Favourite boxer who never made it big?

[Jaclem]

..decagon...right on! there's no doubt that oba would have won the welter title if he came along at a different time.

re: scoring points for knockdowns---again, i agree. when i score a fight i judge for myself if there was or wasn't a knockdown. it irritates me when a tv announcer says "the referee called it a knockdown, so that's a two point round"....well, the hell with the referee....i can see for myself if the guy was down or not. also, not often, but every now and then i'll see a round in which a fighter has a very good one and is knocked down....and i'll judge the fight ten nine instead of ten eight.

[Expug]

Bennie Briscoe
Cyclone Hart
Gypsy Joe Harris
YaQui Lopez
Bobby Cassidy

Some guys I knew:
Johnny Lira
Jesse Torres
Lenny Lapaglia
Louie Mateo
James Quick Tillis
Young Joe Louis
Randy Smith
Henry Sims
Johnny Heard

[sockdolager]

I worked with a relitively unknown former fighter named Dennis Freeman in Woburn MA. He fought pro under the name Danny Fryman but had other fights with different names because he was still fighting in the amateurs at the same time. He is a cranky ol fvck but always loved to talk about his fights and he was thrilled that I knew about boxing to talk to..

[kick asner]

James Pritchard from the standpoint he would either knock em out or get knocked out.

[kick asner]

Bennie Briscoe
Cyclone Hart
Gypsy Joe Harris
YaQui Lopez
Bobby Cassidy

Some guys I knew:
Johnny Lira
Jesse Torres
Lenny Lapaglia
Louie Mateo
James Quick Tillis
Young Joe Louis
Randy Smith
Henry Sims
Johnny Heard

I remember Johnny Lira fighting once on ABC in a title fight against Erenesto Espana. Very exciting fight. Lira scored a knockdown only to be stopped a couple rounds later. Correct me if I am wrong but I think they talked about him being a late starter. That might have hurt his career. He showed allot of heart and potential, but due to the late start was a liitle green. I think.

[Expug]

Bennie Briscoe
Cyclone Hart
Gypsy Joe Harris
YaQui Lopez
Bobby Cassidy

Some guys I knew:
Johnny Lira
Jesse Torres
Lenny Lapaglia
Louie Mateo
James Quick Tillis
Young Joe Louis
Randy Smith
Henry Sims
Johnny Heard

I remember Johnny Lira fighting once on ABC in a title fight against Erenesto Espana. Very exciting fight. Lira scored a knockdown only to be stopped a couple rounds later. Correct me if I am wrong but I think they talked about him being a late starter. That might have hurt his career. He showed allot of heart and potential, but due to the late start was a liitle green. I think.

Johnnys a tough guy.
We trained in the same gym in the eighties, a place called the US Arena at Division and Damen in Chicago back in the early eighties.
Hes a good guy , but as a youngster he had lots of run ins with the law. Gang banging mostly. Some of it very serious though.
I was at the Conrad Hilton when Johnny fought Espana.
Good fight and Johnny was doing well but got his jaw busted.
He had a decent am. career and when he turned pro he went out to Vegas.
He made his bones by belting out Andy Gannigan in Hawaii .
I remember right after the fight Johnny came back to Chicago and I asked him about the fight.
He had stopped by the old CYO gym where he worked out as an am. and sometimes as a pro.
I worked out as an am. there.
Johnny said as soon "as Gannigan turned it into a streetfight, I knew I was gonna knock him out".
Thats the kind of guy he was.
He is still always ready to throw hands.
In the ring or out.
I used to have a real sore left hand all the time, and Lira would make these gauze pads for me that I could wear over the wraps on my hand when hittin the heavy bag.
He used to say "Us Irishman have to stick together".
He was Italian , but his hair was kinda red.
I last saw him about a year ago at a discussion group about Barney Ross at a bookstore in Ross' old neighborhood.
Bert Sugar was emceeing the thing, or I should say monopolizing it.

[kick asner]

Bennie Briscoe
Cyclone Hart
Gypsy Joe Harris
YaQui Lopez
Bobby Cassidy

Some guys I knew:
Johnny Lira
Jesse Torres
Lenny Lapaglia
Louie Mateo
James Quick Tillis
Young Joe Louis
Randy Smith
Henry Sims
Johnny Heard

I remember Johnny Lira fighting once on ABC in a title fight against Erenesto Espana. Very exciting fight. Lira scored a knockdown only to be stopped a couple rounds later. Correct me if I am wrong but I think they talked about him being a late starter. That might have hurt his career. He showed allot of heart and potential, but due to the late start was a liitle green. I think.

Johnnys a tough guy.
We trained in the same gym in the eighties, a place called the US Arena at Division and Damen in Chicago back in the early eighties.
Hes a good guy , but as a youngster he had lots of run ins with the law. Gang banging mostly. Some of it very serious though.
I was at the Conrad Hilton when Johnny fought Espana.
Good fight and Johnny was doing well but got his jaw busted.
He had a decent am. career and when he turned pro he went out to Vegas.
He made his bones by belting out Andy Gannigan in Hawaii .
I remember right after the fight Johnny came back to Chicago and I asked him about the fight.
He had stopped by the old CYO gym where he worked out as an am. and sometimes as a pro.
I worked out as an am. there.
Johnny said as soon "as Gannigan turned it into a streetfight, I knew I was gonna knock him out".
Thats the kind of guy he was.
He is still always ready to throw hands.
In the ring or out.
I used to have a real sore left hand all the time, and Lira would make these gauze pads for me that I could wear over the wraps on my hand when hittin the heavy bag.
He used to say "Us Irishman have to stick together".
He was Italian , but his hair was kinda red.
I last saw him about a year ago at a discussion group about Barney Ross at a bookstore in Ross' old neighborhood.
Bert Sugar was emceeing the thing, or I should say monopolizing it.

Nice human interest story.

Old Bert likes the sound of his own voice.

[Seamus]

I dated a girl in the mid 80's who claimed she was Johnny Lira's cousin. Never checked it out though.

[Jaclem]

..i dated a girl who LOOKED exactly like johnny lira...wonder if it was the same one...

[knightbox]

What possible era could Oba Carr have won a title in? I can't even imagine it, the welterweights have always been tough. Back to the topic, a favorite of mine was Lupe Gutierrez. He fought out of Turlock, Modesto area. Looked good when he first came up, beat Jeff Franklin in a thriller, then went south after Jorge Paez knocked him out.

[Grant]

Tom 'the bomb' Bethea.

Knocked tf out of Nino Benvenuti, then it was all downhill.

[Jaclem]

..knightbox...welcome to the forum...it's always nice to see new names come along,and several of us here will be glad to help in your education. actually, it's your imagination that needs expansion...as you say you can't imagine a welter era in which oba car would go farther. you may have the same limitation as i just thought of another welter..hedgemon lewis..who might have benefited from better placement by father time.

the welter division, like all others has its peaks and valleys.....for instance, i do think oba and hedgemon would have done better against the crop that was around when don jordan, say, was champion. of course, there were some factors too many of the boxers had to deal with then....frankie carbo's influence muddled things up a bit.

if you are interested in knowing who frankie carbo was, boxbuzz is one of the historians who could take the time to tell you.....he's not as busy as i am and enjoys displaying knowledge...just send him a personal message and he will be happy to reply. be sure to tell him i sent you.

[Expug]

Bennie Briscoe
Cyclone Hart
Gypsy Joe Harris
YaQui Lopez
Bobby Cassidy

Some guys I knew:
Johnny Lira
Jesse Torres
Lenny Lapaglia
Louie Mateo
James Quick Tillis
Young Joe Louis
Randy Smith
Henry Sims
Johnny Heard

Warren, Taylor or Chase?

Eddie Taylor.
He fought Leroy Murphy for Leroys cruiserweight belt.

[knightbox]

Jaclem, I am happy to share or argue an opinion, and of course anyone can learn new information or change an opinion. I have been watching, attending, and studying boxing for most of my life, which is now going on 46 years. Oba Carr was a good fighter, but I stand by what I said. He wasn't good enough to be a champ in any era I have studied. Maybe he was good enough to beat Don Jordan, I can't say, but could he have beaten the guys he would have had to beat to get into that position? I doubt it. I agree with you about Hedgemon Lewis, he was a top notch boxer who lost a close fight to a true champion, Jose Napoles, a fight which I watched on TV. But Oba was no Hedgemon.

[Jaclem]

..darn it knightbox....obviously you are going to be intelligent, even tempered , courteous and have an open mind. drat. i'm running out of people to argue with. yeah, hedgemon was someting else, wasn't he. had speed and skill and knew how to use both.

....i'm not going to back down on oba carr, but i think hedgemon was much the better of the two.

[bollox]

I think it was Oba Carr that when fighting for Kronk, Manny Steward let boxing fans decide who his opponent should be and the match was made (can't remember the opponent). Carr nearly lost the fight and his management quickly scrapped that idea

[bobbyd]

Michael Grant. Al Cole. I love shitty heavwyeights. I was actually a bigger fan of Acelino Freitas's brother than of Acelino. I forgot his name.

If you love shitty heavies,then why the hell did you toilet plunge my showdown of the shitty heavyweight's posts?
Example.The tex cobb vs. lou savarese post.
Both shitty but fun to watch if they're fighting someone similarily shitty.
Yeah.I know tex could take a much better punch than lou but the lou that fought foreman would've made a good competitive foe for tex.As long as he stayed on the outside and boxed he'd probably go into the late rounds with tex and who knows...Might've even outpointed the heavy handed but quite slow,ponderous and outboxable tex.
Just sayin. .......No need to get into an uproar....Right?

[knightbox]

I would have to take Tex Cobb by KO against Savarese. 15 rounds with Holmes, his KO of Shavers and I thought he drew against Dokes, though the record says split decision loss. That speaks to his quality. To Jaclem, I have been converting my massive VHS collection to DVD (I started recording in 1978 on a betamax) so I will give Oba Carr a second look. I just remember him being good at everything but not being particularly great at anything. But since you feel so strongly about it...

[Jaclem]

..knightbox....i don't actually feel terribly strong about oba.....i just thought he was an overall good fighter who challenged some very good guys and came up short. it has been a long long time since i've seen him..and i don't have anything on tape. i did think he lost to livingstone bramble when he was given the decision. i also thought he was a better fighter after that and maybe learned from it. a loss..which it was...will often do that to a good fighter. oba might have been one of t hose guys who would have been good and stayed in the top ten in any era but wouldn't have had enough to become champion. i'm not backing off.....i still think with timing and luck he could have picked up a crown.

the timing....the late fifties...i think he could have hung in there with virgil aikins, isaac logart, vince martinez, del flanagan..who were in the top ten when don jordan was champion. some good fighters here, but i'd give car an even shot at them.

now...i am highly interested in your assessment afteer you take a look at your dvds.

[joe kurtz]

risen to the occasion & won a title had the right match up come along. He just had the piss poor luck to get all three of his championship opportunities against three excellent fighters in the I'm gonna stick up for Carr on this one gentleman. I definitely feel that had he been born a few years earlier or a few years later that he'd have prime of their respective careers & was highly competetive with each of them.

He dropped Trinidad in a war, dropped a very tight decision to Quartey & I also had him a point or two ahead of Delahoya before the roof came crashing in on him. And by that point, I think Oba was actually a bit past it.

Truth be told, I was never even all that big of a fan of Carr's. I just saw him fight SO many times on television over the years against so many decent fighters that it was only in retrospect once his careerr was through that I realized that he just might have been a lot better than I ever gave him credit for. You know what I mean?

As for those 147 LB champions that have reigned in what I call "my boxing lifetime" ( which began in 1976 when I was 14 & became a diehard fan of the sport ), I'd say that at his very best he may have very well beaten John H. Stracey, Angel Espada, Donald Curry ( whom I always thought was a bit overrated ), Lloyd Honeyghan, Jorge Vaca, Mark Breland, Aaron Davis, Meldrick Taylor, Crisanto Espana, Buddy McGirt, Mo Blocker, Simon Brown, Ricardo Mayorga, Corey Spinks, Zab Judah & that's not even including all those various WBO champions like Yory Boy ( whom Carr DID beat, but after Campas had dropped the belt to ... ), Jose Luis Lopez & others.

[KOJOE90]

Jon Thaxton.

(Unless he get to fight Amir Khan very soon and KO's him, then he just may make it 'big' at least here in the UK anyway)

[markl]

I think it was Oba Carr that when fighting for Kronk, Manny Steward let boxing fans decide who his opponent should be and the match was made (can't remember the opponent). Carr nearly lost the fight and his management quickly scrapped that idea

I think it ws Bramble. And Livingstone got robbed in that fight. One of the best TNF wars ever.

[The Great John L]

I think it was Oba Carr that when fighting for Kronk, Manny Steward let boxing fans decide who his opponent should be and the match was made (can't remember the opponent). Carr nearly lost the fight and his management quickly scrapped that idea

I think it ws Bramble. And Livingstone got robbed in that fight. One of the best TNF wars ever.

Yes, the Pit Bull defnitiely got robbed in a great fight, although Oba showed a lot of heart in that fight.

[Nile4000]

Greg Page.Could have been way bigger than what he was if certain variables were right.

Funny you mention him. Mine was George Chaplin. Growing up in baltimore,MD. He along with Vince Pettway were the only guys from my area to hit the big time.

Chaplin was robbed twice against Greg Page in a horrid way. First fight should have been 7-3 George and the second one was about 10-2.

He beat an old Shavers, lost a close fight to Dokes and eventually got crushed by Cooney.

Others were

Curtis Parker,Hard Rock Green,Clint Jackson,Alex Ramos

Yeah, I love Middleweights

John Locicero was another one. When I was 10 or 11 I saw him fight Caveman Lee on ESPN. Anyone who has never seen that fight has missed out on one of the GOAT. He also knocked out Tony Danza.

Guys who achieved a high level but not nearly as high as I thought they would

Howard Davis jr, Hilmer Kenty

I could see Chaplin winning both those fights, much as I hate to admit it.Howard and Hilmer both should have been bigger than what they were.If things had gone right, they could have had a unification showdown in 1981.

[Expug]

I remember Johnny Lira fighting once on ABC in a title fight against Erenesto Espana. Very exciting fight. Lira scored a knockdown only to be stopped a couple rounds later. Correct me if I am wrong but I think they talked about him being a late starter. That might have hurt his career. He showed allot of heart and potential, but due to the late start was a liitle green. I think.

Johnnys a tough guy.
We trained in the same gym in the eighties, a place called the US Arena at Division and Damen in Chicago back in the early eighties.
Hes a good guy , but as a youngster he had lots of run ins with the law. Gang banging mostly. Some of it very serious though.
I was at the Conrad Hilton when Johnny fought Espana.
Good fight and Johnny was doing well but got his jaw busted.
He had a decent am. career and when he turned pro he went out to Vegas.
He made his bones by belting out Andy Gannigan in Hawaii .
I remember right after the fight Johnny came back to Chicago and I asked him about the fight.
He had stopped by the old CYO gym where he worked out as an am. and sometimes as a pro.
I worked out as an am. there.
Johnny said as soon "as Gannigan turned it into a streetfight, I knew I was gonna knock him out".
Thats the kind of guy he was.
He is still always ready to throw hands.
In the ring or out.
I used to have a real sore left hand all the time, and Lira would make these gauze pads for me that I could wear over the wraps on my hand when hittin the heavy bag.
He used to say "Us Irishman have to stick together".
He was Italian , but his hair was kinda red.
I last saw him about a year ago at a discussion group about Barney Ross at a bookstore in Ross' old neighborhood.
Bert Sugar was emceeing the thing, or I should say monopolizing it.

Nice human interest story.

Old Bert likes the sound of his own voice.

Update on Johnny Lira.
He was on the stand in Chicagos Family Secrets mob trial today.
He was serving as a character witness for reputed outfit boss Joey "The Clown"Lombardo.
They have known each other for a long time and are from the same neighborhood.