The ATG Light-Heavyweight Tournament

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 18 Jul 2007, 17:59

Btw the votes will be tallied on sunday, as per usual.

votes are now:

6-1 Foster over Maxim

4-3 Moore over Tunney

4-2 Conn over Fitzsimmons

6-0 Charles over Rosenbloom

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 18 Jul 2007, 19:16

Final Answer is......

Foster over Maxim Easy pick for me

Moore over Tunney tough call but who am I to argue with the "gestalt conciousness"

Fitzsimmons over Conn I think the group got this one wrong.

Charles over Rosenbloom Walk in the park.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 19 Jul 2007, 14:32

7-1 Foster over Maxim

5-3 Moore over Tunney

4-3 Conn over Fitzsimmons

7-0 Charles over Rosenbloom

Outside of the men who 'won' their matches in the last two rounds, the remaining men to be in the ATG LHW tournament are: Willie Pastrano, Battling Levinsky, Jimmy Slattery, Gus Lesnevich.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 20 Jul 2007, 16:00

Why do Pastrano,Levinsky,Slattery,and Lesnevich get byes in the first two rounds and automatically make it to the final 8 while everyone else has to win 2 fights to get that far?

Anyway,
Foster KO 10 Maxim
Moore Dec Tunney (may have been a classic)
Fitzsimmons KO 13 Conn
Charles Dec Rosenbloom

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 21 Jul 2007, 00:24

I got messed up while doing this tournament, I had a list of names and I lost it and couldn't remember every single individual, so had to place the 'better' guys twice. Plus I was on hiatus and I completely forgot who was in and w/e while I was gone....so, this next round I'll have Lesnevich and those others duke it out to see who is the best among them and place them with the winners of this. So I apologise for all that.

8-1 Foster over Maxim

6-3 Moore over Tunney

4-4 DRAW between Conn and Fitzsimmons

8-0 Charles over Rosenbloom

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I think what I'll do (rather than wait til Sunday, since it's pretty obvious who will win in this round) is have BoxBuzz do a computer simulation to determine the winner of Conn vs Fitzsimmons (to break the tie) and have Charles, Moore, Foster move on into the tournament while Rosenbloom, Tunney, and Maxim fall out of contention for the "ATG crown".

BoxBuzz if u will so please do the simulation.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 23 Jul 2007, 16:30

Sorry for the double post. But, until Buzz does a simulation between Conn and Fitzsimmons, this tournament can't move on, since we need a tie breaker.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 24 Jul 2007, 07:27

HomicideHenry wrote:Sorry for the double post. But, until Buzz does a simulation between Conn and Fitzsimmons, this tournament can't move on, since we need a tie breaker.

Here is the tie breaker....

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... highlight=

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 24 Jul 2007, 21:56

Billy Conn wins via split decision over Bob Fitzsimmons over 15 rounds.

***********************************************************

Next Round:

Gus Lesnevich vs Battling Levinksy
Jimmy Slattery vs Willie Pastrano

The winners of these two fights will face eachother, and the last man standing will be thrown into the remaining group of fighters:

-Ezzard Charles
-Archie Moore
-Billy Conn
-Bob Foster
-Tommy Loughran

markl · Post by **markl** » 25 Jul 2007, 11:57

Lesnevich ud
Pastrano sd

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 25 Jul 2007, 12:29

Lesnevich 15 round Majority Decision
Slattery 11th round TKO on cuts. Or UD in Slattery's favor at the end of round 11 depending on the rules being utilized.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 25 Jul 2007, 21:19

My own personal predictions is this:

Lesnevich was a ver good champion and rather under-rated as a LHW fighter as a whole. But Lesnevich failed against the better tacticians of his time, such as Billy Conn (twice). He was a tough man, as his face visibly shown as it was worn and nose flattened and ears cauliflowered, so it would be rather difficult to say with certainty that he was 'easily' ever hurt.

But judging by appearances, either he was genuinely an ugly man to begin with or he wasn't too keen on defense. He was a strong fighter and combined with his title reign length, as well as his longetivity as a fighter, he would be a tough opponent for Levinsky---but sadly, I don't see Lesnevich winning.

Why? Levinsky by and large was just a tad bit better all around than Lesnevich. Levinsky also arguably beat the better opposition than Lesnevich. Over 100yrs ago, outside of Bob Fitzsimmons, there was no LHW who was any better, and Levinsky practically beat the best men of his era. His title reign was also longer than Lesnevich's, and while this may not really 'count' as some champions reigns are deceptive (Jack Dempsey was champion 7yrs, though for the last three he didnt defend the title) it does somewhat stack the odds even greater.

Whether anyone likes my logic or not, that's ok. Everyone has opinions, and I see Levinsky winning a close 15 round decision over Lesnevich. Close but unaminous.

************************************************************

Slattery in my mind couldn't beat Willie Pastrano. If Slattery couldn't beat the fast, slick and still green Floyd Patterson, then I can't see Slattery really taking it to Pastrano who was a very defensive and elusive fighter who gave such men as Archie Moore a hard time off and on throughout the rounds. Or maybe I am being biased, considering the Slattery fights happened with Patterson during that transition from LHW to HW and it was the HW Slattery he was up against---and Pastrano, also, I am judging as a HW rather than as a LHW.

Still, even if you bump up both men's speeds by putting them into their primes, Slattery might just have the offense, but I don't think he's got quite enough fire power or the ring science to chase down Pastrano over 15 rounds and get in enough shots to be at optimum effectiveness---I see Pastrano winning with a 15 round decision, but close, possibly much like the De La Hoya-Mayweather fight, with Mayweather (Pastrano) landing the more shots, and De La Hoya (Slattery) being the aggressor throughout.

A 15 round split decision for Willie Pastrano.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 25 Jul 2007, 22:42

Pastrano would cut though..sharp features and all...Slattery had his chance based on that...I also think your assessment is a bit too gifting to Willy. Your Levensky info is interesting...I went back and forth and finally settled for a close one going the other way.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 25 Jul 2007, 23:48

Yeah, there is a good chance Slattery could win on a TKO via cuts, but then again, and maybe I am biased, I look at these hypothetical match-ups (especially with the old fighters) of how matches went on back then, as opposed to now where a fight gets called off on a sneeze. Back then someone's face was a mess and their eyes all but knocked out of their sockets (I know I'm exaggerating) but that is the general thought that in the 'old school' days, it was far more bloodier.

Even if Slattery cuts Pastrano, I think it would take a helluva massive beating before the refs of the 1950's and prior to even think of stopping it. Hence why I believe Pastrano, in part, would win. He might get cut, but I dont think it would be enough to get it stopped.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 26 Jul 2007, 05:43

Levinsky
Pastrano

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 26 Jul 2007, 07:40

HomicideHenry wrote:Yeah, there is a good chance Slattery could win on a TKO via cuts, but then again, and maybe I am biased, I look at these hypothetical match-ups (especially with the old fighters) of how matches went on back then, as opposed to now where a fight gets called off on a sneeze. Back then someone's face was a mess and their eyes all but knocked out of their sockets (I know I'm exaggerating) but that is the general thought that in the 'old school' days, it was far more bloodier.

Even if Slattery cuts Pastrano, I think it would take a helluva massive beating before the refs of the 1950's and prior to even think of stopping it. Hence why I believe Pastrano, in part, would win. He might get cut, but I dont think it would be enough to get it stopped.

I think the "ring sneeze" had been far too underestimated in it's devastation. That's why a good ref these days will study a fighter very carefully if they believe he is perhaps "stuffy" or shows signs of any nasal congestion. God forbid he actually sneeze....thankfully that now calls for a time out allowing for the fighter time to recoup....and of course it could be considered a foul if the sneezing fighter were to actually sneeze in his opponents face. This is after all a civilized society....we are not barbarians.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 26 Jul 2007, 18:47

nice joke.

=invisions someone having to sneeze during a fight with Jack Dempsey, and the Manassa Mauler landing tremendous shots to the nose; guy gets knocked out and bloodied, and Dempsey shrugs like he did against Jack Sharkey proclaiming, "he shouldnt have taken the time to sneeze"=

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 29 Jul 2007, 01:08

Ok, since it is now officially Sunday here, the votes will be tallied:

2-1 Lesnevich over Levinksy and 2-1 Pastrano over Slattery.

That means the next fights to be judged on will be:

Lesnevich vs Pastrano

After this fight is determined (give it 3 days of voting), the tournament will continue on with this matches winner moving into the tournament along side Moore, Charles, Foster, and the others.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 30 Jul 2007, 23:39

Sorry for the double post, but is anybody gonna vote?

Minotauro · Post by **Minotauro** » 31 Jul 2007, 09:16

Gus Lesnevich SD 12 Willie Pastrano

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 31 Jul 2007, 23:37

Lmao, hell i hate to say it, but by ONE vote, it determines the winner of the Lesnevich-Pastrano fight....Lesnevich moves on, while Pastrano stays behind. The tournament will finally continue as it has been

This Round:

Ezzard Charles vs Bob Foster

Archie Moore vs Billy Conn

Gus Lesnevich vs Tommy Loughran

Votes will be tallied on Sunday 8)

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 01 Aug 2007, 03:47

Charles WUD 15 Foster

Moore WKO 14 Conn

Loughran WUD 15 Lesnevich

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 01 Aug 2007, 16:12

My personal predictions:

Charles faces the wrath of Bob Foster...not since facing Marciano and other punchers like Rex Layne and Satterfield has Charles faced this sort of power, especially at LHW. Charles takes the bumps and bruises, and even takes a count of five in the 10th round, but the volume of punches, the speed and experience of facing the best LHW's of the last half century gives him the edge over Foster....he wins by a unaminous decision, winning 8 rounds, 4 for Foster, with 3 even.

Moore takes on possibly an evenly matched opponent. Mind you, both men's ledgers as HW's were equally impressive as they both fought for the HW title twice. Conn could have been a MW champion, just like Moore, and both men are ranked inside the top 5 LHW's of all time. Moore's counter punching style, with Conn's defensive genius and speed makes for a very scientific match-up. It isn't until the 12th round that Moore brings on the heat and tries to beat Conn down, but the courageous Irishman has faced greater power than Moore's in the likes of Joe Louis and he won't go down, not in the 13th, 14th or the 15th round....the fight is a split decision, Billy Conn slightly edges Moore, as he won the early rounds, with the middle rounds being somewhat even, with the last 4 being all Moore's.

Tommy Loughran was such a great tactician that he was once used as a sparring partner for Jack Dempsey to duplicate Gene Tunney in the ring. Loughran had beaten the likes of Jim Braddock, he had faced the monstrous Primo Carnera and went the distance, and he was one of the main players in both the LHW and HW scenes for a long time. Lesnevich was the opposite, he was tough and could be brutal, he was a good boxer, but way behind Loughran in ability....he was willing and game in this contest but couldn't make an effective attack...the fight is unaminous with Loughran winning 10 of the 15 rounds, Lesnevich winning 4 with one even.

Minotauro · Post by **Minotauro** » 02 Aug 2007, 11:04

Charles UD 12 Foster

Moore SD 12 Conn

Loughran UD 12 Lesnevich

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 02 Aug 2007, 16:02

Votes thus far:

3-0 Charles over Foster

2-1 Moore over Conn

3-0 Loughran over Lesnevich

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 03 Aug 2007, 01:12

Ezzard wrote:Charles WUD 15 Foster

Moore WKO 14 Conn

Loughran WUD 15 Lesnevich

I guess I'll go with this.