him stylewise he just gets dismissed. The last guy with a high workrate and decent power that Floyd fought gave him hell and imo beat him. It seems to go over peoples heads that a giant welterweight with a big punch, granite chin and non stop workrate will beat him.

Dorin didn't draw with Spadafora, he beat Spad silly and was robbed.

What your forgetting about Mayweather is he is a natural 130lber, he shouldn't have moved beyond 140. The only reason he moved beyond 140 is because Judah was the biggest fight out there after he couldn't make a fight with Hatton or Cotto.

The facts are Hatton, Cotto, Mosley have all turned down fights with Mayweather on multiple occasions.

Margarito has a chance against Mayweather but so did Judah, so did Gatti, I edge towards Mayweather to school Margarito. But it will enver happen just like Hatton-Witter will never happen

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 17 Jul 2007, 05:42

It's necessary to balance quality and quantity. I felt Margo was landing the punches that counted and felt 7-5 to him or 6-6 in rds would have been fair with his aggressiveness. Williams threw loads of shots but many were rubbish arm punches and a lot were blocked. Tony sunk in good rights to the body and stung PW with some excellent straight rights late on.

Williams isn't great. He's just big, southpaw and fit.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 17 Jul 2007, 12:13

Autobarn wrote:It's necessary to balance quality and quantity. I felt Margo was landing the punches that counted and felt 7-5 to him or 6-6 in rds would have been fair with his aggressiveness. Williams threw loads of shots but many were rubbish arm punches and a lot were blocked. Tony sunk in good rights to the body and stung PW with some excellent straight rights late on.

Williams isn't great. He's just big, southpaw and fit.

Williams isn't great - BUT who beats him at 147-154?

Mayweather - Williams is al wrong for him

Cotto - maybe but I think Williams can outbox/outspeed him, use his reach and get a comprehensive UD

Margarito - no, Williams won clearly (I've got a feeling you don't like his style) and Williams will get better

Mosley - maybe but Mosley has problems with fast rangy fighters like Forrest/Winky and hes getting older

Cintron - Cintron has a punchers chance and thats it

Hatton - Williams would completely dominate Hatton.

Spinks/Forrest/Delahoya - Williams youth edges them out

Dzinderuk - I think Williams has the toold to edge this 1

Williams has earned a world of respect for his performance from me, I think he could become great if he gets the right fights. Yes I've become a bit of a fan

Twinkle Toes · Post by **Twinkle Toes** » 17 Jul 2007, 18:13

I think you're getting a bit carried away there mate - Agreed Williams has an effective: Gangly, flurry and grab type of style.

However, to suggest that this is enough to see him through the elite fighters from 147-154 is over the top.