Could Dargan get a wildcard?

jtyson · Post by **jtyson** » 25 Jul 2007, 13:43

If Dargan wins the Pan Ams, could he recieve a wildcard to compete at the Trials??

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 27 Jul 2007, 11:57

No. There is no wildcard into the Olympic Trials. The 8 boxers in each weight class were determined at the U.S. Championships and there is no other way to participate in the Trials.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 29 Jul 2007, 23:31

Stranger things have happened Mel. I hope they don't do something like that since that is the type of stuff that has caused problems in the past.

kevin1 · Post by **kevin1** » 30 Jul 2007, 00:01

Boy if they did give Dargan a "wild-card" slot for the Pan-Ams then it would open up a legal can of worms. Dargan getting a "wild-card" is out of the question, unless USA Boxing wants endless litigation, and the negative press that would follow. I doubt they need another incident like the Montell Griffin fiasco of 1992.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 30 Jul 2007, 09:24

I guess you're disagreeing with me, Dennis? You think Dargan might get a wildcard? USA Boxing can't afford to do something as stupid as that. I totally agree with Kevin that USAB would be in for a ration of lawsuits and, with no money, it would probably put USAB out of business. Dargan did not qualify at the U.S. Championships. Dargan got a gold medal at the Pan Ams. The two have nothing to do with each other. I definitely think that qualifying a year early stinks - who knows what Dargan might have done had the Olympic Trials been held next year.....

Montell had to threaten to sue USAB to participate in the Olympic Trials in 1992 - USAB had a secret box-off at Ft. Huachuca to determine who went, Griffin or (I think it was) Terry McGroom. In 1996, certain coaches picked their own boxers who had not qualified for the Trials as the "Most Noteworthy" entry. Joe Mesi and Darnell Wilson both threatened to sue; there were two "box-offs" held prior to the Trials where Mesi and Wilson both won.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » 30 Jul 2007, 22:18

boxmel wrote:I guess you're disagreeing with me, Dennis? You think Dargan might get a wildcard? USA Boxing can't afford to do something as stupid as that. I totally agree with Kevin that USAB would be in for a ration of lawsuits and, with no money, it would probably put USAB out of business. Dargan did not qualify at the U.S. Championships. Dargan got a gold medal at the Pan Ams. The two have nothing to do with each other. I definitely think that qualifying a year early stinks - who knows what Dargan might have done had the Olympic Trials been held next year.....

Montell had to threaten to sue USAB to participate in the Olympic Trials in 1992 - USAB had a secret box-off at Ft. Huachuca to determine who went, Griffin or (I think it was) Terry McGroom. In 1996, certain coaches picked their own boxers who had not qualified for the Trials as the "Most Noteworthy" entry. Joe Mesi and Darnell Wilson both threatened to sue; there were two "box-offs" held prior to the Trials where Mesi and Wilson both won.

Is that Darnell "Ding-a-ling Man" Wilson? I had no idea he went to the Olympic trials, I heard he had only 20 amateur fights or so. Anyway, that sounds like some complicated, strange stuff that happened in the past.

jtyson · Post by **jtyson** » 30 Jul 2007, 22:25

Kolya wrote:
boxmel wrote:I guess you're disagreeing with me, Dennis? You think Dargan might get a wildcard? USA Boxing can't afford to do something as stupid as that. I totally agree with Kevin that USAB would be in for a ration of lawsuits and, with no money, it would probably put USAB out of business. Dargan did not qualify at the U.S. Championships. Dargan got a gold medal at the Pan Ams. The two have nothing to do with each other. I definitely think that qualifying a year early stinks - who knows what Dargan might have done had the Olympic Trials been held next year.....

Montell had to threaten to sue USAB to participate in the Olympic Trials in 1992 - USAB had a secret box-off at Ft. Huachuca to determine who went, Griffin or (I think it was) Terry McGroom. In 1996, certain coaches picked their own boxers who had not qualified for the Trials as the "Most Noteworthy" entry. Joe Mesi and Darnell Wilson both threatened to sue; there were two "box-offs" held prior to the Trials where Mesi and Wilson both won.
Is that Darnell "Ding-a-ling Man" Wilson? I had no idea he went to the Olympic trials, I heard he had only 20 amateur fights or so. Anyway, that sounds like some complicated, strange stuff that happened in the past.

Yo ive been wanting to know if it was Ding-a-ling also lol

holeymoley99 · Post by **holeymoley99** » 30 Jul 2007, 22:26

Darnell "Doing Damage" Wilson not Ding a Ling.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » 30 Jul 2007, 22:35

holeymoley99 wrote:Darnell "Doing Damage" Wilson not Ding a Ling.

Too common of a name. I was going to say, Darnell has the trainers I used to work with back in MD. And I hadn't thought he went to the trials. Thanks for clearing it up.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 31 Jul 2007, 09:13

Mel - I was not disagreeing with you. AT LEAST THIS TIME. LOL.

I was just pointing out that with USAB's track record things like that HAVE HAPPENED IN THE PAST. I definitely hope they don't do something like it again. If they don't like that someone like Dargan won't be in the trials, then they need to push hard with AIBA to get the qualifying process changed. The World Championships are the first qualifier so our team needs to be selected by then unless the rule changes to qualifying a weight class for a country rather than a particular boxer. If that happened, then we could have a preliminary selection process for the qualifiers and another final box-off prior to the Olympics. That way our best boxers at the time of the Olympics should be on the team. Maybe then a fat, out of shape, injured SH wouldn't be giving up in his Olympic bout to SAVE HIMSELF for the pros. BTW - it didn't work b/c he isn't doing all that well in the pros either.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 31 Jul 2007, 09:31

Mel - I was not disagreeing with you. AT LEAST THIS TIME. LOL.

Humph. Good thing.

I was just pointing out that with USAB's track record things like that HAVE HAPPENED IN THE PAST.

But only because of threatened or actual law suits. USAB is not in a position to handle any law suits (no dinero).

then they need to push hard with AIBA to get the qualifying process changed. The World Championships are the first qualifier

Not necessarily. In 2004, the first qualifier was the Pan Am Games. Aaron Garcia qualified at the Games and then didn't make our Olympic Team. Same thing happened with Juan McPherson.

so our team needs to be selected by then

We need to go back to qualifying the year of, not the year before. But, then again, there can always be a Garcia or McPherson not making our team.........

JohnDoe · Post by **JohnDoe** » 31 Jul 2007, 14:54

Dargan lost at the US Championships because he wasn't prepared and wasn't the best boxer there that week. He also lost at the PALS too so it's not like he has never lost in a big tournament of late. His PALS' loss should have been a wake-up call, but it wasn't.

He has been waiting around to make the Olympics and boxers that wait lose their momentum and hunger. If Box-Offs were next year instead, probably same result. His striking gold at the Pan-Ams was also partially due to the motivating factor of his losing at the US Championships and it being his last amateur bout.

Live and learn.

It was probably a blessing in disguise.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 31 Jul 2007, 15:28

Invariably, a good assessment. I was really surprised when Mike Dallas beat him at the PAL (although I didn't see the bout). I think he was quoted as saying he wasn't in the best shape at the Championships. Maybe he shouldn't have waited - it's hard to say - as I look at the same names that compete for the Cubans and Eastern Europeans Olympic after Olympic.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 01 Aug 2007, 10:53

Mel - I know about the '04 situation and that is another example of why we need to qualify a country for a weight class and not a particular boxer. I don't like sending only 9 guys to the Olympics. I want a full 11 boxer team.

Even if Dargan would have lost had the selection process been next year, I still would like the team selected closer to the Olympics. I really didn't like the US selection process this year. The best 8 boxers in each weight class are not going to be at the box-offs. Maybe 5-7 of the top 8, but there were some guys that lost out due to the draw and the selection process. There were other guys who made it for the same reasons. Oh well, such is life. I just hope it changes for 2012.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 01 Aug 2007, 12:17

I hope the 2012 selection process changes, too - I think most everyone does. However, I don't think we'll see a "weight class" qualifying (name TBA). Presents a whole raft of administrative problems.

squarering · Post by **squarering** » 01 Aug 2007, 17:44

Mel and Dennis, I would also like to see a different process next time, but the idea of having the midwest, eastern and western trials open to all did give more boxers an opportunity to make it to the USA Championship. I just didn't care for the seeded quarterfinalists form the Pal, GG and Military as it created the "to compete or not to compete, that is the question " problem. Maybe if we had been one of them I would have felt different about that. LOL . It just changed the idea of everyone going to give thier best till the end. Yet no matter what I feel each coach has to do what they think is right.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 01 Aug 2007, 17:50

but the idea of having the midwest, eastern and western trials open to all did give more boxers an opportunity to make it to the USA Championship.

Yep, you're right about that. It also watered down both the quality and quantity of each qualifier. Before, with only the Eastern and Western Trials, we got the tops from both areas, along, of course, with those who were not in the elite group.

I justt didn't care for the seeded quarterfinalists form the Pal, GG and Military.

That's because the U.S. Championships was THE Olympic Trials qualifier this year. Frankly, I didn't like the entire process.

Maybe if we had been one of them I would have felt different about that. LOL

I will give that the barest.............

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 02 Aug 2007, 12:32

squarering wrote:Mel and Dennis, I would also like to see a different process next time, but the idea of having the midwest, eastern and western trials open to all did give more boxers an opportunity to make it to the USA Championship. I just didn't care for the seeded quarterfinalists form the Pal, GG and Military as it created the "to compete or not to compete, that is the question " problem. Maybe if we had been one of them I would have felt different about that. LOL . It just changed the idea of everyone going to give thier best till the end. Yet no matter what I feel each coach has to do what they think is right.

You are complaining and your boxer won!!! That tells everyone that nobody liked the qualifying process for the Trials. Byes into quarters was a big problem and then other guys had to box an extra day because of the byes. Another problem was having weak Regions get their boxers into the US Chp and with the luck of the draw against weak competition make it to the quarterfinals (and a trials berth). Under the old system they would have to actually WIN a qualifier or take 2nd at the US Championships. Finally, the military was given to many advantages. The armed services champions getting an auto berth into the trials is wrong. Most of those guys were not deserving (Downs was and maybe the 152# guy was also). Then each branch was able to enter a boxer into the US Chp. Many of those guys didn't fare too well.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 02 Aug 2007, 13:35

The armed services champions getting an auto berth into the trials is wrong. Most of those guys were not deserving (Downs was and maybe the 152# guy was also). Then each branch was able to enter a boxer into the US Chp. Many of those guys didn't fare too well.

The above has always been the case - nothing new. I think it's just that the services might not have the same quality they've had in the past. The Army boxers have always been the strongest, followed by the Marines, the Navy and the Air Force.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 02 Aug 2007, 18:27

Air Force - did they even have a team - LOL. Sorry, I had to get that dig in there since my son-in-law is in the Air Force (not a boxer though).

Just because it has always been that way, doesn't mean that it should continue. I think they should have to enter the PAL, US Chp, GG or a Trials and win it just like anybody else. We will see how many military guys make the Olympic team. My guess is ONE.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 02 Aug 2007, 20:56

And who would you substitute their slot with? If we go back to the old way: 1 winner from Easters; 1 winner from Western; 1 from Armed Forces; 2 from U.S. Championships; 1 from GG, 1 from PAL and a slot to take the place of the U.S. Challenge (Mid-Western Trials?). If you take out the Armed Forces champs, you'll have to come up with another slot to make the 8 in a weight class.

JohnDoe · Post by **JohnDoe** » 03 Aug 2007, 00:06

Here's a solution:

Top 12 ranked boxers in Open and Top 4 eligible Juniors from previous year go straight to U.S. Championships. The other 16 slots will be filled by U.S. Championship regional qualifiers and fight these guys. From here, top 4 go to Box Offs.

Eliminate all the regional trials and save lots of money.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 03 Aug 2007, 09:28

Top 12 ranked boxers in Open

The rankings start with the U.S. Championships, so that won't work. It would also be hard to use the 4th quarter rankings from the year before since many of those turn pro before the beginning of the new year.

Top 4 eligible Juniors from previous year

Top four JOs? What if they don't turn 17 until after the age determination date? And what do you mean by "eligible juniors?"

go straight to U.S. Championships.

No good if we go back to having the Championships in January in an Olympic year (rather than June).

The other 16 slots will be filled by U.S. Championship regional qualifiers

There are actually 14 non-military and 4 military regions, so that won't work. Plus we are mandated by the USOC to give at large slots in the Championships to the Golden Gloves and PAL. Armed Forces might be included in this, but not sure.

From here, top 4 go to Box Offs.

Why only four? That isn't even a tournament, let alone a box off. One boxer would get a bye and you would have two bouts per weight class.

Eliminate all the regional trials and save lots of money.

Would definitely save the boxers and coaches money. I think it's a very narrow point of view. The current system (8 into the Trials in a double-elimination tournament) and the challenger having to beat the champion twice to get on the team gives many more opportunities to a larger number of boxers.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 03 Aug 2007, 23:31

boxmel wrote:And who would you substitute their slot with? If we go back to the old way: 1 winner from Easters; 1 winner from Western; 1 from Armed Forces; 2 from U.S. Championships; 1 from GG, 1 from PAL and a slot to take the place of the U.S. Challenge (Mid-Western Trials?). If you take out the Armed Forces champs, you'll have to come up with another slot to make the 8 in a weight class.

You could add another qualifier like the Ringside Tourney. That way every tournament is open to every boxer who wishes to enter (and can afford to do so).

JohnDoe · Post by **JohnDoe** » 04 Aug 2007, 15:12

Top 12 Open and Top 4 Juniors old enough to compete (eligible) from PREVIOUS year. If any turn pro, go down the list. Or top 10 and top 6. Work out numbers on regions and PALS/GG. The exact numbers are not the point. The point is to make things SIMPLER so fans can UNDERSTAND and still get the best boxers.

Top 4 because there's no reason for these guys to fight each other over and over and over. And like I said above, amateur boxing, as is, is way too complicated for fans to understand and to make TV workable. Top 4 would be the equivalent of Final Four in NCAA and allow TV to do some back-stories on these guys. Personally, I'd say just combine the Box-Offs and the U.S. Championship Trials.

Amateur boxing is going nowhere without someone aggressive enough to step up and see the trees from the forest and cut expenses and make boxing marketable and relevant and exciting to TV audiences. The Contender is crap but people watch it because they make it dramatic.

Could Dargan get a wildcard?

Could Dargan get a wildcard?

Not Ding A Ling

Re: Not Ding A Ling