The ATG Light-Heavyweight Tournament

markl · Post by **markl** » 03 Aug 2007, 11:45

Charles tko 13
Conn sd
Loughran by wide dec

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 04 Aug 2007, 12:18

votes thus far:

5-0 Charles over Foster

3-2 Moore over Conn

5-0 Loughran over Lesnevich

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 04 Aug 2007, 20:22

Charles Dec Foster
Moore KO12 Conn
Loughran Dec Lesnevich

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 05 Aug 2007, 16:56

Votes are in:

6-0 Charles over Foster

4-2 Moore over Conn

6-0 Loughran over Lesnevich

This Rounds Match-Ups:

Tommy Loughran vs. Archie Moore

with the winner taking on Ezzard Charles in the final 8)

Cast your votes peoples!

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 05 Aug 2007, 18:35

Moore close decision...

I project the winner of the tournament as being... Ezzard Charles.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 05 Aug 2007, 23:08

My own opinion on this match is a bit more different than I Feel Fine's assumption on a Moore victory...

Tommy Loughran, for all intents and purposes, and it seriously cannot be over stressed, was one of THE greatest tacticians the world has ever known, especially at Light Heavyweight. How can you argue, really, considering this man defeated the likes of:

Jack Sharkey, King Levinsky, Paolino Uzcudon, Johnny Risko, Ernie Schaaf, Max Baer, Jim Braddock, Mickey Walker, Jimmy Slattery, Mike McTigue, Young Stribling, Jimmy Delaney, Georges Carpentier, Harry Greb....and a slew of others, and mind you he fought the majority of these men more than once having quite the success rate against them.

Ironically, Loughran practically defeated the majority of the men who were in this fantasy tournament, with the exception of Gene Tunney who defeated Loughran in a close 6 round decision.

Moore on the other hand fought and defeated such men as:

Joey Maxim, Jimmy Slade, Harold Johnson, Jimmy Bivins, Curtis Sheppard, Holman Williams, Lloyd Marshall; had mixed it up with some rather decent HW's such as Nino Valdes and Bob Baker and even in his later career pulled off 'draws' with Willie Pastrano......but he failed against men as Ezzard Charles and Charley Burley, men who were greater tacticians and faster than himself.

Moore beat a helluva lot of contenders...Loughran beat a helluva lot of former and future champions...

The difference, here, in my opinion is that Moore never quite had the success at HW as did Loughran; Moore might have fought for the title twice, but it was Loughran who proved he could go the limit with the giants (back when it was a rarity) of the day, such as Primo Carnera and fellow giant Ray Impelltiare, as well as beat the best tacticians the HW division could throw at him, as well as its big bangers.

Loughran was such a great tactician that Jack Dempsey used him as a sparring partner to duplicate Gene Tunney...it goes to show that, in the publics minds, as well as the fight game's minds, that Loughran was second to Tunney in the LHW division, if not in skill.

This in my opinion places him all but dead even with Moore, considering the old mongoose was second best to Charley Burley as a MW and was second best to Ezzard Charles as a LHW...but it was Moore's longetivity and accomplishments in all three weight classes, combined with his counter punching skills, that makes him the toughest opponent, arguably, for Loughran.

I see this as being a very scientific match-up, being methodical with just as much ring science as there is raw emotion....both men are being cautious for the first few rounds, trying to figure eachother out, but it is Loughran's defense and jab that is keeping him in the lead...Moore comes out with more pressure and lands some pretty good shots and is catching Loughran more often...Loughran is picking up the pace, going to optimum effectiveness in the latter rounds, but Moore is there too and getting in his shots and getting away from them as well...the last three rounds has turned into a barn stormer, with Moore staring to land some tremendous shots, but most are hitting the arms and top of the head, scoring nothing. Loughran's defense is a sight to behold...

The judges score cards are read, and the winner by split decision by margins of 8-4-3 (Loughran), 9-5-1 (Moore), and 8-4-3 (Loughran)....Loughran!!! The scoring of the fight is questioned, considered controversial as Moore was the aggressor throughout, but nothing can be done, decisions cannot be reversed...

Minotauro · Post by **Minotauro** » 06 Aug 2007, 07:08

Moore SD Loughran 15 probably due to him being the aggressor and scoring a knockdown or two.

Final: Ezzard wins a UD against Moore his speed would be a problem wouldn't be surprised if knocks Moore down as well. I just think Charles has the style to beat him.

markl · Post by **markl** » 06 Aug 2007, 12:57

Moore ud.........and then Ezzard beats him again

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 06 Aug 2007, 16:00

Btw, these contests are 15 round fights, not 12 rounders

I thought I made that clear in the beginning

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 08 Aug 2007, 16:46

votes so far on Moore-Loughran: 3-1 Moore

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 09 Aug 2007, 08:45

Moore Dec Loughran

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 12 Aug 2007, 23:03

4-1 Moore over Loughran 8)

FINAL BOUT OF THE ATG-LHW TOURNAMENT:

Archie Moore vs. Ezzard Charles

15 rounds, mandatory 8 count will be in effect, any count in progess will end at the bell, the three knock down rule has been waved... 8)

Minotauro · Post by **Minotauro** » 15 Aug 2007, 08:42

I mentioned it earlier I think Charles would win he is a bad style match for Moore he is a better boxer and quicker. I see Charles a fairly competitive but clear UD 15 scoring a knockdown as well.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 16 Aug 2007, 17:37

This is a tough fight, I think, on either man. Yes, its true, that Charles was virtually the only 175 pounder Moore couldn't defeat, but both men's ledgers at MW and HW were equally impressive. Moore was tough and was dangerous counter puncher, but Charles was faster and possessed even greater power than Archie Moore.

As much as I like Archie, I can't vote for him. At 175 pounds, he stands no chance against Charles. Had it been a HW fight, I might have leaned more towards the 'Old Mongoose'.

Charles wins via TKO in the 12th round.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 16 Aug 2007, 22:59

The Charles/Moore fights were through the looking glass. They were far more evenly matched than the outcomes would indicate. Moore lost each time so what can you say? Most folks would be compelled by those realities to pick Charles. Or you can see beyond the flukish nature of these harsh realities and say that inevitably Moore would be assured that it could not happen again.

Here are a few supporting facts:

Nino Valdez Beats Ezzard and Loses to Moore
Toxie Hall Beats Ezzard and Loses to Moore
Harold Johnson Beats Ezzard and Loses to Moore

Yet Ezzard beats Moore 3 for 3.......

Ezz beating Moore 3 times is simply a way for the Almighty to prove that ANYTHING can happen. However if they would have fought a fourth fight.....

Moore wins and KO's his lifelong nemesis in 14 and invites fights 5, 6 and 7 at any point along the way, ends up ahead 4 to 3 at the end of a 7 fight series.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 17 Aug 2007, 12:12

Charles would win, I think anyway. Moore probably got better after his losses to Charles, but I would still go with Ezzard.

As for Charles' losses to Valdez and Hall, Charles was getting older, and he won the Hall rematch. To my understanding Charles-Johnson was a controversial decision, and the fight was in Johnson's hometown. The only thing Moore really has over Charles is longevity, so its not unusual that he beat a couple of the fighters who Charles lost to in his declining years. Charles' performances against Marciano were better than Moore's, and I don't see Moore beating Jersey Joe Walcott.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 17 Aug 2007, 14:35

I Feel Fine wrote:Charles would win, I think anyway. Moore probably got better after his losses to Charles, but I would still go with Ezzard.

As for Charles' losses to Valdez and Hall, Charles was getting older, and he won the Hall rematch. To my understanding Charles-Johnson was a controversial decision, and the fight was in Johnson's hometown. The only thing Moore really has over Charles is longevity, so its not unusual that he beat a couple of the fighters who Charles lost to in his declining years. Charles' performances against Marciano were better than Moore's, and I don't see Moore beating Jersey Joe Walcott.

Moore would certainly have beaten JJW. Too bad it did not take place. Of course timing is everything...the Older Archie got the less chance either Ezz or JJW would have had against him.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 17 Aug 2007, 14:51

You really think he would? I dunno. I think I would favor Walcott. I guess its possible. Walcott did lose to Layne and some other fighters. I guess it would have been interesting.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 17 Aug 2007, 17:26

Charles Dec Moore (I'm going out on a limb)

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 17 Aug 2007, 17:59

Moore taking on Jersey Joe?

Dunno how ANYONE could really think Moore could deal with Walcott's innovative manuevers, power, slashing offense, let alone beat him.

If Moore could only go 9 with Marciano, and Walcott go a combined 14 rounds.....and Walcott won 12 of those 14, and Moore was lucky to win 1 against the Rock....

I dont see it.

Maybe he would against the Walcott that Marciano blasted out in a round...

Anways, votes are....

4-1 CHARLES over MOORE

this tournament ends Sunday, so Moore only has the off chance at winning this if some courteous voters give him the nod, an act of God or some sort of miracle, as Moore is one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 17 Aug 2007, 18:06

HomicideHenry wrote:Moore taking on Jersey Joe? Dunno how ANYONE could really think Moore could deal with Walcott's innovative manuevers, power, slashing offense, let alone beat him. If Moore could only go 9 with Marciano, and Walcott go a combined 14 rounds.....and Walcott won 12 of those 14, and Moore was lucky to win 1 against the Rock.... I dont see it.

Maybe he would against the Walcott that Marciano blasted out in a round...

Anways, votes are....

4-1 CHARLES over MOORE this tournament ends Sunday, so Moore only has the off chance at winning this if some courteous voters give him the nod, an act of God or some sort of miracle, as Moore is one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel

Just as Ezz should have both feet in the HW division. OH and as I said "TIMING" would be important. Archie just kept getting better as the others faded.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 18 Aug 2007, 16:55

Votes thus far in the ATG LHW fight are still 4-1 for Charles over Moore.

When I get the time, I'd like to make a digital plaque for the winner and have it posted in the forum as a sticky and show the results of the tournament.