I decided to do a thread a bit on this man who personified his age. Most either remember him for the classic film "Somebody Up There Likes Me" or from the wars he had with Tony Zale. But let's take a closer analysis of a man RING magazine didn't rank among their top 20 MW's of all time, and see if this man was robbed of his place in boxing history or if it actually is fitting.
The 1940's was a very vibrant and electrifying era in boxing. There was many men who would eventually become HOF's or even ATG's, some even border among the legendary. To name a few: Harold Green, Billy Arnold, Al 'Bummy' Davis, Sonny Horne, Freddie Cochrane, Tony Janiro, Sugar Ray Robinson, Gene Fullmer...roamed the landscape.
Imagine this, if you will, to put it into better perspective: Holyfield, Lewis, Tyson, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Marciano, Patterson, Dempsey all being in the same era...that is what the 1940's and 1950's were for the Middleweights! Everywhere you looked there was a big name star.
In all this mess was juvenile delinquint turn US Army soldier Rocky Graziano (real name Thomas Rocco Barbella). In 1942 he turned pro and capped off an impressive 35-7-5 by the end of 1944, beating along the way Bernie Miller, Jerry Fiorello, Tommy Mollis (more or less grade C opposition), solid but vulnerable guys.
1945 to his peak (usually the Zale wars are considered his best) in 1948, Graziano pulled off 12 more wins (won one out of three against Zale) had 2 losses (both to Zale) and no draws. He beat along the way the likes of Billy Arnold, Al 'Bummy' Davis, Freddie Cochrane, Harold Green, Sonny Horne, Marty Servo, Eddie Finazzo and Jerry Fiorello. Throw in the Zale win, and thats a ridiculously high success rate against some of the best guys in the game at that time.
1949 onward, though, was a down hill slide into oblivion as he went 20-2-1 (pretty good for someone on the downside, eh?), but was still good enough (considering he pulled off the 20 straight wins with the draw) to get a title shot at the legendary Sugar Ray Robinson in 1952. Unfortunately for Graziano, he lost by KO in the 3rd round, and Robinson retired soon afterward after Graziano retired in December of 1952 following his loss to 'television star' (as Larry Merchant put him) Chuck Davey, only to come back a few months later to go after LHW king Joey Maxim.
During 1949 to his losses against Robinson and Davey, Graziano defeated the likes of Tony Janiro (three times), Chuck Hunter, Cecil Hudson, Honeychile Johnson, Reuben Jones, Johnny Greco, Vinnie Cidone, among others...again, a ludacris success rate against some of the better contenders of that time, even sicker still ,considering if you remember Graziano was on the downside.
Even at that though, outside of facing Zale and Robinson and a mixed bag of grade C to B+ contenders, Graziano never did face the likes of Holman Williams, Jake LaMotta (though a match was in the works at one time), Fritzie Zivic, Beau Jack, Laverne Roach, Marcel Cerdan, Gene Fullmer, Bobo Olsen, Joey DeJohn, Laurent Dauthille, Tommy Yarosz, Lloyd Marshall, Ossie Harris, Jose Basora, Jimmy Reeves, Bob Satterfield....and many others.
Looking at his record, it can possibly be suggested that Graziano had the potential to have met and defeated some of the other top MW's of the time. But then again, if he could only split a 1-2-0 record against Tony Zale and lose terribly to a prime MW Sugar Ray Robinson, it's probably safe to say he couldn't have beaten Satterfield, LaMotta, Jack, Fullmer, Cerdan...but possibly a Bobo Olsen he could have.
Yes Graziano was exciting to watch when he fought, and he fought his heart out alot of the time...but I believe RING magazine was probably right in its assumption that due to a lack of better opposition he wasn't quite top 20 material at MW, but I bet he could have given many a MW fighter today a run for their money, including Taylor and Calzaghe.
Rocky Graziano
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
Graziano was an exciting fighter. He used to be talked about a lot more and used to more highly regarded than he seems to be now. He may have been a bit overrated years ago.
He had good punching power but was very easy to hit.
Besides Zale, the victories that were mentioned that he fought from 1945-1948 weren't really anything special at all.
Arnold,Cochrane, and Servo were welterweights, though good welterweights. Finazzo and Fiorello were tomato cans. Harold Green was the only ranked middleweight that Graziano beat during this time.
None of the fighters mentioned that Graziano beat after 1948 that were ranked either.
On the other hand, I don't understand some of the names mentioned that Graziano supposedly should have fought:
1.Beau Jack was a lightweight, and a small welterweight. Why would Graziano have fought him?
2.Satterfield was a lightheavyweight and later a heavyweight. Why should Graziano be criticized for not fighting him?
3. Fullmer was 9 years younger than Graziano and was just starting his career when Graziano retired. It's quite possible that Graziano had never even heard of Fullmer at the time he retired.
Agree that he could have fought LaMotta and Cerdan and probably would have lost.
Graziano was a small middleweight and probably would have been a Jr middleweight had the division existed back then. He did have a career that is difficult to evaluate.
He had good punching power but was very easy to hit.
Besides Zale, the victories that were mentioned that he fought from 1945-1948 weren't really anything special at all.
Arnold,Cochrane, and Servo were welterweights, though good welterweights. Finazzo and Fiorello were tomato cans. Harold Green was the only ranked middleweight that Graziano beat during this time.
None of the fighters mentioned that Graziano beat after 1948 that were ranked either.
On the other hand, I don't understand some of the names mentioned that Graziano supposedly should have fought:
1.Beau Jack was a lightweight, and a small welterweight. Why would Graziano have fought him?
2.Satterfield was a lightheavyweight and later a heavyweight. Why should Graziano be criticized for not fighting him?
3. Fullmer was 9 years younger than Graziano and was just starting his career when Graziano retired. It's quite possible that Graziano had never even heard of Fullmer at the time he retired.
Agree that he could have fought LaMotta and Cerdan and probably would have lost.
Graziano was a small middleweight and probably would have been a Jr middleweight had the division existed back then. He did have a career that is difficult to evaluate.
Re: Rocky Graziano
I love it.HomicideHenry wrote:
The 1940's was a very vibrant and electrifying era in boxing. There was many men who would eventually become HOF's or even ATG's, some even border among the legendary. To name a few: Harold Green, Billy Arnold, Al 'Bummy' Davis, Sonny Horne, Freddie Cochrane, Tony Janiro, Sugar Ray Robinson, Gene Fullmer...roamed the landscape.
Fullmer had his first pro fight in 1951
his last in 1963
Re: Rocky Graziano
BEAU JACK ? Yeah and Graziano never fought Ike Williams or Bob Montgomery either. LOLHomicideHenry wrote:
Graziano never did face the likes of ...Beau Jack ... Gene Fullmer ... Bob Satterfield ....and many others.
Graziano retired while GENE FULLMER was still having preliminary fights in Utah.
Do you think Graziano should have travelled to Utah to fight a 4 or 6 round bout with then preliminary fighter Fullmer? LOL
BOB SATTERFIELD fought Ezzard Charles, Rex Layne, Nino Valdez.
Maybe you think Graziano should have fought them too?
I love it.
SUCH knowledge you display.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
I mentioned Satterfield because Jake LaMotta had fought him, and LaMotta at best (in today's standards) would have been a Super Middleweight. I mentioned Beau Jack, because Jack fought many a great MW as well, dont believe me look up the records of all those great MW's and Jack's name is among some. Jack, LaMotta, Basilio, etc were all division jumpers. It wasnt uncommon that men would jump from Lightweight to Welterweight to Middleweight, etc.
As far as Fullmer is concerned, I might have jumped the gun on it, but then again, all these men were either fighting in the late 40's to mid 50's and beyond; in short, I was just bunching together the biggest names of the 1940's and 1950's. So for that I apologise.
The point I was trying to make was that Graziano didn't make the top 20 MW's in history, is because outside of his power, ferocity and popularity he never really fought any one single fighter at their best or who would have been a meaningful victory, outside of a prime MW Sugar Ray Robinson and by then Graziano was on the decline.
MW's and/or MW fights Beau Jack had fought:
Tony Janiro, Fritzie Zivic, Al 'Bummy' Davis, Kid Gavilan (Gavilan was a pound over Welterweight), Ike Williams (both men were 150 or over when they fought).
As far as Fullmer is concerned, I might have jumped the gun on it, but then again, all these men were either fighting in the late 40's to mid 50's and beyond; in short, I was just bunching together the biggest names of the 1940's and 1950's. So for that I apologise.
The point I was trying to make was that Graziano didn't make the top 20 MW's in history, is because outside of his power, ferocity and popularity he never really fought any one single fighter at their best or who would have been a meaningful victory, outside of a prime MW Sugar Ray Robinson and by then Graziano was on the decline.
MW's and/or MW fights Beau Jack had fought:
Tony Janiro, Fritzie Zivic, Al 'Bummy' Davis, Kid Gavilan (Gavilan was a pound over Welterweight), Ike Williams (both men were 150 or over when they fought).
If you can't even get fighters in the right weight class you should give it up.HomicideHenry wrote:
MW's and/or MW fights Beau Jack had fought:
Tony Janiro, Fritzie Zivic, Al 'Bummy' Davis, Kid Gavilan (Gavilan was a pound over Welterweight), Ike Williams (both men were 150 or over when they fought).
Fritzie Zivic was a welterweight--NEVER a middleweight.
Ike Williams was a lightweight who fought a few fights just above that weight on the very end of his career.
Bummy Davis was a welterweight. He weighed 146 when he fought Graziano.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
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..graziano was tagged as the "toughest middleweight in the welterweight division". he even bragged "I can beat any welterweight in the world." robinson, when at that weight, laughed and said "he thinks he can even beat me!"....a statement rocky didn't try to prove. exciting fighter...small middleweight....made his reputation on the first two fights against zale....oddly, each fighter handed out the most punishment in the fight they lost. 3rd fight....zale all the way. referee awful in that one. even rocky said the ref should have stopped it after the first knockdown. rocky burst on the scene with his dramatic kayo of the then highly regarded billy arnold. on the verge of defeat he grabbed arnold by the throat and held him against the ropes until he kauyod him. fun and thrilling to watch, he was never one of the all time great middleweights.
he came out of retirement to add to the build up of chuck davey, whom he "fought" with the handcuffs on...and by mistake still had him in trouble at one point. i've written a couple of times here about how i had him laughing about that one, so i won't repeat it .
in his post-fight career he took up painting....liked to copy picasso and braque, among others, and was good at it. though they were lifelong friends, just about everybody liked rocky in those later years, while it's hard to find anyone who like lamotta.
he came out of retirement to add to the build up of chuck davey, whom he "fought" with the handcuffs on...and by mistake still had him in trouble at one point. i've written a couple of times here about how i had him laughing about that one, so i won't repeat it .
in his post-fight career he took up painting....liked to copy picasso and braque, among others, and was good at it. though they were lifelong friends, just about everybody liked rocky in those later years, while it's hard to find anyone who like lamotta.