Boxrec Hall of Fame Results! (August 2007)

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 15 Aug 2007, 14:58

The results are in!
The following have now been elected into the BoxRec Hall of Fame:

Abe Attell
Wilfred Benitez
Billy Conn
Wilfred Gomez
Sonny Liston
Terry McGovern
Ike Williams

10 votes were cast. 7 votes were required for election.
Attell,Benitez,Conn,Gomez,Liston,McGovern, and Williams each received 7 votes.

Thanks to: Seamus,Ezzard,Minotuaro,Borinken25,sockdolager,HomicideHenry,JA Hamilton,Boxscribe, and Mattyp for voting.
It was a lot of fun.

The rest of the voting was as follows:
6 votes
Kid Chocolate (One vote short for the third time in a row)
Carlos Ortiz
Carlos Zarate
Charley Burley
Tommy Loughran

5 votes
George Dixon
Kid Gavilan
Jimmy McClarnin
Rueben Olivares
Dick Tiger
Jake La Motta

4 votes
Panama al Brown
Michael Spinks
John L. Sullivan
Marcel Cerdan
Carmen Basilio
Niccolino Locche
Floyd Patterson
Barbadoes Joe Walcott

3 votes
Gene Fullmer
Harold Johnson
Packy McFarland
Aaron Pryor
Antonio Cervantes
Khaosai Galaxy
Jersey Joe Walcott
Holman Williams
Peter Jackson

2 votes
Fighting Harada
Les Darcy
Jim Driscoll
Tommy Gibbons
Kid McCoy
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Pascual Perez
Tommy Ryan
Pancho Villa
Tiger Flowers
Mike McCallum
Eusebio Pedroza
Jose Torres
James J. Corbett
Jem Mace
Tony Zale

1 Vote
Johnny Kilbane
Vincente Saldivar
Jimmy Barry
Mike Gibbons
John Henry Lewis
Jack Britton
Ted Kid Lewis
Carlos DeLeon
Cocoa Kid
Esteban DeJesus
Luis Rodriguez
Pedro Montanez
Fritzie Zivic
Tommy Burns
James Figg
Joey Giardello
George Godfrey
Professor Mike Donovan
Jeff Fenech
Beau Jack
Manuel Ortiz
Battling Nelson
Lazlo Papp
Wille Pastrano
Ad Wolgast

78 different fighters received at least 1 vote.
For a complete look at the Members of the Boxrec Hall of Fame, go to p. 2 of the Hall of Fame sticky.

Minotauro · Post by **Minotauro** » 15 Aug 2007, 15:13

The Barbados Demon didn't make it that sucks although the boxers that made it deserve to be there.

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 15 Aug 2007, 16:22

Not bad elections, but I feel that Carlos Ortiz and Carmen Basilio shoud've gotten more votes.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 15 Aug 2007, 16:42

Sonny Liston get's elected while Panama Al Brown, Kid McCoy, Packey McFarland and Tommy Ryan (just to name a few) don't. Pardon me while hurl.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 15 Aug 2007, 16:57

Seamus wrote:Sonny Liston get's elected while Panama Al Brown, Kid McCoy, Packey McFarland and Tommy Ryan (just to name a few) don't. Pardon me while hurl.

You think that's bad?

What about Bert Gilroy?

The conspiracy to deny Bert his rightful place as the best British fighter of all time continues.

:(

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 15 Aug 2007, 17:12

I don't think the Gilroy guy posts anymore.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 16 Aug 2007, 15:02

Minotauro- Why do think that Barbadoes Joe Walcott should get in?

Borinken25-Why do you think Carlos Ortiz and Carmen Basilio should get in?

Seamus-Why do think Panama Al Brown, Kid McCoy, Tommy Ryan, and Packey McFarland should get in?

I agree with some of these choices, but am skeptical of others. I'm sure other feel the same way. Don't just who should be in, say why.

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 16 Aug 2007, 16:54

Ambling Alp wrote:
Borinken25-Why do you think Carlos Ortiz and Carmen Basilio should get in?

I agree with some of these choices, but am skeptical of others. I'm sure other feel the same way. Don't just who should be in, say why.

Let’s see.

Carlos Ortiz

WBA and WBC champion.
Opposition- Wins over Duilio Loi, Flash Elorde, Ismael Laguna, and Sugar Ramos. All of them the best fighters of the era and all of them in the HOF.
Draw against Nicolino Locche in Argentina also in the HOF.

Fought the best and dominated the lightweight division for about 5 years in an era full of great fighters in his division. You can’t ask for more. Ortiz is very underrated by many and he does not get the recognition that he deserves imo.

Carmen Basilio.

What can you say about him that is not already known? Great and I mean great warrior and according to the IBHOF the most popular fighter of his era. Not just his popularity, but he has wins against, Ike Williams, Billy Graham, and Sugar Ray Robinson. Sorry probably I’m a bias but Basilio was a great fighter and deserves recognition for that. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 17 Aug 2007, 12:26

I agree with you about Ortiz. He won several big fights and seldom lost. I have been voting for him myself.

Basilio was a great fighter, but I think there are several fighters that haven't been voted in yet who were better.
I don't consider his win over Ike Williams to have been that big of a deal. Williams was past it and had lost 4 of his last 6 fights.

He did beat a past his prime but still great Robinsion and deserves credit for that as well as for beating Graham. However, after that the quality of wins really drops off; though he deserves some credit for giving Gavilan a close fight. He also had a lot of losses to ordinary fighters.

I don't see why Basilio should get in before Fullmer.
Their fights with Robinson pretty much cancel each other out.
Fullmer's list of other wins is at least as impressive as Basilio's:

Basilio beat Graham ,DeMarco,Saxton,Jordan.
Fullmer beat Pender,Webb,Castellani,Paret,Humez.

Too often Basilo lost to several fighters that he shouldn't have:
Virgo,Cesario,Cardell, Giosa,Felton.
The only "bad" loss that Fullmer had was to Boyd.

Of course Fullmer won both of the head to battles with Basilio.

Basilio was a great fighter and was fun to watch. However, only 41 guys have made it so far. That's not really that many considering we are picking from all weight classes over a period of more than 100 years. There are still more deserving fighters who had overall more impressive careers than Basilio.

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 17 Aug 2007, 13:09

With Basilio I agree with your assessment. It’s just that I admire his heart and how he gave it all in the ring. He gave us some of the most memorable fights in boxing history.

I don’t want to offend anybody, but I think is insane to have Sonny Liston voted in and not Carlos Ortiz.

Minotauro · Post by **Minotauro** » 18 Aug 2007, 10:36

Ambling Alp wrote:Minotauro- Why do think that Barbadoes Joe Walcott should get in?

Borinken25-Why do you think Carlos Ortiz and Carmen Basilio should get in?

Seamus-Why do think Panama Al Brown, Kid McCoy, Tommy Ryan, and Packey McFarland should get in?

I agree with some of these choices, but am skeptical of others. I'm sure other feel the same way. Don't just who should be in, say why.

Barbados Joe Walcott is a true legend in the sport he stood barely over 5 foot 1 and yet he fought fighters from lightweight to heavyweight. He fought Dan Creedon, Joe Choynski (who KO'd Jack Johnson), Jack Bonner, Tommy West, Billy Stift, Frank Childs, Dixie Kid, George Cole, Sam Langford, Billy Smith, Kid Carter, George Gardner, "Philadelphia" Jack O'Brien, Sandy Ferguson, George "Kid" Lavigne, Young Peter Jackson Joe Gans and Black Bill.

That is an amazing list of fighters and to think he won most of those fights he even challenged Jim Jeffries but Jeffries declined. Nat Fleischer regarded him as the greatest welterweight ever and Jersey Joe Walcott ranked him alongside Ray Robinson as the greatest p4p fighter. He belongs with the best p4p ranking and is one of the hardest hitting welterweights ever. He belongs in the hall of fame.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 19 Aug 2007, 11:44

I totally agree that Walcott's really had a lot of impressive results against high level competition.

The main working against him is that he had a lot of losses to ordinary fighters (some allegedly thrown) which makes his career difficult to evaluate.

There were some guys that I have been voting for that seem to be more worthy. However, there are now 41 guys that have been voted in, and there are some openings. Walcott is now on my short list of fighters that I haven't voted for previously that I am considering voting for next time.

I hope that at least he is on everyone's radar next time.

Minotauro · Post by **Minotauro** » 19 Aug 2007, 14:39

Most of Walcott's loses came at the end of his career after he fought Gans he shot himself in his right hand it never truly recovered which effected him badly due to that being his main weapon. 15 of his 32 loses came after this point in his career plus he had been through many war with a lot of light heavys and heavys. His record before he injured himself was 91-17-18 and considering many of his loses are meant to be works that is an amazing record.

It’s like Trinidad having a damaged left hand it would seriously affect him due to the power he relies on. I hope more people vote for Walcott next time he really is an all time great.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 20 Aug 2007, 16:38

Just a few thoughts:
So far, the fighters that have been elected have been worthy. There has been for the most part a good representation regarding eras and weight classes.
(I was a little concerned when the the Boxrec Hall of Fame started that heavyweights would be way over represented but that hasn't really been the case.)

The main exception is that there has only been one bantamweight (Eder Jofre) and one Flyweight (Jimmy Wilde) chosen so far. Both were selected in the 2nd round and no one else in these weight classes since.

It would like great if in future ballots that if the really great bantamweights and flyweights like Fighting Harada,Carlos Zarate,Rueben Olivares,Panama Al Brown, Manuel Ortiz, George Dixon,Pascual Perez, and Miguel Canto get voted in before mid-level heavyweight champions. ie Sharkey,Schmeling,Baer,Walcott, Patterson etc. or mid-level champions in other weight classes for that matter.

I believe that 33 of the 41 fighters (80%) voted in are Americans. Does that seem fair?

That seems a little too high, (even with the American's domination to the sport) and the problem overlaps with the problem of not enough smaller fighter voted in yet, who are often not Americans.

Does anyone have any thoughts on why the Boxrec Hall of Fame doesn't get more attention? After all, we are talking about opinions of the greatest fighters of all weight classes over 100 years. It seems a lot more interesting than most of the other threads. How many Tyson or Marciano threads do we need?
Or is great the way it is? Most of the comments about the Hall of Fame are more insightful than what is on many of the of the other threads.

Anyway, I would welcome peoples' thoughts about the voting so far in the first 6 elections.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 20 Aug 2007, 16:49

Ambling Alp wrote: Does anyone have any thoughts on why the Boxrec Hall of Fame doesn't get more attention? After all, we are talking about opinions of the greatest fighters of all weight classes over 100 years. It seems a lot more interesting than most of the other threads. How many Tyson or Marciano threads do we need?

The format makes it difficult.. because you have to see who's already in, then figure out Ok, who should I vote for that's remaining. Furthermore, only their names in plain text are presented, with no other information.... so anyone who wants to vote, has to go research it, which gets tiresome.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 20 Aug 2007, 17:35

Basilio was a two-weight champ and a much smaller man than Fullmer. He lost to a much younger Fullmer in the twilight of his career.

Of course Basilio should get in long before one would waste a thought about Fullmer.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 21 Aug 2007, 06:39

I think Benitez getting in above so many greats shows a bit of the demographics of the voters. Benitez was great but I think he's in way too early.

George Dixon should be in by now IMO, as should all those who got 6 votes...maybe next time.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 21 Aug 2007, 09:34

I think Benitez is very deserving. He won a the Jr Welterweight title against a very good champion in Cervantes, beat a good welterweight champion in Palomino, and beat Roberto Duran. He also won the Jr Middleweight title with a brutal knockout. Even in losses to Leonard and Hearns, he held his own. He did have a few off performances and should have had a longer career, but still it was a great career.

I really don't think there has been a problem with age demographics. 19 of the 41 elected so far retired before World War II.
27 of the 41 elected so far started their career before World War II was over.
(Louis,Charles,Moore,Conn,Robinson,Williams,Pep and Saddler began their career before World War II was over and retired after it was over.)

I agree that Dixon should be in by now. I have been voting for him for quite some time. He has been getting some support, so maybe next time he will make it. As you mentioned, there are several guys that are close. Kid Chocolate has been 1 vote short the last 3 times! Maybe next time he will make it. Carlos Ortiz, Carlos Zarate, Charlie Burley, and Tommy Loughran also just missed by one vote.

Of course sometimes a guy will get close and then for some reason his momentum stalls. Michael Spinks almost made it several ballots ago and now for some reason doesn't get much support. Packy McFarland seemed to be gaining ground and only missed by one vote in the 5th ballot. Then for some reason, he only got 3 votes in the 6th ballot.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 21 Aug 2007, 09:47

pundit wrote:Basilio was a two-weight champ and a much smaller man than Fullmer. He lost to a much younger Fullmer in the twilight of his career.

Of course Basilio should get in long before one would waste a thought about Fullmer.

I don't see why you would think Basilio was much smaller. They were in the same weight class. Fullmer only outweighed him by 3 pounds and was only one and a half inches taller.

I don't believe Basilio had declined when he fought Fullmer. He was only 32, and had showed no signs of declining in previous fights. His performances against Fullmer were similar to his other fights.

I already stated earlier why Fullmer's career was more impressive than Basilio's even without factoring in their head to head fights.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 21 Aug 2007, 09:50

Is there any way we can implement a system that rewards voters? maybe if you have voted in 5 ballots then you get to pick 26 fighters, or perhaps your votes counts double or something?

Just an idea to get more people voting.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 21 Aug 2007, 09:52

JCS wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote: Does anyone have any thoughts on why the Boxrec Hall of Fame doesn't get more attention? After all, we are talking about opinions of the greatest fighters of all weight classes over 100 years. It seems a lot more interesting than most of the other threads. How many Tyson or Marciano threads do we need?
The format makes it difficult.. because you have to see who's already in, then figure out Ok, who should I vote for that's remaining. Furthermore, only their names in plain text are presented, with no other information.... so anyone who wants to vote, has to go research it, which gets tiresome.

Next time I think I will list who is already in the Hall of Fame in the same thread as the ballot, so voters won't have to go back to the Hall of Fame Sticky. Hopefully that will make things a little easier.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 21 Aug 2007, 09:52

Ambling Alp wrote:I think Benitez is very deserving. He won a the Jr Welterweight title against a very good champion in Cervantes, beat a good welterweight champion in Palomino, and beat Roberto Duran. He also won the Jr Middleweight title with a brutal knockout. Even in losses to Leonard and Hearns, he held his own. He did have a few off performances and should have had a longer career, but still it was a great career.

I really don't think there has been a problem with age demographics. 19 of the 41 elected so far retired before World War II.
27 of the 41 elected so far started their career before World War II was over.
(Louis,Charles,Moore,Conn,Robinson,Williams,Pep and Saddler began their career before World War II was over and retired after it was over.)

I agree that Dixon should be in by now. I have been voting for him for quite some time. He has been getting some support, so maybe next time he will make it. As you mentioned, there are several guys that are close. Kid Chocolate has been 1 vote short the last 3 times! Maybe next time he will make it. Carlos Ortiz, Carlos Zarate, Charlie Burley, and Tommy Loughran also just missed by one vote.

Of course sometimes a guy will get close and then for some reason his momentum stalls. Michael Spinks almost made it several ballots ago and now for some reason doesn't get much support. Packy McFarland seemed to be gaining ground and only missed by one vote in the 5th ballot. Then for some reason, he only got 3 votes in the 6th ballot.

Didn't really mean to criticise benitez, the ballot or the people who vote... the thing is though about your 19/41 argument is that these guys are the cream of world boxing. I mean these guys had to be in. Once the household names are in we may see voting swing towards fighters from the last 30 years...

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 21 Aug 2007, 10:03

Ambling Alp wrote:
pundit wrote:Basilio was a two-weight champ and a much smaller man than Fullmer. He lost to a much younger Fullmer in the twilight of his career.

Of course Basilio should get in long before one would waste a thought about Fullmer.
I don't see why you would think Basilio was much smaller. They were in the same weight class. Fullmer only outweighed him by 3 pounds and was only one and a half inches taller.

Come on, just look at the video. Basilio was dwarfed by Fullmer. Basilio was a natural welterweight. Fullmer would never have had a chance to fight at a lower weight class than middle.

I don't believe Basilio had declined when he fought Fullmer. He was only 32, and had showed no signs of declining in previous fights. His performances against Fullmer were similar to his other fights.

"He was oly 32" means nothing. Basilio had more than 70 fights under his belt at the time, among them 30 gruelling rounds with (the also much bigger) SRR. He retired less than a year after the Fullmer fights because there was nothing left in him.

I already stated earlier why Fullmer's career was more impressive than Basilio's even without factoring in their head to head fights.

So Fullmer was a two-weight champion who was competitive in world title fights over a period of 8 years??

Only mechanically rattling down boxrec stats without an understanding of the story behind them can get you to such an absurd conclusion.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 21 Aug 2007, 10:28

The election of Sonny Liston almost killed my interest, but I still have a suggestion for the next round. We should announce the next vote on All forums, or at least the Current, Boxeo Mundial, British and Australian ones. If you think that would lead to chaos, just remember how many voters on the Boxers of the Past Forum, didn't know who was already in.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 21 Aug 2007, 11:25

Sorry that you didn't agree with Liston's election, but don't let that ruin this for you. Occasionally someone will get in ahead of people that you feel are much better.

It might not be a bad idea to mention the voting to the Boxeo Mundial,British, and Australian sites during the next ballot. I haven't been on these sites much and don't really know. It's something to consider.

However, I don't think it would be a good idea to it on the Current Scene for a couple of reasons.
First, on average, the knowledge of boxing isn't nearly as good as the people that are regulars on this forum. Many people there are incapable of making a coherent point. Many seem to to be completely incapable of differentiating between how good a fighter is and whether or not they like him.

Second, you would probably see a large slant of voting towards fighter who fought more recently. Many of the people there probably have little idea who Lou Ambers, George Dixon, or John Henry Lewis were.

I would really like to see knowledgable people who are regulars on this forum who haven't been voting to vote from now on. I mean people like Martin sosa Cameron,Cap,barry,I Feel Fine, kick anser,KOJOE90, and Ric.

Other knowledgable regulars have voted sometimes but not all of the time. It would be great if people like expug, The Great John L, Boxbuzz,Decagon, Boxscribe,Ice, and Dempseyfire would vote every time from now on.

To sum it up, it would better to have 20-25 knowledgable people vote than 10. However, it's much better to have 10 knowledgable people vote than 50 people vote, but most aren't that knowledgeable.