Why Rocky Marciano Could Have Defeated "The Greatest&qu

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 16 Aug 2007, 17:44

The legendary trainer Eddie Futch once said:

"Muhammad Ali was a great performer and great fighter.
But like most great fighters he had a flaw. They do things
a certain way for so long that when you start to take advantage
of that flaw they can't drop the habit. I knew this about Ali.
I watched him in many fights. I knew ou could take advantage of
his weakness and he would never correct it because it was apart
of him. He was not going to stop what he was doing for one fight.

I had been successful his whole career, so why stop? I knew Ali
pulled straight back from his punches. And I know he did not like
to throw uppercuts. When he threw one he had no way to escape the
counter punch. Now, he was so quick that most fighters couldn't
take advantage of it. Ali didn't throw the uppercut often, but when
he did he threw it standing straight up. That left him defenseless.

To entice Ali, I made Joe get lower, to get into a deeper crouch.
That forced Ali to throw the uppercut. Then I told Joe to go over
the top of the uppercut with the left hook."

-Due to Ali's quickness Frazier's team (Durham and Futch) devised a
sound stragety to solely focus on the body, rarely going to the head.

Ali-Frazier: Round by Round Analysis

Rounds 3-4: Frazier dominates, scoring heavily to the body
and manages to even hurt Ali in the 4th with a clean shot to the head.

Rounds 5-8: Frazier is toying with Ali taunting and playing with the
former champion, as much as he's fighting; still dominating Ali.

Round 9: Ali all the way, somehow getting back some hidden reserve

Rounds 10-11: Both men are unfocused and lethargic with fatigue,
practically even rounds.

Round 12: Frazier snaps out of the funk and hurts Ali to the point
that it seems he might not survive the round.

Round 13-14: Both men are trying to land the big punch, though tired
and many clinches in the middle of all this hostility.

Round 15: Frazier near the end of the round drops Ali with the most
famous left hook in HW history; wins unaminous decision over Ali.

[Based on that, it's safe to assume Frazier won at least 10 rounds of the fight]

Based on the Ali-Frazier fight went, round for round, it's safe to assume
that The Brockton Blockbuster in his prime, could have beaten the Ali of
March 8th, 1971. Why?

#1- Marciano crouched lower than Frazier; Marciano could have just as easily dupliacted the strategy team Frazier done---plus would have received less shots back, as this would have made Marciano far more difficult to hit.

#2- Marciano's left hook was one of his greatest weapons, though vastly under rated in comparison to his right hook which was the main KO punch; take a look at the double left hook that knocked Matthews out into unconsciousness, it was almost as good as Frazier's.

#3- Marciano's body attack was extraordinary. Roland LaStarza himself stated that after the second fight he had with Marciano he urinated blood after the fight. Marciano's viscous body attack is one of the ATG ring assaults; even Ali during the filming of the computer fight said "my whole body ached, and ours wasn't even a real fight." Or if that don't suit your fancy, remember how Marciano's body attack made sparring partner Tommy "Hurricane" Jackson hit the canvas and vomit.

#4- Conditioning. The LONGEST Joe Frazier ever trained was 8 weeks, for the Thrilla in Manila. Marciano on the other hand, usually trained 4-6 months for much lesser opponents than Ali. It is therefore possible and logical that he would have trained not only his hardest, but longest [maybe 8-10 months] against "The Greatest".

#5- Though this in part goes back to conditioning, had Marciano got Ali hurt in the 4th, 12th and 15th rounds like Joe done, Rocky certainly would have upped the pace, being all the more aggressive, more punches, etc---Joe was just simply not conditioned enough to have done so, to take that sort of initiative.

#6- Marciano was a faster started than Joe Frazier! If Frazier could not only dictate the pace and had Ali hurt by the 4th round, imagine what Marciano could have done!

#7- Don't worry none about Marciano not being able to cope with Ali's punch rate, Marciano on average threw 80-85 punches a round, and it was not unusual to see him throw over 100, thats a MW pace!

#8- Again, conditioning plays a role, Marciano NEVER tired! In his first fight
with Ezzard Charles, there was only ONE clinch in 15 rounds, a tactic that was forced by Ezzard Charles! If Ali was tired against Frazier, and Frazier tired against Ali, it's possible Marciano wouldn't have been tired against either man.

#9- Power. Marciano's punching prowess was clearly beyond Frazier's and it never dissipated. He hit just as hard as he did in the first as he would in the last; he could lose every single round, bloody beyond repair, and somehow be able to pull the KO out of his ass to win the fight. If Frazier could hurt this version of Ali, drop him for several "no counts" and an official count in the 15th, it's logical to assume Marciano not only could do the same---but more often!

#10- This wasn't the Ali of 1964-1967, and it wouldn't be until 1974 that he would finally avenge his loss to Frazier and regain the HW championship. He also looked lackluster against the likes of Quarry and Bonavena in his "comeback" before the showdown with Frazier (the Bonavena fight was 3 months before the Frazier bout]. He wasn't as fast, though he maintained quite a bit, was still rusty and he certainly wasn't in the condition to fight at a championship level, he took the fight too soon.

#11- No disrespect to Joe Frazier, but if you take away the Ali fights, his greatest wins were over Buster Mathis, Jimmy Ellis, Jerry Quarry, George Chuvalo, Bob Foster and Oscar Bonavena. Is there any doubt that Marciano couldn't beat the same men Frazier did? Compare Mathis and Ellis to Walcott and Charles, Foster to Moore...you can't, not really, considering Walcott and Charles even at that stage of their careers probably could have defeated Ellis and Mathis, Foster was a great LHW but nowhere near Moore's ability and toughness in the HW ranks. Marciano, in essence, would be Frazier's equal, if not superior.

In essence, the Marciano who peaked in 1952-1956, would have defeated the Ali of the March 8th, 1971 "Fight of The Century". Most Ali experts, fans and supporters would say that Marciano couldn't even knock out this version of Ali---and while this bares some truth as Frazier couldn't, Foreman, etc, the reality is all these details combined with the fact that neither man wasn't in top form and condition (Ali/Frazier) and how Frazier played patty fingers through the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th rounds rather than take more initiative---it is NOT out of the relm of possibility that Marciano could have hurt Ali, dropped him enough times that the referee would have seriously considered whether it was really in Ali's best interest to keep taking more.

The flaws against Marciano? Getting cut. If the "washed up" Ali could cut Quarry, the feat could be duplicated again against the Rock. What of his reach? I personally think if Marciano crouched as low as he done, made Ali throw the uppercuts, he still would have connected, as Ali's infighting was just as vulnerable as his inept abilities to get away, to defend the counter after throwing an uppercut.

Besides, Marciano would have hit ANYWHERE he possibly could non-stop, Ali no doubt couldn't stop to think or defend but try to get away and use the jab. PLus, Ali couldn't dance for 15 rounds anymore, those days were gone forever. All he could do is take it and hope to find a way out of his predicament. His own toughness and ability to improvise in even the most difficult of situations helped him edge by many of his later opponents.

How about the rope a dope? It certainly didn't work for Ali against Frazier in the first fight, and the same trick most certainly didn't help Roland LaStarza in the second fight he had with Marciano. Too conditioned, too much power. If Ali continued to stay in that position, he'd eventually get seriously hurt, his arms would break, if not blood vessels burst and the limbs become useless, just like LaStarza.

Prediction?

Ali loses via decision to Rocky Marciano; Marciano seals the victory by not only being the aggressor throughout, but winning 8 rounds to Ali's 6 with 1 round even. Marciano manages to drop Ali twice in the last round, the first a no count, the second a count of 5. Marciano has two deep gashes around his eyes and swollen badly, the fight almost halted in the 14th due to them.

Compare the Ali-Frazier round system scores with Frazier winning at least 10 rounds, the 8-6-1 scores on Marciano-Ali is rather generous, but considering how the Ali fanatics say Marciano was much shorter, slower, shorter reach, etc you have to figure in that Ali would have the advantage in alot of the rounds even at this stage of his career, but factor in all things against him (Ali) listed above, Marciano is still the favorite.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 16 Aug 2007, 18:50

Yes, on March 8th, 1971 Ali could lose to Marciano. On the flip side, if Rocky, or Frazier for that matter, come off a 3 1/2 year layoff to fight an active, in shape Ali; Ali likely wins by TKO.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 16 Aug 2007, 19:04

I agree, but in the same argument, though Ali looked lackluster, he was still good enough to defeat #1 ranked contender Jerry Quarry off the bat and then beat the man Joe Frazier struggled to beat by a KO...

Ali certainly wasn't entirely washed up as many might believe him to be.

What just ticks me off is that virtually every Ali fan says that Marciano would have no chance whatsoever with Ali at almost ANY stage of his career; Marciano would have KO'd the Ali who fought Banks and Cooper for sure. Marciano would have defeated the Ali of 1976 and beyond.

But if someone brings up the Ali of 1964-1967, or the Ali of 1970-1975, Marciano off the bat stands no chance...and while I agree the 1964-1967 Ali more than likely would have cut Rocky, the 1970-1973 Ali was pretty crappy to say the least, outside of his wins against Norton, Bugner and Foster.

SO, really in essence outside of the 1964-1967 'era', Ali really only had 2 peak years in the 1970's [1974 and 1975, Foreman and Frazier 2 & 3] which is where his greatest victories happened.

NOt to really take away anything from Ali, but outside of the 1960's, no other version of Ali is going to definatively beat a prime Marciano with "ease" or even a stones throw---it would be very competitive and in my mind just as exhausting and painful as the Ali-Frazier fights would be, easily, no question about it.

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » 16 Aug 2007, 20:33

Awesome post Homicide

Its actually funny, my old man and I were talking about this just the other day. I was backing Rocky and mentioned a lot of the things you have said. I think it is really his relentless agression and duribility (yes he got cut but he could come back from anything) that would get him over the line against Ali possibly even scoring a KO...

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » 16 Aug 2007, 20:34

I Feel Fine wrote:Yes, on March 8th, 1971 Ali could lose to Marciano. On the flip side, if Rocky, or Frazier for that matter, come off a 3 1/2 year layoff to fight an active, in shape Ali; Ali likely wins by TKO.

Mate I can't see any way, under any circumstances, that Ali could KO Marciano...

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 16 Aug 2007, 20:48

Well "good" is subjective. Stopping Quarry and Bonavena back to back would be pretty good for any fighter. But "good" for other fighters isn't necessarily good for Ali. Ali would likely beat Quarry and Bonavena 10/10. For him its more a question of how does he beat them than it is does he beat them. His timing looked a little off with Quarry, and he looked terrible against Bonavena. So, while for other fighters those wins would be really good, and while they were "good" wins for Ali in one sense, they were not good in terms of how he looked in winning them. In other words, there's a difference between a good win and a good performance. Ali needed to be 100% to fight Frazier, and he was not 100% going into that fight. He had only been back in boxing for five months, and he had to rush the fight because he had a court date that summer and might have gone to prison, hence he had to get the fight in before that time.

Still, Ali was hardly "crappy" from 70-73. I would say 1973 was his only shaky year in that time. But, as you say, rust or not he succeded in beating Quarry and Bonavena in 70, and he was able to participate in one of the greatest fights of all time with Frazier for 15 rounds, despite that rust, in 71. He was good enough to be named "Fighter of the Year" in 1972. And I think thats important; if Ali had waited until 72, or maybe even late 71, his chances of beating Frazier would have increased.

Anyway, I would say 64-67, late 71/72-75 Ali would be the clear favorite over a prime Marciano. Before and after those years years a prime Marciano would be the favorite, but what does that really say? Ali in his prime would also be the clear favorite over a 20 year old Marciano or a 35 year old Marciano, if you want to look at it that way. Prime for prime is more important than how fighter A in his prime does against fighter B before or after his prime, or with rust. Prime vs. prime Ali would be the favorite against Rocky.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 16 Aug 2007, 20:49

Marlin wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:Yes, on March 8th, 1971 Ali could lose to Marciano. On the flip side, if Rocky, or Frazier for that matter, come off a 3 1/2 year layoff to fight an active, in shape Ali; Ali likely wins by TKO.
Mate I can't see any way, under any circumstances, that Ali could KO Marciano...

I don't see any way, under any circumstances how Robinson could lose to Ralf "Tiger" Jones... and he was coming off a 2 1/2 year layoff. So that's not really good reasoning, no one has ever seen how Rocky would respond to something like that.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 16 Aug 2007, 22:10

I Feel Fine wrote:Yes, on March 8th, 1971 Ali could lose to Marciano. On the flip side, if Rocky, or Frazier for that matter, come off a 3 1/2 year layoff to fight an active, in shape Ali; Ali likely wins by TKO.

On March 8th, 1971.. Marciano was a corpse.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 16 Aug 2007, 22:49

JCS wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:Yes, on March 8th, 1971 Ali could lose to Marciano. On the flip side, if Rocky, or Frazier for that matter, come off a 3 1/2 year layoff to fight an active, in shape Ali; Ali likely wins by TKO.
On March 8th, 1971.. Marciano was a corpse.

virtually guaranteeing Ali a victory.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 16 Aug 2007, 22:54

JCS wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:Yes, on March 8th, 1971 Ali could lose to Marciano. On the flip side, if Rocky, or Frazier for that matter, come off a 3 1/2 year layoff to fight an active, in shape Ali; Ali likely wins by TKO.
On March 8th, 1971.. Marciano was a corpse.

I'll relay that to homicide henry...

BoxBuzz wrote:virtually guaranteeing Ali a victory.

Not necessarily, we are talking Marciano here....

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 16 Aug 2007, 23:08

I can see the logic in your comment Feel, I really can, but even in a prime vs prime contest Marciano would have been alot more difficult for Ali than Chuvalo, Patterson, Williams, Terrell, Cooper, London and Mildenberger was during Ali's prime.

Now I aint saying Marciano would win, but it would be a fierce, competitive fight, but Ali's slashing offense (mainly his hand speed) would have eventually cut Marciano to bits---but then again, you have to take into consideration, Ali never fought a man similar in style with that kind of power (or near that power) or ferocity up until he fought Frazier; there's alot of intangibles to consider. But I think Rocky would either be stopped by a TKO late or lose a close decision against a prime Ali.

As far as you saying my logic that Marciano beating the Ali of 1976 and beyond is all but worthless, take into consideration that Ali, even at that stage, was good enough to beat Norton (who was still in his prime) and weather the storm against Shavers, but I think Marciano would have possibly, if not more than likely, knocked Ali out in this span of time, let alone definatively beat him.

And, concerning the 2 1/2 year lay off proposition...I can really only go to the Ingemar Johansson "come back" that never happened. Marciano by that time hadn't been in a ring in 5 years, but if you ask alot of historians and writers, alot of them still would have picked Marciano to win that fight, and Ingemar was at his peak, though admittingly by a late KO after taking a good beating from the Swede in the early going.

Marciano's training habits were so tremendous, I think had he been off the same amount of time as Ali, and did some heavy duty quality sparring, he would have [looking at it from Marciano's time] come back and have defeated Floyd Patterson, whom he was offered to fight in real life.

But hypothetically, had Marciano come back to fight Ali, like Ali done to fight Frazier....its harder to make the case for Rocky, yes. But I personally think, Marciano would be game as hell and be in the fight for all he was worth, just like Ali did against Frazier.

And I agree, had Ali waited, his chances against Frazier would have been greater. Even Pacheco and Dundee will say that to this day, that Ali took the fight too soon, that there was really no hurry.

And, I agree to disagree, at least on the "1970-1973" period....Ali might have won the "Fighter of the Year" in 1972, but outside of beating on faded Patterson, human punching bag Chuvalo, Quarry...he lost to Norton, managed to beat Norton, won a decision over Bugner and beat up on Foster who managed to cut Ali and was outweighed by 40 pounds, and who previously lost by KO to Frazier in two rounds.

Bugner, in my mind, was no world beater and nothing truly significant, and Foster, well, what did it really prove except that Foster in no way shape or form belonged in the division.....the Norton win really, was the only, real significant thing that Ali accomplished.

Unless you want to count wins over Jurgen Blin, Mac Foster, Al Lewis and Ruddi Lubbers as being what made him "great" during that time.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 16 Aug 2007, 23:10

Btw lol i said this was a PRIME Marciano vs the Ali of 1971

not the 3yr corpse of Marciano who hadn't boxed a real match since 1956

Nice joke people

lol

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » 16 Aug 2007, 23:17

I Feel Fine wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:virtually guaranteeing Ali a victory.
Not necessarily, we are talking Marciano here....

I did say he could come back from anything...

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 16 Aug 2007, 23:31

HomicideHenry wrote:I can see the logic in your comment Feel, I really can, but even in a prime vs prime contest Marciano would have been alot more difficult for Ali than Chuvalo, Patterson, Williams, Terrell, Cooper, London and Mildenberger was during Ali's prime.

Right, but Ali would also be more difficult than Walcott or old Louis or Moore, etc.

HomicideHenry wrote:Now I aint saying Marciano would win, but it would be a fierce, competitive fight, but Ali's slashing offense (mainly his hand speed) would have eventually cut Marciano to bits---but then again, you have to take into consideration, Ali never fought a man similar in style with that kind of power (or near that power) or ferocity up until he fought Frazier; there's alot of intangibles to consider. But I think Rocky would either be stopped by a TKO late or lose a close decision against a prime Ali.

I don't disagree, I think if they fought 10 times all 10 fights would be difficult.

HomicideHenry wrote:As far as you saying my logic that Marciano beating the Ali of 1976 and beyond is all but worthless, take into consideration that Ali, even at that stage, was good enough to beat Norton (who was still in his prime) and weather the storm against Shavers, but I think Marciano would have possibly, if not more than likely, knocked Ali out in this span of time, let alone definatively beat him.

I didn't say that. I was agreeing that a prime Marciano would be the favorite against Ali post 75.

HomicideHenry wrote:And, concerning the 2 1/2 year lay off proposition...I can really only go to the Ingemar Johansson "come back" that never happened. Marciano by that time hadn't been in a ring in 5 years, but if you ask alot of historians and writers, alot of them still would have picked Marciano to win that fight, and Ingemar was at his peak, though admittingly by a late KO after taking a good beating from the Swede in the early going.

I can see the logic in Marciano coming back and beating Johannson, but we're talking about Ali.

HomicideHenry wrote:But hypothetically, had Marciano come back to fight Ali, like Ali done to fight Frazier....its harder to make the case for Rocky, yes. But I personally think, Marciano would be game as hell and be in the fight for all he was worth, just like Ali did against Frazier.

I don't disagree.

HomicideHenry wrote:And I agree, had Ali waited, his chances against Frazier would have been greater. Even Pacheco and Dundee will say that to this day, that Ali took the fight too soon, that there was really no hurry.

I agree, though again there was a hurry because he had to take the fight before his Supreme Court date. To my knowledge that's the reason why he took the fight so soon, he had only been back for five months.

HomicideHenry wrote:And, I agree to disagree, at least on the "1970-1973" period....Ali might have won the "Fighter of the Year" in 1972, but outside of beating on faded Patterson, human punching bag Chuvalo, Quarry...he lost to Norton, managed to beat Norton, won a decision over Bugner and beat up on Foster who managed to cut Ali and was outweighed by 40 pounds, and who previously lost by KO to Frazier in two rounds.

Bugner, in my mind, was no world beater and nothing truly significant, and Foster, well, what did it really prove except that Foster in no way shape or form belonged in the division.....the Norton win really, was the only, real significant thing that Ali accomplished.

Unless you want to count wins over Jurgen Blin, Mac Foster, Al Lewis and Ruddi Lubbers as being what made him "great" during that time.

I don't see how you can scoff at Ali's resume in those years. He beat Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Chuvalo, Foster, Bugner, Norton... that's a very good list of opponents. Outside of his win over Ali, those were Frazier's best opponents.. not including Norton of course, who Joe never fought. I won't include Mathis in that, he had no place in the ring on that day. Even Patterson, though, was still going strong, and was coming off his own win over Bonavena. He was old, and it was his last fight, but how many of Rocky's best opponents were around that age? So its hardly "crappy", I think a lot of Heavyweights wouldn't mind wins over that level of opposition.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 16 Aug 2007, 23:48

Ain't so much scoffing, but the fact is, Marciano would have defeated those very same men if it was possible for him to have fought them...like I said earlier, you can't really compare Ellis and Mathis to Walcott and Charles and you can't really compare Foster to Moore...Marciano would have stopped Foster inside of two rounds, and would have stopped the likes of Ellis and Mathis inside of 10 or 12 rounds.

Chuvalo and Patterson? I can't see it. Even Ali said during the "Patterson-Chuvalo" fight that Marciano would have KO'd both Patterson and Chuvalo on the same night.

Bonavena? If Bonavena could give Frazier some hell twice, he might do it to Marciano too...but I cant see him beating the Rock.

Norton? Was well conditioned, had power and good skills...but when Norton really had pressure on him...he shut down quicker than the stock market on Black Wednesday. I dont know if he could have faced a pressure fighter like Marciano and have lasted. Plus, I think Norton would have been too willing to have traded punches...and that's a no-no against Marciano. I think had Frazier and Norton really did meet up, Frazier would have took it to him.

Jerry Quarry? Too wild, too aggressive and too brave for his own damned good in this scenario...Marciano KO and early. The Mac Foster's, Blin's, Lewis's, Lubbers', Bugner's....I sense a similar fate...all would have lost to Marciano.

Sure it's a good resume, but not one Marciano himself couldn't duplicate.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 16 Aug 2007, 23:54

I never suggested Marciano couldn't have beaten them, that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about the quality of those opponents, and that's a good list of opponents. They were hardly "crappy". Ali would have beaten Marciano's opponents, I wouldn't use that word to describe them.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 17 Aug 2007, 00:10

...much ado about nothing....mismatch...ali wins going away..leaves ring unmarked.....marciano needs blood tranfusion.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 17 Aug 2007, 00:35

I dont believe I ever used the word crappy....Blin, Mac Foster, Lubbers, Lewis and Bob Foster absoloutely had NO business in there with Ali....Chuvalo, Quarry, Bonavena, Patterson, Mathis, Ellis, Bugner and Norton yes did rightfully deserve a place in there.

But honestly, if Quarry couldnt beat the Ali who just came back after 3yrs, who really gave a real genuine chance to Quarry in a rematch when Ali just had a few more tune ups? Also throw into account how Quarry, after this rematch with Ali would lose to Frazier, Norton and THE last two "significant" wins in his career would be against 19-0 Ron Lyle and against Earnie Shavers who by that time only had one fight against a man of any credibility in Jimmy Ellis, despite having over 45 fights and how Ellis would go 2-4-1 after "The Acorn".

Same for Chuvalo, he was much older this time, and hadn't really had a significant victory since 1969 against Jerry Quarry. Not unless you want to count a win over the ancient and completely washed up Cleveland Williams earlier in 1971....plus this time around it was 12 rounds. Who really was going to say Chuvalo had a chance whatsoever? Plus throw into account that AFTER this fight with Ali Chuvalo would never again compete on a contender level.

Mathis? Let's see here...he retired the following YEAR after losing to Ali and hadn't had a significant win since 1969 over Chuvalo, and before Ali had lost to Jerry Quarry and it been 4 years since he had his "big moment" against Joe Frazier.

Patterson? Sure he was robbed against Ellis in 1968, but this was 1972 and Patterson hadn't been champion since 1962 and before that 1960, having originally gained it in 1956! For crying out loud, Ali wasnt fighting THE Floyd Patterson, he was fighting FATHER TIME himself!

Ellis? Hard to say, considering this man would win a few great fights, then lose when he wasn't supposed to, then somehow manage to come back. But after losing to Ali by TKO in the 12th, he went 10-5-1 before finally retiring in 1975...arguably the greatest of those 10 wins was against Memphis Al Jones ffs! If that isn't enough, throw in the robbery over Patterson, and his loss to Joe Frazier by KO in the 5th back in 1970, in short the man didn't have a significant win unless you went back to his win over Chuvalo earlier in 1971 whose best years were behind him.

Norton? He's a solid one. No question about it. He broke Ali's jaw the first time around winning an easy 12 round decision. And then, of course, Ali won a decision back from him in an immediate rematch that was close. But wait, who did Ken Norton beat who was of ANY significance before beating the great and almighty Ali? Nobody, not really, unless Henry Clark and Chuck Leslie are great opponents.

Bugner? Let's see...his claim to fame? Beating up Henry Cooper over 15 rounds. Sad, considering Cooper been a professional since the early 1950's and his one sided win over Cooper occured in 1971 and yet he couldn't score a TKO over a man whose skin was as fragile as paper. And he defeated Rudi Lubbers, Tony Doyle, Jurgen Blin, Brian London and Charlie Polite....more or less a standard European champion.

Overall....Ali gets a B- in my book, considering most of these men were either in the twilight of their careers, under-sized (in Bob Fosters case), on a European level or simply was nearing that stage they called the bell curve, when the inevitable downhill fall was upon them.

Generous grade, in my opinion.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 17 Aug 2007, 02:33

This is silly. Whenever we hear about Marciano's opponents the excuse is usually that he fought the best fighters who were around and that he should therefore get credit for that. Fair enough. Yet now this rule no longer applies because its Ali and not Marciano. Ali fought every name in the division within those years, and they were hardly bad opponents. How many of Rocky's opponents were past the age of 36, were Light Heavyweights, were coming off losses. Furthermore Ali had to fight those guys in order to set up a rematch with Frazier, so that's what he did. You're going to say that Matthews and LaStarza were good opponents for Marciano yet turn around and nitpick about Quarry and Ellis and Norton. Come on. Those were hardly "crappy" years for Ali... and yes, you did use that term. Ali's opposition in those years was better than any of the fighters Holmes or Tyson beat in their title reigns. And dwelling on the fact that Foster was a Light Heavyweight and that Patterson was too old is kind of rich; what top opponents is Marciano known for outside of old fighters and Light Heavyweights? I'm sure Walcott and Louis would have beaten on that version of Patterson, and Moore and Charles as Heavyweights were much better than Foster as a Heavyweight. But those were barely tune up fights for Ali, Walcott and Louis, Moore and Charles were Marciano's elite opposition. Marciano's resume rests on those kinds of wins, Ali's doesn't. I'm sensing a double standard there.

There's really no reason why I should be having to defend Ali's resume in those years. He cleaned out the division in those years, and against some respected fighters. These were some of the best contenders in Heavyweight history. Ali's opposition from 70-73 was very solid, and they weren't even his best opponents. It was perfectly fine for Frazier to fight these guys, but not Ali? It seems that if Ali isn't fighting a Hall of Famer every time he's doing something wrong. Every great champion will build himself on fighting top contenders and other champions. Ali's best wins were his victories over Liston, Frazier and Foreman, but he also had wins over a lot of the great contenders in Heavyweight history, and he beat many of them in the period of 70-73. If we're going to nitpick about opponents there's a long list of Rocky's opponents we can start with.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 17 Aug 2007, 03:54

I agree with you, but, all I was really expressing was the fact that all these men that Ali did beat during that period of time weren't exactly in their element either, yet people want to say that he beat the best available and like it really means something----Marciano beat the best available too, but it gets wiped off as being "old men and light heavyweights".

In the post I made, you have to consider that Norton despite his record was still green as he only fought one real contender; Quarry's best days were essentially done, as was Chuvalo's, Patterson's, Ellis's, and Mathis. Then throw in a European boxing champion and a glass jawed former LHW champion who had no business at HW.....as well as 'gimme' fights with Blin, Mac Foster, Al Lewis and Ruddi Lubbers.

Yes Ali beat the "best" who was available during that time, but Marciano could have beaten the same men Ali did in that time; as would Ali defeat the men Rocky fought, and you could make the argument that some of Rocky's opponents could have beaten Ali's and so forth.

The point is...was they really great victories considering all the factors?

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 17 Aug 2007, 09:36

[quote="HomicideHenry"]1970-1973 Ali was pretty crappy to say the least,

Later, you say "I don't believe I ever used the word crappy"

Do you even read your own writing?

I thought after the numerous anti-Ali threads that you started earlier this year, that you were done with this, but I guess not.

Yes, you can spin it that some of Ali's opponents weren't that great.
However you can't have it both ways.
Beating Bob Foster (one of the greatest lightheavyweight champions ever) is no big win for Ali. However, Marciano knocking out lightheavyweight contender Harry Mathews is supposed to be a big deal?

If you want to, you can spin it that Marciano opponents weren't that good.

-Charles lost 5 times in the 3 years before he fought Marciano and was clearly on the downside of his career. Yet he gave Marciano a very tough 15 round fight.

-Walcott was ancient and was ahead of Marciano until the knockout in the 13th round.
-Many people thought La Starza deserved the decison in his first fight with Marciano. He gave Marciano a lot of trouble in the rematch. La Starza was nothing special and wasn't as good as many of Ali's opponents.

-Ted Lowry had a career record under .500, yet most people thought he won the first fight with Marciano and their rematch was pretty close.

Yes Marciano would be the favorite against Patterson,Chuvalo,Quarry,Bonavena, Norton etc. however, if Marciano had to fight all of those guys he would have been upset a couple of times a long the line.

Btw, even though Ali was clearly not at his best in the first Frazier fight, it was competitive. Most people have Frazier winning something like 9 rounds to 6. Of course you once said that Foreman won every round against Ali until the fight ended in the 8th round so I am not surprised by some of your comments.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 17 Aug 2007, 10:32

Yes, to me they were "great", if you put it into context. Every champion is going to have to fight guys who aren't champions, at some point he has to fight guys who are only contenders and who will never be anything more than contenders. Marciano had to fight the LaStarza's and the Savold's and the Layne's and the Matthews' to get to a title shot. And as champion he had to fight a LaStarza and a Cockell inbetween fights with fellow champions. That stands for any champion, sometimes a Hagler has to fight a Hamsho or a Roldan or a Louis has to fight a Farr or a Nova or a Galento. That's just how boxing works. For Marciano, his record rests on his wins over Louis and Walcott and Charles and Moore. The other wins add to that and in fact helped him get to those bigger fights. There is no Marciano-Walcott if Marciano loses to Matthews and there is no Marciano-Charles if Marciano loses the LaStarza rematch.

I would say for Ali he had first rate opponents in both those categories, first rate champions and first rate contenders. In terms of the champions he beat, he beat Liston, Foreman and Frazier who are generally top 10 all time Heavyweights, and he also had his wins over Patterson, younger and older, and I guess Norton might be considered a champion. Ali's record rests on that, that's the major part of Ali's legacy. But like any champion he also had to fight contenders, there's no way around that, and Ali especially was very active, like Louis he would fight 4-5 fights a year; he fought 6 times in 1972. So obviously for the most part he's going to have to fight contenders, since there are only so many champions to go around.

Now, obviously Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena and Joe Bugner and and Jimmy Ellis don't look great compared to Walcott and Charles, and even the older Louis and Archie Moore. If you put those guys up against each other, Marciano's list would probably win a majority of the fights, maybe close to all of them. But that's not what we're saying here. We aren't comparing Ellis, Quarry, etc. to Marciano's champion opponents. We're comparing them to the contenders he fought. And I would say that Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Bugner and Chuvalo more than stand up against Layne and Savold and LaStarza. They might not necessarily be worlds better, but I think they're better, and those are only some of the contenders Ali fought, he also had the Terrell's and Folley's in earlier years and Lyle and Shavers in later fights.

And they were also important because they got Ali to his rematch with Frazier and his fight with Foreman, just as Marciano's wins over the better contenders he fought got him his best fights. Ali's opponents from late 71-73 were all meant to get him a rematch with Frazier, he wanted to clean out the division and leave Frazier no other option but a rematch. So I don't see what else Ali was expected to do in those years other than what he did, and I don't think he got his "Fighter of the Year" award for nothing in 72, either.

Anyway, this post is probably already too long, but I'm not quite sure how to phrase this in a shorter post, I hope you get the idea of what I'm saying. There's a difference between champion-level opposition and contender-level opposition, and I would say Ali had "great" opponents relative to both categories. It sort of goes to what I was saying earlier about words like "good" or "great" being subjective. Quarry is not "great" compared to a champion like Ali or Marciano or Walcott or Frazier, but he is "great" compared to other contenders, and he might have become a champion if he had fought in other era's. That's what I mean when I say the contenders that Ali fought were "great".

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 17 Aug 2007, 11:09

I agree with Alp and that's why I maintain that Marciano is the most overrated heavyweight of all time. The legions of Rocky fans have taken a tough, well conditioned, exciting, hard hitting cruiserweight and carried his exploits to the point of ridiculousness. It reminds me of the skit SNL used to have with the Superfans talking about Mike Ditka. They'd go on a tirade about how great the Jordan Bulls were and then pose the question "Da Bulls vs Ditka, who wins ?" to which they answer in unison "Da Coach". It hasen't gotten that silly yet, but when I hear guys go on about how once Marciano lands the Suzie Q, it's over, doesn't matter who you are. Yep Rocky would destroy Ike, Tua and Vitali with the Suzie Q, but he couldn't KO a faded Ezzard Charles in 15 with it.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 17 Aug 2007, 13:36

I love the scene in Barber Shop where Cedrick the Entertainer takes off on his Marciano Rant. Always gives me a chuckle....Marciano was good AND lucky. Both JJW and Archie had him down....but he bounced back up and did what he had to do. I think he was good... Nevertheless I think he was also overated, and I think he would be both an Ali and Louis Victim prime for prime.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 17 Aug 2007, 14:47

lol buzz... I haven't seen Barber Shop, but there's a scene in Coming to America which is pretty funny where they talk about boxing and Marciano...

Anyway, I agree Marciano is overrated. He is a great fighter, but many of his fans overrate him. I would say Tyson is more overrated, though.