When is Calzaghe going to step up to the plate?

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 16 Aug 2007, 05:39

Great fighters but not as talented or good as Calzaghe. Hatton cherrypicked as well but gets overlooked just for fighting Tszyu.

if he had of fought the best around his weight.

Didn't many of them move to other weight classes?

He's fighting Kessler and fought Lacy who were the best challengers.

J · Post by J » 16 Aug 2007, 05:40

thanks Ben I just cant take to Calzaghe he has been full of shit for a long time, right back to his "Im scared of flying " b.s. then turns up ringside at Oscar V Mosely 2.

how did he get there then swim?
Sorry I just dont like the bloke as fighter he has been living off average fair for a very very long time.

Tho if he beats Kessler I say fair play to the bloke well done, still doesnt make anywhere near the best Brit fighter of all time. Not even close.

J · Post by J » 16 Aug 2007, 05:42

Twisted Transistor wrote:Great fighters but not as talented or good as Calzaghe. Hatton cherrypicked as well but gets overlooked just for fighting Tszyu.

if he had of fought the best around his weight.
Didn't many of them move to other weight classes?

He's fighting Kessler and fought Lacy who were the best challengers.

Are you seriously suggesting Calslappy is more talented than the unified heavyweight champ of the world. What utter shit.

Either way just having talent proves little its what you do with it, Kirkland Laing may have been on of the most talented fighters ever from these shores but anyone mentioning him as an all time great? No.

Hatton just fought castillo and is fighting PBF and no one is honking on about him being the greatest brit fighter of all time.
Also hatton was only protected on his run up to being the champ, and moved up a division to take on Collazo and despite what some say is game for tyhe biggest fights since he has been champ. (PBF being proof) Joe has been champ for 20 defences and to be fair only 3-4 of those have been against challengers who bought any desire and competition for the belt.

Ottke, Larsson, Beyer, Johnson, Jones, Mundine, Hopkins, all fights that could have been made but werent, too many for Joe and his promotional team to be blameless. Just look at his record mate for a supposed dominant champion its a freakin joke.

rasputin · Post by **rasputin** » 16 Aug 2007, 08:00

J wrote:
Twisted Transistor wrote:Great fighters but not as talented or good as Calzaghe. Hatton cherrypicked as well but gets overlooked just for fighting Tszyu.

if he had of fought the best around his weight.
Didn't many of them move to other weight classes?

He's fighting Kessler and fought Lacy who were the best challengers.
Are you seriously suggesting Calslappy is more talented than the unified heavyweight champ of the world. What utter shit.

Either way just having talent proves little its what you do with it, Kirkland Laing may have been on of the most talented fighters ever from these shores but anyone mentioning him as an all time great? No.

Hatton just fought castillo and is fighting PBF and no one is honking on about him being the greatest brit fighter of all time.
Also hatton was only protected on his run up to being the champ, and moved up a division to take on Collazo and despite what some say is game for tyhe biggest fights since he has been champ. (PBF being proof) Joe has been champ for 20 defences and to be fair only 3-4 of those have been against challengers who bought any desire and competition for the belt.

Ottke, Larsson, Beyer, Johnson, Jones, Mundine, Hopkins, all fights that could have been made but werent, too many for Joe and his promotional team to be blameless. Just look at his record mate for a supposed dominant champion its a freakin joke.

i think some of these threads are unbelievable.. of course hatton is becoming an all time brit great..the man is proving it
but on the other hand calling joe "calslappy" and rubbishing what this man has achieved is the utter shite you talk about J
you may not like him and you may think he dodges people but i urge you to just watch the lacy fight one more time and then tell me his "slaps" have no affect on these other world title contenders
calzaghe is a worthy world champion and deep down i think everyone knows it

J · Post by J » 16 Aug 2007, 08:06

no i never said he wasnt a worthy champion dude just not all time great I am also not rubbishing what he has achieved 20 defences is a formidable thing to achieved, however it hasnt been against good enough opposition over the 20 defences. Look at BHop he had 20 defences and eventually he stepped it up against the eleite fighters, Joe is only just doing that. (sorry lacy not elite not for me anyway). Also to suggest that Joe;s record compares to the likes of Lennox or the others is an rubbishing thier record in my opinion.

Here we go full defences:
SOBOT for fecks sake he lost to Cherifi.
FERREYRA seen better days and lost at world level
THORNBERRY not deserved of shot at title.
STARIE Negative came to survive fringe world class only
SHEIKA - decent win but fringe world class loses when he steps up
WOODHALL - One of the few live opponents ok match.
MARIO VEIT - Euro level at best
MCINTYRE - for Fucks sake he fought Goodson
BREWER - Past his best but reasonable challenge that 2 so far.
JIMINEZ - nuff said
PUDWILL - OH DO GO AWAY
MITCHELL - see Brewer- 3 acceptable defences up to now.
MKTCHIAN - Euro level
SALEM - Came to spoil and surivie, boring fight boring fighter
VEIT - AGAIN see above
ASHIRA - HO HO HO
LACY - Great performance by Joe, thats 4 defences that are ok
BIKA - tough but come on after lacy not acceptable
MANFREDO - Never acceptable in any day night or era.

So out of all of that lot you have 4 that could be considered ok matches and defences the rest of them are Im afraid sub standard for a supposed elite fighter.

So the only person who detracts from JC's achievment are the facts and the record itself.

his performance vs lacy was excellent no doubt but is that enough to make him the best from these shores not a friggin chance.

also Lacy got hit so many times if Joe punched correctly he would have knocked him clean out, Joe does slap and cuff sometimes whether you like it or not.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 16 Aug 2007, 08:19

Yes talent wise he's better than Lewis but I don't deny Lewis achieved more.

Calzaghe has proved to be great too not just talented though. Not seen Kirkland.

Castillo was a great win but seems like he was picked at the right time and picked because he had a style that makes Hatton look good. Put him with a slickster and he looks bad and shows his lack of defence with that pressure fighting at times. He will lose to PBF.

Hatton's talked about on this forum enough though and listen to any excuse he gives and overlook him. Callazo figured Hatton out but was too late by the time he did, he showed diving In with constant pressure lacking defence and body punching won't work with someone who will box.

Joe has had lots of terrible challenges but at least we don't sugarcoat that fact like with Hatton.

Wasn't It Hopkins who pulled out a fight with Joe? Seems like It.

Ottke couldn't fight without currupt judging and would of been destroyed like Lacy.

Jone's prefered deciding wheter he'd keep his WBC belt or not then nearly bankrupt them when the WBC kissed his ass robbing Rocchigiani's belt he won.

Mundine was nothing more than the WBA's normal belt holder and would be considered past his best If he got over the eye Infection now probably.

Johnson would of been battered anyway.

Joe's not blameless, far from It , but what about the other fighters? Are they blameless to most here?

rasputin · Post by **rasputin** » 16 Aug 2007, 08:20

J wrote:no i never said he wasnt a worthy champion dude just not all time great.

his performance vs lacy was excellent no doubt but is that enough to make hom the best from these shores not a friggin chance.

also Lacy got hit so many times if Joe punched correctly he would have knocked him clean out, Joe does slap and cuff sometimes whether you like it or not.

with 31 ko s from 42 its a good job the man "cant" punch properly then!!
i can understand people not liking joe J im not overly keen myself but there is no doubting this mans ability and like it or not if he beats kessler he WILL go down as a british great

J · Post by J » 16 Aug 2007, 08:20

see above post ahtton has already defeated better level opposition than Joe and if you recal most on here were going mad post Zoo.

As for being found out by Collazo dont be a twat mate, was Joe foudn out by Salem then when he got dropped?

If you did your research you would know hatton sigend up to go to welter at short notice cos Laczano got injured, by team hattons own admission they didnt move up properly and carried too much weight. I also suggest fighting a rangy southpaw at short notice wasnt ideal but hey ho, hatotn has moved on since then Joe is still fighting people form tv shows. Get real.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 16 Aug 2007, 08:22

Bika wasn't that bad of a defence.

There was no one available at the time and It's rare when big fight, then another big fight happens.

J · Post by J » 16 Aug 2007, 08:23

rasputin wrote:
J wrote:no i never said he wasnt a worthy champion dude just not all time great.

his performance vs lacy was excellent no doubt but is that enough to make hom the best from these shores not a friggin chance.

also Lacy got hit so many times if Joe punched correctly he would have knocked him clean out, Joe does slap and cuff sometimes whether you like it or not.
with 31 ko s from 42 its a good job the man "cant" punch properly then!!
i can understand people not liking joe J im not overly keen myself but there is no doubting this mans ability and like it or not if he beats kessler he WILL go down as a british great

"bika wasnt a bad defence"

no it was exactly what everyone was looking for after his performance agianst Lacy, same for Urango I guess for Hatton.

theres a difference between TKO and a KO joe throws a large volume of punches these days and refs step in rather than his devastating power being the reason for the stoppage.

rasputin · Post by **rasputin** » 16 Aug 2007, 08:26

J wrote:
rasputin wrote:
J wrote:no i never said he wasnt a worthy champion dude just not all time great.

his performance vs lacy was excellent no doubt but is that enough to make hom the best from these shores not a friggin chance.

also Lacy got hit so many times if Joe punched correctly he would have knocked him clean out, Joe does slap and cuff sometimes whether you like it or not.
with 31 ko s from 42 its a good job the man "cant" punch properly then!!
i can understand people not liking joe J im not overly keen myself but there is no doubting this mans ability and like it or not if he beats kessler he WILL go down as a british great
thers a difference between TKO and a KO joe throws a large volume of puches these days and refs step in rathe rthan his devastating power being the reason for the stoppage.

but i think you will find that both stop a fight with the other fighter unable to continue

J · Post by J » 16 Aug 2007, 08:27

that can sometimes be open to debate anyway that wasnt the dicsussion.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 16 Aug 2007, 08:29

J wrote:see above post ahtton has already defeated better level opposition than Joe and if you recal most on here were going mad post Zoo.

As for being found out by Collazo dont be a twat mate, was Joe foudn out by Salem then when he got dropped?

If you did your research you would know hatton sigend up to go to welter at short notice cos Laczano got injured, by team hattons own admission they didnt move up properly and carried too much weight. I also suggest fighting a rangy southpaw at short notice wasnt ideal but hey ho, hatotn has moved on since then Joe is still fighting people form tv shows. Get real.

5 weeks Is hardly short notice when he was already In training but they didn't have an opponent for Hatton until the last 5 weeks of his training.

He didn't need to move up he could of just dehydrated less water. He was In good condition he just got figured out late and Floyd will see that.

Hatton's pressure fighting Is diving In eating shots on the way In, then bodyshots and grabbing with more shots to the body. He can be timed right like Callazo was doing. Good opponent though.

Don't be a twat? Are boxing fans civil or not?

Get real? I don't sugar coat that Joe's had terrible moments or say all his opponents are good.

J · Post by J » 16 Aug 2007, 08:32

apologies for the twat comment no intonation wasnt meant as an insult as such as in stop twatting about, anyway no offence intended.

Id say 5 weeks to move up a divsion for the first time with no warm up and fight a tall rangy soutpaw isnt long no.

you dont ????? he has fought a long string of fringe world class fighters is my point that doesnt make you a great that makes a dissapointment.

SticknMove · Post by **SticknMove** » 16 Aug 2007, 09:08

Not this old chestnut again.

This debate comes up every now and then with Max defending JC’s legacy on the basis of length of title reign and intrinsic talent. Both of course are very impressive.

But a fighter’s true worth in the wider context of boxing will always be judged by the level of his opposition. JC, for whatever reason, has never fought a top established P4P opponent during his long reign. That, for me, is unnacceptable and will always raise a question mark when attempting to put his career into perspective. It is no good saying he was good enough, more talented or that he would have beaten this guy or that guy. The fact is there is nothing on record for posterity.

I am looking forward to the Kessler fight and of course want JC to win big. His long title reign deserves a conclusive legacy affirming outcome.

chief · Post by **chief** » 16 Aug 2007, 09:18

Transistor..

Didn't you admit recently you only started following boxing in 2004??

J · Post by J » 16 Aug 2007, 09:20

chief that doesnt matter mate, he is entitled to his own opinion and stick n move, shit I wish I could have just typed that paragraph instead of waffling on!

chief · Post by **chief** » 16 Aug 2007, 10:17

J wrote:chief that doesnt matter mate, he is entitled to his own opinion and stick n move, shit I wish I could have just typed that paragraph instead of waffling on!

J my point is that whereas you have reached the end of your teather after years of JC shenagins, maybe our mate TT has yet to experience the full extent of such frustrations... Of course, opinions are like @rse holes - eveyones got one...

J · Post by J » 16 Aug 2007, 10:19

fair point mate i guess.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 16 Aug 2007, 11:15

chief wrote:
J wrote:chief that doesnt matter mate, he is entitled to his own opinion and stick n move, shit I wish I could have just typed that paragraph instead of waffling on!
J my point is that whereas you have reached the end of your teather after years of JC shenagins, maybe our mate TT has yet to experience the full extent of such frustrations... Of course, opinions are like @rse holes - eveyones got one...

Throw in the fact that you've bunced out not once but twice for a fight with Johnson, and you have the recipe for the Joe Calzaghe Glee club..

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 16 Aug 2007, 16:44

J wrote:thanks Ben I just cant take to Calzaghe he has been full of shit for a long time, right back to his "Im scared of flying " b.s. then turns up ringside at Oscar V Mosely 2.

how did he get there then swim?
Sorry I just dont like the bloke as fighter he has been living off average fair for a very very long time.

Tho if he beats Kessler I say fair play to the bloke well done, still doesnt make anywhere near the best Brit fighter of all time. Not even close.

Wasn't it Kessler challenging him to a fight THREE YEARS AGO, Calzaghe saying he's scare dof flying & then turned up a fortnight later at Barrera-Morales 3?

I hope Kessler knocks JC into retirement I got bored of this shite a long time ago when he cost me money through his arsole going vs Glen Johnson and thus gave up caring what happened to him and his career. Now I just wanna see him lose. The most overated British world champ of the past 20 years no doubt.

while I don't agree with all that, I do agree the best case scenario is a loss for Calzaghe because this shit will go on forever.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 16 Aug 2007, 16:54

Twisted Transistor wrote:Yes talent wise he's better than Lewis but I don't deny Lewis achieved more.

Calzaghe has proved to be great too not just talented though. Not seen Kirkland.

Castillo was a great win but seems like he was picked at the right time and picked because he had a style that makes Hatton look good. Put him with a slickster and he looks bad and shows his lack of defence with that pressure fighting at times. He will lose to PBF.

Hatton's talked about on this forum enough though and listen to any excuse he gives and overlook him. Callazo figured Hatton out but was too late by the time he did, he showed diving In with constant pressure lacking defence and body punching won't work with someone who will box.

Joe has had lots of terrible challenges but at least we don't sugarcoat that fact like with Hatton.

Wasn't It Hopkins who pulled out a fight with Joe? Seems like It.

Ottke couldn't fight without currupt judging and would of been destroyed like Lacy.

Jone's prefered deciding wheter he'd keep his WBC belt or not then nearly bankrupt them when the WBC kissed his ass robbing Rocchigiani's belt he won.

Mundine was nothing more than the WBA's normal belt holder and would be considered past his best If he got over the eye Infection now probably.

Johnson would of been battered anyway.

Joe's not blameless, far from It , but what about the other fighters? Are they blameless to most here?

the thing is it's always everyone else's fault. when i was a student i was reading a paper on the train about Calzaghe-Mitchell I think it was and while I wasn't a mad boxing fan back then, I knew that that wasn't a real title fight. It was transparent, taking on a decent ex champ type and wasn't a big fight.

Though it's more of a title fight that Hide v Damon Reed it's still typical Warren fare, a tightrope between championship fight and con outright. If you can put a W before a three letter combination you can defend a world title. Calzaghe and Warren always did what they wanted & probably forefeited a place in the hall of fame for taff fecking almighty.

If Joe really wanted the fights he would have gone for them. Now he's fighting someone who's as good as many of the guys he missed out on and has left it too late to be able to win. There are lots of ignorant views on hs career saying he never fought anyone - he has - but still he sold himself short with his valley mentality.