Just checked with God Almighty on this one.....Quarry humiliates Morrison.
Which is why he did not allow them to fight in the same era.
jerry quarry vs tommy morrison
-
Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
We have gone over the Garcia fight before. Norton was early his career himself. This was 2 years before he was even ranked. He obviously improved a great deal.
In his prime (1972-1978) he only knocked out once and that was by George Foreman.
No other fighter even knocked him down in his prime.
Judge fighters by what they did in their prime, not what what happened when they are very early in their career or way past it. This how people that know boxing do it. Other fighters got knocked out early in their career well before they were at their best and no one thinks anything of it.
Morrison was in his prime when he got knocked out by Bentt in one round. He was in his prime when he was decked twice by Purrity and couldn't get a draw. He was in prime when he got decked by a washed up Carl Williams, who wasn't known for his power even in his prime.
Morrison was in his prime when he had his head handed to him by Mercer, who wasn't exactly a brutal puncher.
Ali was a light puncher? The stupidity just goes on and on. He stopped Liston,Frazier,Foreman,Ellis,Quarry, Lyle, etc. A light puncher wouldn't have been able to do that.
I'm sorry,who did Morrison ever stop again?
Yet in 3 fights with Norton, Ali couldn't stop Norton. Yet more evidence that Norton could take a punch.
If he had a glass jaw he wouldn't have been able to go 15 rounds with a prime Larry Holmes in a great fight.
Bobick was undefeated and had knocked out almost everyone he fought before he fought Norton. According to your stupid theories, Norton should have frozen in this fight. However, Norton went out and knocked out Bobick in the first round. Morrison's list of knockout victims is no more impressive as Bobick's.
There would be no reason for Norton to "freeze" against Morrison.
Styles are important. There is no one that Morrison stopped that was close to a prime Norton. Norton stopped fighters that had better chins and better defenses than Morrison. The odds of Norton stopping Morrison are much greater.
In his prime (1972-1978) he only knocked out once and that was by George Foreman.
No other fighter even knocked him down in his prime.
Judge fighters by what they did in their prime, not what what happened when they are very early in their career or way past it. This how people that know boxing do it. Other fighters got knocked out early in their career well before they were at their best and no one thinks anything of it.
Morrison was in his prime when he got knocked out by Bentt in one round. He was in his prime when he was decked twice by Purrity and couldn't get a draw. He was in prime when he got decked by a washed up Carl Williams, who wasn't known for his power even in his prime.
Morrison was in his prime when he had his head handed to him by Mercer, who wasn't exactly a brutal puncher.
Ali was a light puncher? The stupidity just goes on and on. He stopped Liston,Frazier,Foreman,Ellis,Quarry, Lyle, etc. A light puncher wouldn't have been able to do that.
I'm sorry,who did Morrison ever stop again?
Yet in 3 fights with Norton, Ali couldn't stop Norton. Yet more evidence that Norton could take a punch.
If he had a glass jaw he wouldn't have been able to go 15 rounds with a prime Larry Holmes in a great fight.
Bobick was undefeated and had knocked out almost everyone he fought before he fought Norton. According to your stupid theories, Norton should have frozen in this fight. However, Norton went out and knocked out Bobick in the first round. Morrison's list of knockout victims is no more impressive as Bobick's.
There would be no reason for Norton to "freeze" against Morrison.
Styles are important. There is no one that Morrison stopped that was close to a prime Norton. Norton stopped fighters that had better chins and better defenses than Morrison. The odds of Norton stopping Morrison are much greater.
You can't improve a chin. If you are knocked out by non-puncher who moved up from 160 less than 2 years prior, and from 175lb less than a year, and your chin gave up so easily, and when we have the evidence of three other fights with big punchers, where the chin betrayed him even easier, that tells us all we need to know.
-
Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
No, that doesn't tell us all that we need to know. If you are inexperienced, you may not be able take a hard shot that you can absorb when you are more experienced. You know what to expect. You are also more likely to see shots coming when you are experienced.
Also, an experienced smart fighter can often survive when hurt in situations that he wouldn't have when he was inexperienced.
With Norton you have a perfect example. Yes, when he was inexperienced he got knocked out by someone that wasn't anything special. However, he obviously improved as he gained experience. In his prime (1972-1978) Foreman was the only one that ever knocked him out; no one else even knocked him down.
Obviously Ali,Holmes,Quarry,Bobick and others that Norton fought during his prime hit harder than Garcia. Yet they couldn't stop him.
Benny Leonard was knocked out 3 times by nobodies early in his career when he was inexperienced. He wasn't knocked out again until the last fight of career when he was 36. He fought may quality fighters who couldn't knock him out.
Jack Johnson was knocked out 7 times during his career. However none were during his prime. They were all either when he was inexperienced or when he was past it.
People don't think Leonard or Johnson had a glass jaw because the knockouts were either early in their careers when they were in- experienced or were when they past it.
There many other examples of this.
The stage of a fighters career has to be considered when you are talking about a fighter's chin or anything else about him for that matter.
Getting knocked out by a prime George Foreman or Earnie Shavers are 35 doesn't mean you have glass jaw.
That the Cooney fight keeps getting brought up is ridiculaus. Norton was obviously shot by then.
Morrison wasn't in the same class of punchers as Foreman, Shavers or Cooney anyway. Who did he ever stop that was any good that wasn't washed up?
This isn't rocket science. Getting knocked out by a novice when you are in your prime (which is what happened to Morrison) is an awful lot worse than getting knocked out by hard punchers like Cooney and Shavers when are past it.
Not to mention Morrison getting decked by a washed up Carl Williams and twice by Ross Purrity. Or crushed by Mercer.
Norton had better boxing skills, was a smarter fighter, was much harder to hit, had much better stamina, and yes a better chin.
Also, an experienced smart fighter can often survive when hurt in situations that he wouldn't have when he was inexperienced.
With Norton you have a perfect example. Yes, when he was inexperienced he got knocked out by someone that wasn't anything special. However, he obviously improved as he gained experience. In his prime (1972-1978) Foreman was the only one that ever knocked him out; no one else even knocked him down.
Obviously Ali,Holmes,Quarry,Bobick and others that Norton fought during his prime hit harder than Garcia. Yet they couldn't stop him.
Benny Leonard was knocked out 3 times by nobodies early in his career when he was inexperienced. He wasn't knocked out again until the last fight of career when he was 36. He fought may quality fighters who couldn't knock him out.
Jack Johnson was knocked out 7 times during his career. However none were during his prime. They were all either when he was inexperienced or when he was past it.
People don't think Leonard or Johnson had a glass jaw because the knockouts were either early in their careers when they were in- experienced or were when they past it.
There many other examples of this.
The stage of a fighters career has to be considered when you are talking about a fighter's chin or anything else about him for that matter.
Getting knocked out by a prime George Foreman or Earnie Shavers are 35 doesn't mean you have glass jaw.
That the Cooney fight keeps getting brought up is ridiculaus. Norton was obviously shot by then.
Morrison wasn't in the same class of punchers as Foreman, Shavers or Cooney anyway. Who did he ever stop that was any good that wasn't washed up?
This isn't rocket science. Getting knocked out by a novice when you are in your prime (which is what happened to Morrison) is an awful lot worse than getting knocked out by hard punchers like Cooney and Shavers when are past it.
Not to mention Morrison getting decked by a washed up Carl Williams and twice by Ross Purrity. Or crushed by Mercer.
Norton had better boxing skills, was a smarter fighter, was much harder to hit, had much better stamina, and yes a better chin.
-
kick asner
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 692
- Joined: 02 Oct 2005, 00:01
Here is another one Alp, Ali's brrutal knockout of Oscar Bonevena. That was a picture perfect left hook that had plenty on it. Oscar got back up from it, but was pretty much done after that. I have argued the same thing, but some people already have their mind made up.Ambling Alp wrote:We have gone over the Garcia fight before. Norton was early his career himself. This was 2 years before he was even ranked. He obviously improved a great deal.
In his prime (1972-1978) he only knocked out once and that was by George Foreman.
No other fighter even knocked him down in his prime.
Judge fighters by what they did in their prime, not what what happened when they are very early in their career or way past it. This how people that know boxing do it. Other fighters got knocked out early in their career well before they were at their best and no one thinks anything of it.
Morrison was in his prime when he got knocked out by Bentt in one round. He was in his prime when he was decked twice by Purrity and couldn't get a draw. He was in prime when he got decked by a washed up Carl Williams, who wasn't known for his power even in his prime.
Morrison was in his prime when he had his head handed to him by Mercer, who wasn't exactly a brutal puncher.
Ali was a light puncher? The stupidity just goes on and on. He stopped Liston,Frazier,Foreman,Ellis,Quarry, Lyle, etc. A light puncher wouldn't have been able to do that.
I'm sorry,who did Morrison ever stop again?
Yet in 3 fights with Norton, Ali couldn't stop Norton. Yet more evidence that Norton could take a punch.
If he had a glass jaw he wouldn't have been able to go 15 rounds with a prime Larry Holmes in a great fight.
Bobick was undefeated and had knocked out almost everyone he fought before he fought Norton. According to your stupid theories, Norton should have frozen in this fight. However, Norton went out and knocked out Bobick in the first round. Morrison's list of knockout victims is no more impressive as Bobick's.
There would be no reason for Norton to "freeze" against Morrison.
Styles are important. There is no one that Morrison stopped that was close to a prime Norton. Norton stopped fighters that had better chins and better defenses than Morrison. The odds of Norton stopping Morrison are much greater.
-
Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
Did anyone say that Ali was a big puncher? We are just saying he wasn't a light puncher.
He was a boxer first who usually didn't go put everything that he had on his punches. However he wasn't some pillow puncher. He could punch.
The Bonavena fight that kick ansner mentioned is a good example. That was a great left hook that Ali knocked Bonavena down with. Bonavena had a very good chin. This was the only time in his 68 fight career that he was ever stopped.
He beat up Liston in their first fight until Liston quit. Only one other fighter ever stopped Liston and that was when he was way over the hill.
Foreman had a pretty good chin. Ali was the only one to stop him in 81 fights.
No, Jerry Quarry wasn't a midget. He was 6 feet tall. He also had a very good chin.
No, Jimmy Ellis wasn't a middleweight when he fought Ali. He hadn't been for 8 years.
It's revealing who Ali didn't knockdown? Like who? Who did Ali fight that had a vulnerable chin that he didn't stop?
Compared to Chris Byrd he was a huge puncher. Compared to Foreman and Shavers he was a light puncher. Compared to most heavyweight contenders/champions he had at least average power.
To go 3 fights (39 rounds) with Ali, Norton had to have had at least a decent chin. Morrison certainly wouldn't have been able to do that.
Norton had to have agood chin to go 15 rounds in that fight against Holmes. Again, there is no way that Morrison would last 15 rounds against a prime Larry Holmes.
It's interesting the the person that apparently believes in the fountain of youth (ie Foreman was better in his 40's than he was in his 20's, age isn't important etc. ) would mention that Frazier was "greatly diminished" when he fought Ali the third time. He fought one of the best fights of his career in the 3rd fight against Ali.
Frazier was 31 when he fought Ali the third time and only had 34 fights. Ali himself was 33 and had 50 fights.
Interesting that when you constantly talk about Cooney-Norton, you don't talk about Norton being "greatly diminished". He was 37 and was in his 50th fight. He had looked horrible in his last two fights and clearly wasn't nearly the fighter than he had been.
Frazier was certainly closer to his best when he fought Ali the third time than Norton was to his best when he fought Cooney.
Once again, who did Morrison ever stop that was any good? You missed this question the first dozen or so times that I asked.
He was a boxer first who usually didn't go put everything that he had on his punches. However he wasn't some pillow puncher. He could punch.
The Bonavena fight that kick ansner mentioned is a good example. That was a great left hook that Ali knocked Bonavena down with. Bonavena had a very good chin. This was the only time in his 68 fight career that he was ever stopped.
He beat up Liston in their first fight until Liston quit. Only one other fighter ever stopped Liston and that was when he was way over the hill.
Foreman had a pretty good chin. Ali was the only one to stop him in 81 fights.
No, Jerry Quarry wasn't a midget. He was 6 feet tall. He also had a very good chin.
No, Jimmy Ellis wasn't a middleweight when he fought Ali. He hadn't been for 8 years.
It's revealing who Ali didn't knockdown? Like who? Who did Ali fight that had a vulnerable chin that he didn't stop?
Compared to Chris Byrd he was a huge puncher. Compared to Foreman and Shavers he was a light puncher. Compared to most heavyweight contenders/champions he had at least average power.
To go 3 fights (39 rounds) with Ali, Norton had to have had at least a decent chin. Morrison certainly wouldn't have been able to do that.
Norton had to have agood chin to go 15 rounds in that fight against Holmes. Again, there is no way that Morrison would last 15 rounds against a prime Larry Holmes.
It's interesting the the person that apparently believes in the fountain of youth (ie Foreman was better in his 40's than he was in his 20's, age isn't important etc. ) would mention that Frazier was "greatly diminished" when he fought Ali the third time. He fought one of the best fights of his career in the 3rd fight against Ali.
Frazier was 31 when he fought Ali the third time and only had 34 fights. Ali himself was 33 and had 50 fights.
Interesting that when you constantly talk about Cooney-Norton, you don't talk about Norton being "greatly diminished". He was 37 and was in his 50th fight. He had looked horrible in his last two fights and clearly wasn't nearly the fighter than he had been.
Frazier was certainly closer to his best when he fought Ali the third time than Norton was to his best when he fought Cooney.
Once again, who did Morrison ever stop that was any good? You missed this question the first dozen or so times that I asked.
-
The Great John L
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4351
- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37
Interestingly, George was bigger than everybody he fought in his second career, while he did fight and beat a number of fighters during his first career who were actually bigger and stronger than himself.
Last edited by The Great John L on 16 Jul 2007, 10:21, edited 1 time in total.
-
dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
Thomas and Tillis were literally Dead Men Walking when Morrison fought them. Extremely washed up.DaveV17 wrote:AA wrote:
"It's interesting the the person that apparently believes in the fountain of youth (ie Foreman was better in his 40's than he was in his 20's, age isn't important etc. ) would mention that Frazier was "greatly diminished" when he fought Ali the third time. He fought one of the best fights of his career in the 3rd fight against Ali."
The answer again, Styles and individuals. Every style is different and every person is different. Foreman, (for the hundredth time) relied on strength to fight. When he was young, he was not a swarmer who fought from a crouch, he stood straight, he winged his punches, and if he had not been bigger and stronger than his opponents, he would not have been a champion. When he returned, he was bigger and stronger than before. He was slow, but he was slow in his youth. When he returned he also was relaxed, could fight more than 3-5 rounds, and had a decent defense. Foreman just improved his strengths and worked on a few weaknesses. A lot of fighters are still decent fighters in their 40s, but Foreman, because of his style is the only one who was better in his 40s than he had been when younger.
Frazier was a swarming type, pressure fighter. After the first Ali fight, he gained about 10 pounds, and the weight was visible around his waist. Joe tried just as hard when he fought, but his conditioning did not allow him to fight the same way. If you think Frazier fought one of the best fights of his career in the 3rd Ali fight, that is your perogative, I don't agree. After March, 1971, Frazier never looked like the same fighter. Frazier peaked from 1968-71.
AA wrote:
"Once again, who did Morrison ever stop that was any good? You missed this question the first dozen or so times that I asked."
I have told you that Morrison was not a great fighter, just a fighter who had the right style and the right strengths to exploit Ken Norton's weakness. Ruddock, Thomas, Tillis, Foreman, etc. were all good, dangerous fighters. Ruddock is another one who probably would have sent Norton home early.
AA wrote:
"The Bonavena fight that kick ansner mentioned is a good example. That was a great left hook that Ali knocked Bonavena down with. Bonavena had a very good chin. This was the only time in his 68 fight career that he was ever stopped."
Do you think that the ref allowing Ali to stand over Bonavena without having to go to a neutral corner might have had something to do with that? Jimmy Ellis knocked Bonavena down too and if Ellis had been allowed to stand over Oscar and hit him as he got up, he too would have probably stopped Bonavena. Are you going to give me some examples of big knockdowns by Ali? I'm drawing a blank, maybe you are too?
Ruddock was also 20 lbs overweight and past it when Morrison saved himself with a Hail Mary left hook.
-
Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
You knew that he had to resort to Tillis,Thomas,and Ruddock. all good dangerous fighters.
Tillis had lost 4 of his last 5 fights.
Thomas had lost 4 of his last 5.
Ruddock was coming off a long layoff and had one win in the last 3 years.
All 3 were way past it. None were dangerous or good any longer.
He doesn't seem to realize that it matters what stage of a fighters career the fight is fought makes a huge difference.
Interesting that the extra 10 pounds on Frazier was "visible around his waist". How about the 35 pounds around Foreman's waist when he fought in his 40's?
Foreman fought an extremely slow pace when he older, because he had to. There is no way that he could have physically throw nearly as many punches in a round that he did in his 20's. So he paced himself, because he had to. He couldn't follow up when he did get an opponent hurt when he was in his 40's; he wasn't near the finisher that he once was. He was much slower than he had been in his 20's.
Foreman was an underrated boxer. You don't win an Olympic Gold Medal under those rules just by being strong.
It's obvious by watching film that foreman was a much harder puncher in his 20's. Watch the first Frazier fight. Frazier actually gets lifted up in the air by a punch. Foreman destroyed Frazier in two rounds. He never would have been able to do that in his 40's.
You can keep using your "styles makes fights line but it's obvious that he doesn't really understand it. You can't just accuratley conclude that since fighter A (Morrison)hits hard, fighter B (Norton) doesn't take a hard punch, therefore fighter A would easily crush fighter B.
It's a lot more complicated than that.
1. What happens if fighter B nails fighter A?
2.What if fighter A has trouble hitting fighter B?
Not to mention the fact that he is severely overrating Morrison's power and underrating Norton's ability to take a punch.
Now Ali was standing over Bonavena? The referee could have kept Ali a little farther back but he was clearly between them each time. He wasn't hovering over Bonavena. Bonavena was hurt badly after the first knockdown and ready to go. I haven't heard even the most anti-Ali fans complain about this one.
What are Ali's "big" knockdowns? Well, I will mention several of his knockdowns. I am sure then you will come up with some reason why they aren't "big", but nevertheless I will anyway.
He knocked down several fighters on his way up, after that he knocked down: Patterson,London,Mildenberger,Williams,Folley,Blin,Mathis,Coopman,LewisBonavena, Foster,Wepner,Dunn,and of course Foreman. Several were knocked several times. Others quite possibly would have been knocked down were hurt but the fight was stopped before they were knocked down. Several were top contenders at the time and were much better than anyone that Morrison ever stopped.
Tillis had lost 4 of his last 5 fights.
Thomas had lost 4 of his last 5.
Ruddock was coming off a long layoff and had one win in the last 3 years.
All 3 were way past it. None were dangerous or good any longer.
He doesn't seem to realize that it matters what stage of a fighters career the fight is fought makes a huge difference.
Interesting that the extra 10 pounds on Frazier was "visible around his waist". How about the 35 pounds around Foreman's waist when he fought in his 40's?
Foreman fought an extremely slow pace when he older, because he had to. There is no way that he could have physically throw nearly as many punches in a round that he did in his 20's. So he paced himself, because he had to. He couldn't follow up when he did get an opponent hurt when he was in his 40's; he wasn't near the finisher that he once was. He was much slower than he had been in his 20's.
Foreman was an underrated boxer. You don't win an Olympic Gold Medal under those rules just by being strong.
It's obvious by watching film that foreman was a much harder puncher in his 20's. Watch the first Frazier fight. Frazier actually gets lifted up in the air by a punch. Foreman destroyed Frazier in two rounds. He never would have been able to do that in his 40's.
You can keep using your "styles makes fights line but it's obvious that he doesn't really understand it. You can't just accuratley conclude that since fighter A (Morrison)hits hard, fighter B (Norton) doesn't take a hard punch, therefore fighter A would easily crush fighter B.
It's a lot more complicated than that.
1. What happens if fighter B nails fighter A?
2.What if fighter A has trouble hitting fighter B?
Not to mention the fact that he is severely overrating Morrison's power and underrating Norton's ability to take a punch.
Now Ali was standing over Bonavena? The referee could have kept Ali a little farther back but he was clearly between them each time. He wasn't hovering over Bonavena. Bonavena was hurt badly after the first knockdown and ready to go. I haven't heard even the most anti-Ali fans complain about this one.
What are Ali's "big" knockdowns? Well, I will mention several of his knockdowns. I am sure then you will come up with some reason why they aren't "big", but nevertheless I will anyway.
He knocked down several fighters on his way up, after that he knocked down: Patterson,London,Mildenberger,Williams,Folley,Blin,Mathis,Coopman,LewisBonavena, Foster,Wepner,Dunn,and of course Foreman. Several were knocked several times. Others quite possibly would have been knocked down were hurt but the fight was stopped before they were knocked down. Several were top contenders at the time and were much better than anyone that Morrison ever stopped.
-
dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
-
Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
Dave V17, you are so easy. Read my post. Did I say that all were contenders? No I didn't.
If my comments were so easy to refute then you would try refute them all, which you don't do.
Yes Ali did knock Patterson down. He also stopped Patterson; only two others did that. No, in the majority of Patterson's fights he wasn't knocked down.
He also stopped Liston, only one other guy did that.
He stopped Frazier, only other guy did that. (Foreman)
Was only the second guy to knock Wepner down.
He stopped Bonavena, no else did that.
He stopped Lyle. Only one other fighter in Lyle's prime did that. (Foreman)
He stopped Foreman; no one else did that.
But these were all coincidences and Ali was a light puncher. Whatever.
I didn't say knocking down Buster Mathis was a big deal, I just mentioned him as one of the many fighters that Ali knocked down. I didn't know if that would qualify for your all important "big knockdown".
Of course this wasn't one of Ali's biggest wins. Of course Morrison beating a washed up Razor Ruddock is his biggest ko. How impressive.
No Ali didn't knock Spinks down. Of course Ali wasn't in his prime then. Oh that's right, guys only have "diminshed skills" when you think it will help your own arguement.
If Ring Magazine Articles mean so much too you, then you would be interested to know that Ring had an article in which they ranked the top 50 heavyweights of all time. Norton was ranked as the #22 heavyweight of all time. Oddly enough, Morrison didn't make the Top 50.
Morrison never beat the best version of George Foreman. the scorecards speak for themselves? The birth certificates speak for themselves as well.
In his prime, Norton was knocked down three times by one fighter-George Foreman.
In his prime Morrison was knocked down 12 times by 6 different fighters.
If my comments were so easy to refute then you would try refute them all, which you don't do.
Yes Ali did knock Patterson down. He also stopped Patterson; only two others did that. No, in the majority of Patterson's fights he wasn't knocked down.
He also stopped Liston, only one other guy did that.
He stopped Frazier, only other guy did that. (Foreman)
Was only the second guy to knock Wepner down.
He stopped Bonavena, no else did that.
He stopped Lyle. Only one other fighter in Lyle's prime did that. (Foreman)
He stopped Foreman; no one else did that.
But these were all coincidences and Ali was a light puncher. Whatever.
I didn't say knocking down Buster Mathis was a big deal, I just mentioned him as one of the many fighters that Ali knocked down. I didn't know if that would qualify for your all important "big knockdown".
Of course this wasn't one of Ali's biggest wins. Of course Morrison beating a washed up Razor Ruddock is his biggest ko. How impressive.
No Ali didn't knock Spinks down. Of course Ali wasn't in his prime then. Oh that's right, guys only have "diminshed skills" when you think it will help your own arguement.
If Ring Magazine Articles mean so much too you, then you would be interested to know that Ring had an article in which they ranked the top 50 heavyweights of all time. Norton was ranked as the #22 heavyweight of all time. Oddly enough, Morrison didn't make the Top 50.
Morrison never beat the best version of George Foreman. the scorecards speak for themselves? The birth certificates speak for themselves as well.
In his prime, Norton was knocked down three times by one fighter-George Foreman.
In his prime Morrison was knocked down 12 times by 6 different fighters.
What year? My guess is when Ali hype was at its highest, so they praised every single journeyman and tomato can he fought as nearly great.Ambling Alp wrote:If Ring Magazine Articles mean so much too you, then you would be interested to know that Ring had an article in which they ranked the top 50 heavyweights of all time. Norton was ranked as the #22 heavyweight of all time. Oddly enough, Morrison didn't make the Top 50.
-
Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
Seyna-Norton was rated as their #22 heavyweight of all time in Ring's 1998 Holiday Issue.
dave17- You haven't answered dozens of my points/questions on this thread.
I never said knocking down Patterson was a big deal. I simply listed him as a fighter that Ali had knocked down. You then asked if Ali really had knocked him down and I said yes. I actaully have seen the first Ali-Patterson fight. Apparently you haven't.
For what it's worth Patterson was knocked down 20 times in his career. 7 were in the first Johannson fight. The other 13 were in his other 63 fights.
He was knocked down, but was hard to stop. Besides Ali, only Johannson and Liston did it. Neither Liston or Johannson are called light punchers.
Sorry that you won't discuss the Liston fights. However, its obvious that Liston was getting beat up in the first fight and quit. Hard to believe that a "light puncher" could do that.
As for Frazier being diminshed, well he certainly wasn't diminshed as Norton was when he fought Cooney or Foreman in his comeback.
Frazier certainly fought a great fight against Ali, though you probably don't think it was a good as classics like Morrison-Hipp.
No, Ali didn't stand over Bonavena while he was down. It's on Youtube for anyone to see. How about the punch that knocked Bonavena down the first time? Didn't seem that it came from a "light puncher".
Wepner was easy to hit, but could take a punch. He did cut easy and was stopped several times because of that. He was very hard to knockdown. Yet the "light punching Ali did it".
My main point is that is ridiculaus to think that a light puncher could stop all of the guys that ali did. Therefore, Norton had to have had at least a decent chin to go the distance 3 times with Ali. (Not to mention that Norton went the distance with Holmes, who stopped his next 8 challengers. Of course you keep ignoring this because it doesn't fit in with your Norton can't take a punch theory.)
Now you are criticizing Ali's title defenses? Can you name all of the top contenders that Ali didn't fight during his era?
btw-It's interesting that Tommy boy never fought Holyfield,Tyson,Bowe, or even Tua, Moorer or Golota. After getting his head handed to him by Lewis and Mercer was enough for most people to know he wasn't for real. He had enough trouble with the tomato cans that
A lot of us have fun discussing fantasy fights and various topics. Of course there is going to be differences of opinion. I might agree with someone's opinion on one thread and disagree with him on another.
However, I have never seen anyone else who is so clueless about somehting so important as a fighters prime. Sometimes it's a gray area whether a fighter is still in their prime. However, everyone seems to realize that fighters do have primes and that everyone will decline. You seem oblivious to this. To think that Foreman was better in his 40's than his 20's is absurd. It's obvious to just about everyone when watching his fights. To think that knocking out Norton in his last fight when he was 37 means something is also absurd. The Norton who fought Cobb and Ledoux (right before Cooney) wasn't anywhere near the fight that he once was. However you seem to make an exception for Frazier so that it doesn't seem like a big win for Ali, the man you hate.
That you consider Tillis,Thomas as dangerous fighters at the time Morrison fought them speaks volumes abouit your understanding of a fighters prime and your boxing knowledge in general.
You also clearly don't understand the whole "styles make fights" concept that you like to use. I mentioned over and over some things that you aren't taking into account and you just ignore it.
What bothers me the most is that constantly ignore points that I and other make that contradict points that you try to make. I have tried to answer all of your points, as silly as many of them were. However, you usually have not done the same. you keep saying some of the same things over and over as if no one countered your points.
It's a waste of time if you are going to ignore what I and others have to say. If you want to go on and and on saying silly things over and over, go ahead. I won't answer anyomore of your comments until you answered the dozens of questions/point that I have made earlier in this thread. For now, I am done with you.
dave17- You haven't answered dozens of my points/questions on this thread.
I never said knocking down Patterson was a big deal. I simply listed him as a fighter that Ali had knocked down. You then asked if Ali really had knocked him down and I said yes. I actaully have seen the first Ali-Patterson fight. Apparently you haven't.
For what it's worth Patterson was knocked down 20 times in his career. 7 were in the first Johannson fight. The other 13 were in his other 63 fights.
He was knocked down, but was hard to stop. Besides Ali, only Johannson and Liston did it. Neither Liston or Johannson are called light punchers.
Sorry that you won't discuss the Liston fights. However, its obvious that Liston was getting beat up in the first fight and quit. Hard to believe that a "light puncher" could do that.
As for Frazier being diminshed, well he certainly wasn't diminshed as Norton was when he fought Cooney or Foreman in his comeback.
Frazier certainly fought a great fight against Ali, though you probably don't think it was a good as classics like Morrison-Hipp.
No, Ali didn't stand over Bonavena while he was down. It's on Youtube for anyone to see. How about the punch that knocked Bonavena down the first time? Didn't seem that it came from a "light puncher".
Wepner was easy to hit, but could take a punch. He did cut easy and was stopped several times because of that. He was very hard to knockdown. Yet the "light punching Ali did it".
My main point is that is ridiculaus to think that a light puncher could stop all of the guys that ali did. Therefore, Norton had to have had at least a decent chin to go the distance 3 times with Ali. (Not to mention that Norton went the distance with Holmes, who stopped his next 8 challengers. Of course you keep ignoring this because it doesn't fit in with your Norton can't take a punch theory.)
Now you are criticizing Ali's title defenses? Can you name all of the top contenders that Ali didn't fight during his era?
btw-It's interesting that Tommy boy never fought Holyfield,Tyson,Bowe, or even Tua, Moorer or Golota. After getting his head handed to him by Lewis and Mercer was enough for most people to know he wasn't for real. He had enough trouble with the tomato cans that
A lot of us have fun discussing fantasy fights and various topics. Of course there is going to be differences of opinion. I might agree with someone's opinion on one thread and disagree with him on another.
However, I have never seen anyone else who is so clueless about somehting so important as a fighters prime. Sometimes it's a gray area whether a fighter is still in their prime. However, everyone seems to realize that fighters do have primes and that everyone will decline. You seem oblivious to this. To think that Foreman was better in his 40's than his 20's is absurd. It's obvious to just about everyone when watching his fights. To think that knocking out Norton in his last fight when he was 37 means something is also absurd. The Norton who fought Cobb and Ledoux (right before Cooney) wasn't anywhere near the fight that he once was. However you seem to make an exception for Frazier so that it doesn't seem like a big win for Ali, the man you hate.
That you consider Tillis,Thomas as dangerous fighters at the time Morrison fought them speaks volumes abouit your understanding of a fighters prime and your boxing knowledge in general.
You also clearly don't understand the whole "styles make fights" concept that you like to use. I mentioned over and over some things that you aren't taking into account and you just ignore it.
What bothers me the most is that constantly ignore points that I and other make that contradict points that you try to make. I have tried to answer all of your points, as silly as many of them were. However, you usually have not done the same. you keep saying some of the same things over and over as if no one countered your points.
It's a waste of time if you are going to ignore what I and others have to say. If you want to go on and and on saying silly things over and over, go ahead. I won't answer anyomore of your comments until you answered the dozens of questions/point that I have made earlier in this thread. For now, I am done with you.
Norton was dismissed early by 2 truly great punchers and, when he was past it, KO'd by the streaking Cooney who was a top puncher too.
I'm not convinced that Norton had a glass jaw. A well timed accurate shot can be as damaging as a power shot. Norton took plenty of right hands off Ali and Holmes.
I agree he didn't like punchers who looked to walk through him. I also think that he was susceptible early on in a fight. There's a quote by a fighter, might be from Holmes, can't remember but they said of Norton..."Once Kenny had warmed up he could fight all night."
Morrison has a chance but he is not in the same league as Foreman and didn't punch as hard as Shavers.
Morrison can win but I don't think he would. I really can't see Morrison having much chance with Quarry though.
I'm not convinced that Norton had a glass jaw. A well timed accurate shot can be as damaging as a power shot. Norton took plenty of right hands off Ali and Holmes.
I agree he didn't like punchers who looked to walk through him. I also think that he was susceptible early on in a fight. There's a quote by a fighter, might be from Holmes, can't remember but they said of Norton..."Once Kenny had warmed up he could fight all night."
Morrison has a chance but he is not in the same league as Foreman and didn't punch as hard as Shavers.
Morrison can win but I don't think he would. I really can't see Morrison having much chance with Quarry though.
jerry quarry vs tommy morrison
I feel Quarry was more durable and had a slight skill advantage, although Tommy's edge in power would have made for an interesting first 6 rounds. If Quarry survives that, which I believe he would, he would win a decision going away. But I wouldn't bet my house on it
P.S I don't think there is any need to run either guy down, Quarry was a solid contender in a very good era, whereas Morrison was a fringe top ten contender in another very good era. They were both fun to watch and neither deserve the rubbish thrown their way in this forum
P.S I don't think there is any need to run either guy down, Quarry was a solid contender in a very good era, whereas Morrison was a fringe top ten contender in another very good era. They were both fun to watch and neither deserve the rubbish thrown their way in this forum
-
TheOneIsHere2008
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1181
- Joined: 01 Jul 2008, 12:09
Re: jerry quarry vs tommy morrison
Quarry, on heart alone...
Re: jerry quarry vs tommy morrison
I lost most of my interest in boxing during Tommy Morrison's era, but I've seen enough of him of video to venture a guess that prime Jerry Quarry would deposit his ass on the canvas in about 3 rounds.
-
Harvey Levy
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 43
- Joined: 12 Jul 2008, 20:33
Re: jerry quarry vs tommy morrison
I saw both guys live and my bet would be placed on Quarry for a 15 rd fight. For a ten rounder I would stay away.yancey wrote:I lost most of my interest in boxing during Tommy Morrison's era, but I've seen enough of him of video to venture a guess that prime Jerry Quarry would deposit his ass on the canvas in about 3 rounds.