I nominate David Tua. Let's take a look at his major fights:
KO19 seconds John Ruiz
TKO12 David Izon
TKO11 Oleg Maskaev
LUD12 Ike Ibeabuchi
TKO10 Hasim Rahman
LUD12 Lennox Lewis
LUD12 Chris Byrd
TKO9 Fres Oquendo
KO1 Michael Moorer
D12 Hasim Rahman
There's little doubt about it, that's a Hall-of-Fame resume, especially when you consider that he wasn't knocked down during any of those fights. But take the following into consideration:
Ruiz and Maskaev were pre-prime. Ruiz hadn't learned to hug yet, and Maskaev was 10-1, in only his second 12-round fight.
Izon, Maskaev, Rahman and Oquendo were all solidly ahead when Tua scored the KO.
The Rahman TKO was early, and off an illegal shot. A much fatter Rahman clearly won the rematch.
Izon, Maskaev, Rahman, Lewis and Oquendo all put Tua in his shell, which is where he goes whenever he's hit with big shots.
Tua was skilled enough to win every single one of those matches. He just didn't take enough chances, and he was fucking lazy.
Tua never showed the brilliance he showed in losing to Ike Ibeabuchi. He was great for just one fight, like Bowe in the first Holyfield fight, Douglas in the Tyson fight, and Turpin in the first Robinson fight.
Still, he has a Hall-of-Fame resume. Future generations will probably have as much trouble determining his place in history as I have.
Hall of fame resume???? You're joking, right?
Wins over Oleg, Ruiz, Oquendo, and Izon put him in the HOF??? (his Rahman stoppage was bogus and he got schooled in the rematch)
[quote="Decagon"]I like top heavyweights. I'd rather the IBHOF induct heavyweights than title claimants in divisions that didn't exist 20 years ago.[/quote]
So David Tua over who . . . someone like Daniel Zaragoza??
Tua is a fat tub of lard who threw away his career on laziness and getting fat. His resume is not even close to being HOF worthy.
Tony Zale had a seven-year title reign and won the title twice, the first to do so since Ketchel. But what it doesn't tell you is that he ducked all of his main challengers the likes of La Motta, Burley, Williams, Marshall, Moore, Booker, Lytell and Cocoa Kid. The title being frozen during the war didn't help his challengers but did kinda help him as it allowed him to have such a long reign.
silkov wrote:Hall of fame???????!!!.... whatever youre on Dec you need to cut it down!.... :x 8)
I didn't gather that Dec was actually saying Tua belongs in the Hall of Fame. What Dec's actually saying is that Tua has enough good names and results on his resume to look like he's almost HOF worthy, when, in fact, he IS the lazy tub of lard that Dempseyfire was talking about.
Hence, the title of the thread. His career DOES look better on paper.
I nominate David Tua. Let's take a look at his major fights:
KO19 seconds John Ruiz
TKO12 David Izon
TKO11 Oleg Maskaev
LUD12 Ike Ibeabuchi
TKO10 Hasim Rahman
LUD12 Lennox Lewis
LUD12 Chris Byrd
TKO9 Fres Oquendo
KO1 Michael Moorer
D12 Hasim Rahman
There's little doubt about it, that's a Hall-of-Fame resume, especially when you consider that he wasn't knocked down during any of those fights. But take the following into consideration:
Ruiz and Maskaev were pre-prime. Ruiz hadn't learned to hug yet, and Maskaev was 10-1, in only his second 12-round fight.
Izon, Maskaev, Rahman and Oquendo were all solidly ahead when Tua scored the KO.
The Rahman TKO was early, and off an illegal shot. A much fatter Rahman clearly won the rematch.
Izon, Maskaev, Rahman, Lewis and Oquendo all put Tua in his shell, which is where he goes whenever he's hit with big shots.
Tua was skilled enough to win every single one of those matches. He just didn't take enough chances, and he was fucking lazy.
Tua never showed the brilliance he showed in losing to Ike Ibeabuchi. He was great for just one fight, like Bowe in the first Holyfield fight, Douglas in the Tyson fight, and Turpin in the first Robinson fight.
Still, he has a Hall-of-Fame resume. Future generations will probably have as much trouble determining his place in history as I have.
You had emphasized on more than one occasion in no uncertain terms that you had little reguard for a fighters performance in a losing effort, and that no matter what his showing it was either a win or it was nothing.
Spider Webb had a great record, and unfortunately is one of the more under-rated fighters in MW history...
Tua did have a tremendous record, but then again, most of the men he fought in his 'prime' had yet to become their own as a fighter...Ruiz was moved up too quickly, nobody knew who the hell Maskaev was then, Ibeabuchi was a flash in the pan and we'll never know how far he really could have went...Michael Moorer was too damned old and never really had that much of a HW chin to begin with...Fres Oquendo never really impressed anybody to begin with...
Throw in his losses to Byrd, Lewis and his three life and death struggles (more like borology) with Hasim Rahman....it only really leaves ONE fight that sums up how good Tua was: IZON, back when he was still something.
And Izon was kicking his ass up until the KO.
I remember back in the day everybody used to call Tua the "Samoan Frazier", I thought it was blasphemous then, and I find it ludacris still. Sure, he met probably more 'top 20' HW's in his career than most of the HW's today, but beating a future champion (Ruiz and Maskaev) when they both were green as gords and beating former ex ex ex champions like Michael Moorer and falling short against the feather fisted Byrd who wasnt even champion then and to Lewis (no shame in that bit, except that Lewis has a glass jaw and Tua didnt take the initiative)...
I can think of many other HW's who never 'made it' who had just as great resumes or better who will never get into the HOF.
Pacquiao. Not suggesting that he doesn't have a good resume, or that he isn't a very good fighter. But against JMM he got a draw, I thought it was a rather clear win for Marquez. Went 2-1 with Morales, but Morales was at his best only in the first fight, he wasn't the same in the second and certainly not the third. I still don't know who wins if you take the Morales of the first fight, or a younger Morales in general, and put him in with the Pacquiao of the second or third fights.
Riddick Bowe... the KO win over Holyfield is questionable since Holyfield claims he had hepatitis and it seemed as though there was something wrong with him in the fight. On paper Bowe is the winner of the trilogy, but in reality I tend to think of it as even. He never fought Lennox Lewis. He got beat up by Golota but didn't get any blemishes on his record because of the two DQ's... on paper he only has one loss.
Speaking of Tua-Ibeabuchi... I thought Ibeabuchi was impressive, but I thought a draw or maybe a Tua win would have been more appropriate. Anyone agree?
My old boxing trainer would have slugged you for saying Zale wasn't a Hall of Famer! He worshipped Zale. Your posting in the BoxRec website, look up Zales record. He fought and beat some of the great Middleweights of his era, which was one of the golden ages for Middleweights. The Iron Man would have certainly cleaned up on this era. Georgie Abrams, Al Hostak, Rocky Graziano, Fred Apostoli, plus a bunch of other tough guys lost to history.
I Feel Fine wrote:Pacquiao. Not suggesting that he doesn't have a good resume, or that he isn't a very good fighter. But against JMM he got a draw, I thought it was a rather clear win for Marquez. Went 2-1 with Morales, but Morales was at his best only in the first fight, he wasn't the same in the second and certainly not the third. I still don't know who wins if you take the Morales of the first fight, or a younger Morales in general, and put him in with the Pacquiao of the second or third fights.
Riddick Bowe... the KO win over Holyfield is questionable since Holyfield claims he had hepatitis and it seemed as though there was something wrong with him in the fight. On paper Bowe is the winner of the trilogy, but in reality I tend to think of it as even. He never fought Lennox Lewis. He got beat up by Golota but didn't get any blemishes on his record because of the two DQ's... on paper he only has one loss.
Speaking of Tua-Ibeabuchi... I thought Ibeabuchi was impressive, but I thought a draw or maybe a Tua win would have been more appropriate. Anyone agree?
First time I saw it with the horrible biased HBO commentating I thought Tua won.
I've watched it several times since then, and for once I think the judges got it right. 8-4 Ike Ibeabuchi. Tua showed the same turtle-shell, "I'll let myself be outworked" asthetic that plagued him his whole career. A few rounds he turned up the heat but most of the fight he was laying on the inside, doing nothing. Over-rated fight in my opinion.
knightbox wrote:My old boxing trainer would have slugged you for saying Zale wasn't a Hall of Famer! He worshipped Zale. Your posting in the BoxRec website, look up Zales record. He fought and beat some of the great Middleweights of his era, which was one of the golden ages for Middleweights. The Iron Man would have certainly cleaned up on this era. Georgie Abrams, Al Hostak, Rocky Graziano, Fred Apostoli, plus a bunch of other tough guys lost to history.
He does have some big wins and I never suggested he is not hall of fame but compare those names to the names I listed of fighters he didn't face. Its clear to see which list has more quality fighters. All I'm saying is that by choosing not to fight many challengers it should damage his legacy although for some reason it doesn't. I feel most of the names I mentioned above would have defeated Zale and because of his unwillingness to fight them their legacy suffers.
Like Holman Williams who has some huge wins and should have got a title shot yet many have not heard of him and he is yet to be inducted in the hall of fame.
I Feel Fine wrote:Pacquiao. Not suggesting that he doesn't have a good resume, or that he isn't a very good fighter. But against JMM he got a draw, I thought it was a rather clear win for Marquez. Went 2-1 with Morales, but Morales was at his best only in the first fight, he wasn't the same in the second and certainly not the third. I still don't know who wins if you take the Morales of the first fight, or a younger Morales in general, and put him in with the Pacquiao of the second or third fights.
Riddick Bowe... the KO win over Holyfield is questionable since Holyfield claims he had hepatitis and it seemed as though there was something wrong with him in the fight. On paper Bowe is the winner of the trilogy, but in reality I tend to think of it as even. He never fought Lennox Lewis. He got beat up by Golota but didn't get any blemishes on his record because of the two DQ's... on paper he only has one loss.
Speaking of Tua-Ibeabuchi... I thought Ibeabuchi was impressive, but I thought a draw or maybe a Tua win would have been more appropriate. Anyone agree?
First time I saw it with the horrible biased HBO commentating I thought Tua won.
I've watched it several times since then, and for once I think the judges got it right. 8-4 Ike Ibeabuchi. Tua showed the same turtle-shell, "I'll let myself be outworked" asthetic that plagued him his whole career. A few rounds he turned up the heat but most of the fight he was laying on the inside, doing nothing. Over-rated fight in my opinion.
Interesting. Maybe I should watch it without the commentary. I think I had Tua up by a point or two, but I just as easily could have had it a draw. I can also see the argument for Ike winning. And, yeah, HBO was with Tua in that fight. They were more with Ike in the Byrd fight. HBO tends to attach itself to the rising star, whether it be Tyson or Jones or Tua or Ike or Taylor, then they drop them like a brick when their career goes south.
If Tua could win a piece of the title, he would have consideration in the HOF.
Ruiz hadn't learned to 'hug' yet? How do you hug in 19 seconds? He got rocked within 5 seconds of the bell, and within 11 seconds he was sucking canvas. Hugging wouldn't save him. Calling Mr. T wouldn't save him. Tua rocked his world.
travrosty wrote:If Tua could win a piece of the title, he would have consideration in the HOF.
Ruiz hadn't learned to 'hug' yet? How do you hug in 19 seconds? He got rocked within 5 seconds of the bell, and within 11 seconds he was sucking canvas. Hugging wouldn't save him. Calling Mr. T wouldn't save him. Tua rocked his world.
Travis Roste
Watch the fight, and try to understand, instead of looking it up on Boxrec. When Ruiz got hurt, instead of trying to survive, he tried to knock Tua out by trading punches.
markl wrote:It's an interesting thread but winning a belt now still wouldn't make him close to HOF.
Morrison
decisioned Foreman
and ko'd
Tillis
Thomas
Williams
Hipp
Ruddock
All of those guys were over the hill and Tua would have knocked him out. But his resume is superior to tua's.
Any Heavyweight in the last decade that was unable to pick up a paper belt is pretty much a journeyman as far as history goes.
It's silly to say that Morrison's resume is superior to Tua's. Tua beat better fighters. End of story.
Tua never really beat anyone of note besides his cheating win over Rahman. And I should give credit to him for beating a green manacconda.
I was never a fan of Morrison's but he is certainly on a par with Tua and that shows how silly the thought of Tua being in the HOF is.
On paper Morrison beat much better fighters. I thought that was the point of the thread?
Before its all said & done if he doesnt turn things around Jermain Taylor will definently fall into this category.
Some youth will someday scan BoxRec and see this guy beat Bernard Hopkins 2 times, drew with Winky Wright, beat multiweight champion Cory Spinks, and other former belt holders like Ouma & Marquez, and will think Taylor is super awsome because he wont know the context that the wins came in. This is coming from someone who has Taylor pretty high in his current P4P also.
:x 
8)