What I mean by myths is that the logic with Ali is that he was so fast that nobody could scarcely reach him, let alone reach him. That he was the greatest all around fighter in HW history [meaning he was fool-proof in every single way], and that nobody in his prime could win a single round against him.
Ali in those senses, are closer to his own myths being true, than Marciano was in saying he was the ultimate destroyer.
Ali was the fastest HW in his prime yes, but even at that, he could still be hit, and lose a round or two along the way, and he wasn't a solid fighter in every way either his defense more or less was his offense [the constant jabbing] seeing as he was a bad infighter, wasnt terrible at it, but was pretty bad at it.
As far as the "urban legends" surrounding Ali with the Folley fight, Jones 'beating' Ali, and Cooper KO'ing Ali...those are more foods for thought, mental junk food and really speculative, more than being things of real seriousness.
Folley gave Ali NO boxing lesson, it was rather one-sided in my honest opinion. Jones and Ali was a rather tough fight, and is actually one of Ali's worser fights; but was it so much that he 'lost' or was it that he failed to knock out Jones like he 'predicted' he would, hell after round 6 the audience booed from then on since Ali failed to make the prophecy fulfilled. Cooper? It's speculative, but the time in between the rounds was over a minute.*
*As a side note, almost 25 years later, during the Tyson-Thomas fight, a eerily similar occurence happened between the 5th and 6th rounds as Angello Dundee claimed a torn glove had occured. Unfortunately the replacement or the extra minute inbetween didn't help Thomas one iota. Of course, this could have been 'revenge' in a sense on Dundee's part considering some months before Tyson had stopped another of Dundee's fighters, Trevor Berbick.
Why Rocky Marciano Could Have Defeated "The Greatest&qu
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I Feel Fine
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Interesting. I've only seen clips of Tyson-Thomas, its the only Tyson title fight I haven't seen in its entirerty actually, so I can't comment on that.
I agree with your post, except I don't know how many Ali fans literally believe he couldn't lose a single round or that he didn't have faults. I'm sure the vast majority would agree with those things.
As for Clay-Jones, I actually saw it again the other week, and again I think Clay won rather clearly... as you say, the crowd was insanely on Jones' side, Jones would literally land a jab and they would go wild. They boo'd loudly in the 4th when the prediction failed, and plus I think many of them didn't like Clay to begin with and many also sided with Jones who was the hometown fighter. I think the crowd definitely effects people's scoring and perception of the fight. But, quite honestly, I've seen dozens and dozens of fights that were much closer and might have warranted more controversy than Clay-Jones.
And I still side with the film of the Cooper fight, which shows no extended break. But who knows.
I agree with your post, except I don't know how many Ali fans literally believe he couldn't lose a single round or that he didn't have faults. I'm sure the vast majority would agree with those things.
As for Clay-Jones, I actually saw it again the other week, and again I think Clay won rather clearly... as you say, the crowd was insanely on Jones' side, Jones would literally land a jab and they would go wild. They boo'd loudly in the 4th when the prediction failed, and plus I think many of them didn't like Clay to begin with and many also sided with Jones who was the hometown fighter. I think the crowd definitely effects people's scoring and perception of the fight. But, quite honestly, I've seen dozens and dozens of fights that were much closer and might have warranted more controversy than Clay-Jones.
And I still side with the film of the Cooper fight, which shows no extended break. But who knows.
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HomicideHenry
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HomicideHenry
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Here is some rare, somewhat comical, pics of Marciano and Ali posing for the 1969 "Super Fight", it really puts into perspective the great size difference between the 5'10" and 195 (then) pound Marciano, and the 6'3" 220 (possibly more) pound Ali.
Muhammad Ali, Murray Woroner, and Rocky Marciano
Muhammad Ali and Rocky Marciano comparing eachother's reach
Maybe later on I'll take screen shots from the actual Super Fight dvd [dunno if that's legal or not but w/e].
Muhammad Ali, Murray Woroner, and Rocky Marciano
Muhammad Ali and Rocky Marciano comparing eachother's reach
Maybe later on I'll take screen shots from the actual Super Fight dvd [dunno if that's legal or not but w/e].
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'Rocket'Rigby
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HomicideHenry wrote:Here is some rare, somewhat comical, pics of Marciano and Ali posing for the 1969 "Super Fight", it really puts into perspective the great size difference between the 5'10" and 195 (then) pound Marciano, and the 6'3" 220 (possibly more) pound Ali.
Muhammad Ali, Murray Woroner, and Rocky Marciano
Muhammad Ali and Rocky Marciano comparing eachother's reach
Maybe later on I'll take screen shots from the actual Super Fight dvd [dunno if that's legal or not but w/e].
Anybody else think that Marciano looks in better shape than Ali?
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'Rocket'Rigby
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HomicideHenry
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Truth is, Marciano trained as hard, if not harder, than most men do for a real fight, when he began training for the Super Fight, so that he would get into some resemblance of what he once was. The result of eating right, running 8-12 miles a day, working in the gym was a loss of over 50 pounds.
Everett Skehan wrote in Marciano, Biography of a First Son:
"When Rocky went to the dingy gym on the North Side of Miami Beach he was thinking tough, expecting things to go smoothly but prepared for anything. He had been briefed, knew the punches were to be pulled, and that it would not be a real fight. But Rocky wouldn't go into the ring that way. Even at forty-six, he had to feel that if something went wrong, if suddenly the punches became real, he would be ready to win."
On the flip side, Ali didn't take it at all seriously, figuring the $8,000 bucks for a week of work was going to be a cake walk, nothing to be serious about, so was no reason to train. It was agreed that head shots were to be pulled, but body shots were okay.
After filming Ali would later say of Marciano:
"My whole body ached, and ours wasn't even a real fight."
"I can't believe how strong and how hard Rocky can hit. Marciano was a lot harder to hit with a jab than he looked. I can feel how great Marciano must have been just from being in the ring with him when he was 46 years old. I can't imagine what Rocky must have been like in his prime."
Of course, many rumors and stories sprouted from out of the gym in Miami where the "Super Fight of The Century" was being filmed. One was that Ali asked Woroner for an additional $2,000 and a day or two of rest because Marciano had beat on Ali's elbows and arms and they were injured. Another was a cast & crew luncheon where Marciano joked "Is it still okay to hit Muhammad to the body?" to which Ali raised his shirt and showed the welts and bruises and said "No!".
But the biggest of the stories was the "wig incident". According to Angello Dundee, it did indeed happen, that Muhammad knocked Marciano's wig off repeatedly during filming and Marciano got pissed, offered Ali to have a real fight with him if he was game, and had to cool down while both men were seperated.
But according to Ferdie Pacheco, Murray Woroner and a few other observers, this is what happened:
Ali knocks Marciano's wig off, filming is stopped so that Marciano's wig can be refitted. Marciano is embarassed and says "He has no respect for me at all!" but was reassured it was just an accident. Filming starts again, and Ali shoots a high jab and knocks the wig off again. Filming stops. Marciano automatically yells at Ali "Don't you do that again!", the wig is then refitted and filming resumes.
Immediately Ali throws the high jab, the wig goes flying and without hesitation Marciano throws a wicked, devestating body shot and Ali doubles over and [according to Pacheco and Woroner] hits the canvas. Marciano tells Ali he's more than willing to fight Ali right then and there, and the two men are seperated and only until Ali apologised did filming resume.
Even Dundee will say that after that [least his version of the story] Ali's attitude to Marciano was much different.
Now there are those who also claim that the famous body shot was more like a sucker punch, and it was Marciano who apologized to Ali; but nevertheless a body shot somewhere in the 70 round segements they shot got Ali's attention.
The only drawback to Woroner, and Pacheco's account is that if indeed this had occured, where was the film of it? If indeed such a frame existed, wouldn't you think Woroner would have used it to his fullest advantage to "prove" Marciano was truly the "All-Time Heavyweight Champion", that if he at 46 could drop the great Ali, that a prime Marciano would have killed him? But if it did indeed exist, it certainly must have ended up on the cutting room floor of the editing process.
Though it does make you wonder if it was true, considering Pacheco was a fixture of Ali's camp for many, many years.
But yeah, Ali didn't take the filming seriously, Marciano did. Hence why Ali doesnt look real fit, and Marciano did. I think they even said at one point that Marciano's waist line was even slimmer than Ali's.
Everett Skehan wrote in Marciano, Biography of a First Son:
"When Rocky went to the dingy gym on the North Side of Miami Beach he was thinking tough, expecting things to go smoothly but prepared for anything. He had been briefed, knew the punches were to be pulled, and that it would not be a real fight. But Rocky wouldn't go into the ring that way. Even at forty-six, he had to feel that if something went wrong, if suddenly the punches became real, he would be ready to win."
On the flip side, Ali didn't take it at all seriously, figuring the $8,000 bucks for a week of work was going to be a cake walk, nothing to be serious about, so was no reason to train. It was agreed that head shots were to be pulled, but body shots were okay.
After filming Ali would later say of Marciano:
"My whole body ached, and ours wasn't even a real fight."
"I can't believe how strong and how hard Rocky can hit. Marciano was a lot harder to hit with a jab than he looked. I can feel how great Marciano must have been just from being in the ring with him when he was 46 years old. I can't imagine what Rocky must have been like in his prime."
Of course, many rumors and stories sprouted from out of the gym in Miami where the "Super Fight of The Century" was being filmed. One was that Ali asked Woroner for an additional $2,000 and a day or two of rest because Marciano had beat on Ali's elbows and arms and they were injured. Another was a cast & crew luncheon where Marciano joked "Is it still okay to hit Muhammad to the body?" to which Ali raised his shirt and showed the welts and bruises and said "No!".
But the biggest of the stories was the "wig incident". According to Angello Dundee, it did indeed happen, that Muhammad knocked Marciano's wig off repeatedly during filming and Marciano got pissed, offered Ali to have a real fight with him if he was game, and had to cool down while both men were seperated.
But according to Ferdie Pacheco, Murray Woroner and a few other observers, this is what happened:
Ali knocks Marciano's wig off, filming is stopped so that Marciano's wig can be refitted. Marciano is embarassed and says "He has no respect for me at all!" but was reassured it was just an accident. Filming starts again, and Ali shoots a high jab and knocks the wig off again. Filming stops. Marciano automatically yells at Ali "Don't you do that again!", the wig is then refitted and filming resumes.
Immediately Ali throws the high jab, the wig goes flying and without hesitation Marciano throws a wicked, devestating body shot and Ali doubles over and [according to Pacheco and Woroner] hits the canvas. Marciano tells Ali he's more than willing to fight Ali right then and there, and the two men are seperated and only until Ali apologised did filming resume.
Even Dundee will say that after that [least his version of the story] Ali's attitude to Marciano was much different.
Now there are those who also claim that the famous body shot was more like a sucker punch, and it was Marciano who apologized to Ali; but nevertheless a body shot somewhere in the 70 round segements they shot got Ali's attention.
The only drawback to Woroner, and Pacheco's account is that if indeed this had occured, where was the film of it? If indeed such a frame existed, wouldn't you think Woroner would have used it to his fullest advantage to "prove" Marciano was truly the "All-Time Heavyweight Champion", that if he at 46 could drop the great Ali, that a prime Marciano would have killed him? But if it did indeed exist, it certainly must have ended up on the cutting room floor of the editing process.
Though it does make you wonder if it was true, considering Pacheco was a fixture of Ali's camp for many, many years.
But yeah, Ali didn't take the filming seriously, Marciano did. Hence why Ali doesnt look real fit, and Marciano did. I think they even said at one point that Marciano's waist line was even slimmer than Ali's.
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I Feel Fine
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HomicideHenry
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