Exposing the Myths

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 06 Jul 2007, 15:14

Senya13 wrote:I simply pointed out Ali admitted Cooper's punch was very hard too, so claiming that Frazier's punch was much-much harder would be difficult to prove. I may agree that Frazier's punch was harder, but it should also be considered that it happened near the end of the fight, after gruelling 14 rounds, so the effect of the punch might have looked somewhat exaggerated by Ali's exhaustion.
Stop trying to attribute me with statements I didn't say.

youre doing fine without my intervention pal... Ali said Cooper hit him hardest when he had NOTHING ELSE TO COMPARE IT TO no Foreman, no Frazier, No Shavers...... your point is only valid up to the Cooper fight, and invalid thereafter...

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 06 Jul 2007, 15:33

What is my point? Just because somebody else hit Ali with harder punches afterwards doesn't change the fact that Ali admitted up to that point Cooper hit him the hardest. The fact will stay that Cooper hit him with very hard punch. My point doesn't become invalid, because my point is not what you are trying to make it to be.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 06 Jul 2007, 22:18

senya, have you checked out that BBC radio clip yet?

You claimed you'd be the first to admit you were wrong if that too showed only 65 seconds between rounds.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 07 Jul 2007, 00:10

Collins2000 wrote:You claimed you'd be the first to admit you were wrong if that too showed only 65 seconds between rounds.

I already admitted I was wrong in trusting to Ring magazine or to Hauser book and Dundee's words. That's the only thing I was dead wrong at doing on this matter.

barry · Post by **barry** » 07 Jul 2007, 07:03

>>>I simply pointed out Ali admitted Cooper's punch was very hard too, so claiming that Frazier's punch was much-much harder would be difficult to prove.<<<

Well considering that the quote you used was said in 1963 then I would imagine that it wouldn't be hard at all to come up with a quote about Frazier. Ali has always stated that Frazier was the best that he had faced.

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 07 Jul 2007, 13:56

~ MIKEE ~ wrote:
Senya13 wrote:I simply pointed out Ali admitted Cooper's punch was very hard too, so claiming that Frazier's punch was much-much harder would be difficult to prove. I may agree that Frazier's punch was harder, but it should also be considered that it happened near the end of the fight, after gruelling 14 rounds, so the effect of the punch might have looked somewhat exaggerated by Ali's exhaustion.
Stop trying to attribute me with statements I didn't say.
youre doing fine without my intervention pal... Ali said Cooper hit him hardest when he had NOTHING ELSE TO COMPARE IT TO no Foreman, no Frazier, No Shavers...... your point is only valid up to the Cooper fight, and invalid thereafter...

To be honest I think Coopers hook had more of a visable effect on Ali than any other punch I can remember him taking. Cooper sent him flying backwards and Ali was out of it. The fact that Ali tried to stand back up in the corner and needed smelling salts to bring him round speaks volumes. I'm in no doubt that if that punch landed 2 minutes earlier Cooper would have stopped him.

Not bad considering Cooper at best was an average European fighter. He did have a very good left hook though. The 'official' weight difference was 22lbs (1 stone 8lbs) although Cooper later admitted he weighed in with a tracksuit on and weights tied on him because he was too light and under the light-heavyweight limit. Now that makes his punch look even better.

Yes Shavers and Foreman may have hurt Ali more, but no-one had him in that much trouble in his career. Something Cooper can be very proud of.

T.M.K · Post by **T.M.K** » 01 Aug 2007, 07:46

livingstone cole wrote:Dispelling the myth of Rocky Marciano.
He lost his first fight then returned to the amatuers, then came back o the pros and won 49 straight.

Dispelling the second myth about Marciano.
The above version of events is completely untrue.

Wow. Do we have actual proof it is untrue?

best wishes

"T.M.K"

T.M.K · Post by **T.M.K** » 01 Aug 2007, 07:56

Myth: "If Ali's trainer hadn't messed around with the glove, then Henry Cooper would have been Heavyweight champion of the world"

I have told my dad (and peers of his, all the same era/age) so many times that they are wrong with this "fact" that I cannot be bothered to keep doing it. It seems anyone who was lad at that time comes out with this statement whenever Ali is spoken of.

Truth: forget the glove and the tear - this was the first fight, there was no title on the line as Clay had not even won the world title yet (my dad and his crew are confusing the rematch with the first fight).

===============================================

Myth: Ali was pounding Sonny Liston (or "beating him all over the ring" etc etc) when the champ retired in his corner between rounds.

Truth: the cards were even, the fight was dead-level.

===============================================

Myth: Rocky Marciano is the only man to ever be completely unbeaten in his career. (often written by bad sports journalists)

Truth: There have been many.

===============================================

Myth: Rocky Marciano is the only world champion to ever be completely unbeaten in his career. (often written by bad Boxing journalists)

Truth: there have been a few - just not at Heavyweight.

==============================================

What a fantastic topic! Brilliant, best I've seen in AGES.

"T.M.K"

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 01 Aug 2007, 16:48

Ironically, two decades or so to the day of the first Ali-Cooper fight, when Mike Tyson fought Pinklon Thomas (Dundee was in Thomas' corner) after the 5th round there was a tear in the glove and it had to be replaced....now, whats ironic is that Thomas was all but out on his feet (much like what happened in the Ali-Cooper bout) and then that happened....

But unlike Ali-Cooper, all it did was postpone the inevitable, as Tyson knocked Thomas out in the 6th.....coincidence? Maybe, or it could have been a weak attempt at revenge considering Tyson blew away Berbick some months before, and guess who was in Berbick's corner? Angello Dundee.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 01 Aug 2007, 22:27

T.M.K wrote:
Myth: Ali was pounding Sonny Liston (or "beating him all over the ring" etc etc) when the champ retired in his corner between rounds.

Truth: the cards were even, the fight was dead-level.

The cards were even on Whitaker-Chavez as well... Liston won two rounds at best.

As for Clay-Cooper, it may very well be the most over stated fight of all time. It doesn't really prove any of the things people want it to prove. It doesn't prove that Ali only got to where he was due to a series of breaks; the glove story is a myth, as is the claim that his fight with Doug Jones was a robbery. It doesn't prove that Ali couldn't take a punch, he was still a very young fighter and he had only been hit hard but once in his pro career prior to that fight. The Frazier left hook in the 15th was not only more devastating, but it came after an accumulation of blows over the course of a brutal 15 round battle. And that's ignoring all the other bombs Ali took in his career against big punchers. But people who don't like Ali tend to focus on 63 and 76-81... best not to mention what happened inbetween.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 04 Aug 2007, 12:31

The amateur fights do throw people off, but I guess what is an even more amazing fact is that despite Marciano's amateur record (he only had a little over a dozen fights) he was a prime candidate for the Olympics and if he had not suffered a broken hand he would have represented America and could have been one of five men who were Olympic Gold medalists who later became HW champion: Floyd Patterson, Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, Leon Spinks (and of course Marciano himself had he went into the Olympics and won).

But then again, the myth also falls into similar myths:

-Joe Louis had a 26th title defense
-George Dixon 'lost' his title to Walter Edgerton
-Max Baer 'lost' to an 0-0-0 fighter

But, all these 'myths' all proven to be exhibitions and nothing more...or are they?

T.M.K · Post by **T.M.K** » 07 Aug 2007, 03:22

HomicideHenry wrote:...could have been one of five men who were Olympic Gold medalists who later became HW champion: Floyd Patterson, Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, Leon Spinks (and of course Marciano himself had he went into the Olympics and won).

6. George Foreman.

best wishes

"T.M.K"

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 07 Aug 2007, 10:52

Actually it would be 7 since Michael Spinks won a gold medal in the 1976 Olympics and won the IBF heavyweight title.
It would be 8 if you count Ray Mercer winning the WBO title. I don't myself.
I keep thinking there may be someone else, but can't think of anyone.

Brett Paul Dunbar · Post by **Brett Paul Dunbar** » 07 Aug 2007, 20:39

Ambling Alp wrote:Actually it would be 7 since Michael Spinks won a gold medal in the 1976 Olympics and won the IBF heavyweight title.
It would be 8 if you count Ray Mercer winning the WBO title. I don't myself.
I keep thinking there may be someone else, but can't think of anyone.

Two more, Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko, Super Heavyweight Gold Medalists 1988 and 1996 respectively.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 08 Aug 2007, 08:24

HomicideHenry was only talking about fighters that represented America and won a gold medal in the Olympics, then won the heavyweight title.

But yeah, Lewis and Klitschko did win gold medals and won the heavyweight title.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 08 Aug 2007, 13:27

Myth.

"The last thing a Boxer loses is his punch".

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 08 Aug 2007, 17:00

I sort of believe in that particular 'myth'. I believe it works for punchers, but not for fighters across the board. A puncher's best asset is his punch, and usually no matter how old they are, they still maintain some of it throughout the years.

Take Foreman for instance, coming back in his late 30's and retiring in 1997, he was able to shake up Holyfield, knock out Moorer, knock out Cooney---and this was when nobody believed that the man could fight no more cus he was too 'old'.

Or how about Bob Fitzsimmons? He fought on until he was 50, and really the only thing that kept him around was that punching prowess. Or how about how Ali said Marciano was still amazingly strong during the filming of the SuperFight? Or how about when Jerry Evans came back in his 50's against a former world kick boxing champion and he said Jerry still hit like a horse? How about Earnie Shavers? By the time he fought Cobb he was shot, but everybody still said that he had the power to vaporise alot of the HW's around in the division at that time.

Maybe a more modern example is Holyfield, and how he still was able to drop Fres Oquendo with a bod shot and an over hand right in the 1st. Same thing he did to Lou Savarese, and he obviously stopped Maddalone and Bates.

Or how about Tyson? Outside of his toughness and power, he had nothing left. It was that power, that still had him beat Francis, Norris, Botha, Golota, Nielsen and Ettienne. They weren't good fighters, yes, but it showed Tyson still had his punch, though he was really a shot fighter. He had one last flash of his former glories in the first round against Lewis and had the big man stunned, after that it was all down hill.

But you never see this in the tacticians, the boxers, the stylists...because for one, they never had the ability that the punchers possessed, and two, how could they prove it when it's reflexes, focus and speed that goes away first, which is their main arsenal?

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 08 Aug 2007, 19:35

I never said it was a pro fight. I said that all these 'myths' were proven to be exhibtions and nothing more [[or are they?]].

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 08 Aug 2007, 21:06

KOJOE90 wrote:Myth.

"The last thing a Boxer loses is his punch".

What do you think lasts longer than their punching power, mate?

Stamina? Chin? Speed, perhaps?

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 09 Aug 2007, 03:27

hence the [[or are they??]] cus nobody knows for sure.

You could make the argument that Walter Edgerton really did gain a portion of the title from George Dixon (least according to Nat Fleischer), or that Louis had a 26th title defense (there was judges to score the exhibition bout and NYBC had the title up for grabs, which infuriated Louis and he destroyed his opponent faster than anyone he ever fought).

Same thing for Baer, as Mr Oliver wasnt ever brought up for years and years until recently as being this mystery opponent---what is clear, is that Baer had 24 fights that are known to be professional bouts in a span of 4 months....Art Oliver just throws a mone wrench into the whole equation.

It's like how many men said Dempsey was racist and wouldnt fight a black man, but in recent years they found evidence that Dempsey, at least early on, did in fact fight a few black men [[boxrec mentions them in their analysis of dempsey's career]].

I could probably compare the Art Oliver-Max Baer situation as being alot like the alleged Jack Johnson-Jack Dempsey bout...who the hell knows what is true, what is real, was it an exhibition, was it a real bout, was it a farce? There just isnt enough evidence.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 09 Aug 2007, 16:50

What is it that I dont know what I am talking about? Baer did fight 24 times in a span of 4 months, though albiet he fought nothing but bums, and the Art Oliver 'fight' supposedly happened in between that time.

Years ago the Art Oliver fight wasnt even mentioned along the cyberboxingzone list of exhibitions and bouts that Baer had, same with this site, wasnt until the last three or so years that it somehow emerged.