Danny Williams back with Jim McDonnell

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 26 Nov 2003, 08:27

Williams' brief hiatus with trainer Adam Booth is over. He's back with Jimmy Mac. I felt that all was not sweetness and light between Williams and Booth during the Sprott fight. Did you notice how Williams continually ignored Booth immediately after the fight and just kept circling the ring! It was obvious Williams had little respect for his trainer to ignore him repeatedly like that.

REAL_DEAL · Post by **REAL_DEAL** » 26 Nov 2003, 08:30

Dont think Booth can teach williams anything new, It wasnt Jimmy Mac fault williams lost if williams had singles,

good move in going back to mac, and lets see williams in with hide and harrison next year,

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 26 Nov 2003, 08:35

Strange one indeed, I'm not surprised that Danny left Booth to be honest, things didn't look right there. However, surprised he's gone back to MacDonnel. I thought he would have gone back to the foreign coach he had for one fight after the Sam loss.

I think Jim will get Danny's fitness going (although Danny should already know how to train - from their first time together). Perhaps this time they can use the tactical knowledge of an American coach (someone like Steward) and maybe they can get something going.

When Danny said he's going to America (straight after the Sam defeat) I thought "great, both he and Jim can learn from the best". I was shocked when he sacked Jim, because Jim had brought him very far after his Francis setback and he was in good form prior to the Sam defeat. It was a hasty decision.

Jim does seem to inspire Danny to be in the top shape, but I do think Danny needs an old head (and top sparring) in the team aswell. This will involve basing himself in America (he can still fight here though - he needs to do an Adrian Stone).

So overall, I'm happy that Jim is back on board. Danny has been lost without him, maybe they can go to America to pick up a tactical advisor.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 26 Nov 2003, 08:37

Well I certainly don't think the time spent with Booth hurt Williams at all, he was in superb shape for the Sprott rematch, looking more powerful than I've ever seen him. But he obviously feels more comfortable with Jimmy Mac so that's who he should be training under.

Wonder if Herbie Hide is ever going to respond to Danny's open letter in Boxing News.. oh but hang on the Norwich man has too much class to get involved in that kind of stuff.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 26 Nov 2003, 09:23

Superb shape?! Are you insane, he was overweight and was blowing hard by the 3rd round of the fight, if that's your idea of fighting shape, then I guess you think Garing Lane is a top flight athelete. Williams weighed in at a whopping 255 for the fight with Sprott, way way too heavy for Danny.

Danny Williams looks best when he is around the 225-240 lb mark, he was slow and ponderous against Sprott, and was getting his ears boxed off, if Sprott hadn't looked for a way out, and kept on boxing like he had been, Williams would have been exhausted by about the 9th round.

Mark my words with McDonnell training him, he will be back under 240 within 2-3 fights.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 26 Nov 2003, 09:41

I suggest you watch the Sprott fight again James. So what if Danny was 18 stone? He had arguably the finest muscle definition of his career. He looked like a frigging tank.

Danny has always said he feels weaker in the ring when he comes in lighter. Watch the fights with Long and Mirovic and you might see what he's talking about.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 26 Nov 2003, 10:48

Kilburn, I was sitting in the front row of the press section as I recall, so I had a perfectly good view of the action thanks, and everyone in the press section was commenting on the fact that Williams was open mouthed early on.

Being built like a tank is not a prerequisite for being a successful heavyweight, nor a big puncher for that matter. Williams might be a relatively big hitter, but he's hardly in the league of Foreman or Shavers.

Foreman weighed around 220 in his peak, and was taller than Williams too, though not as thickset around the legs and back, I cannot think of a single big puncher who in their prime weighed 255, even Tua was at his best 235 or so.

Williams' best performances of his career, such as the destructions of Kali Meehan and Julius Francis, saw him weigh in around 235-240.

Punchpower is more about movement than muscle size, and having huge chest muscles and definition is not important, those things are impressive to look at, but only count in Mr Universe, not boxing.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 26 Nov 2003, 11:15

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Kilburn, I was sitting in the front row of the press section as I recall, so I had a perfectly good view of the action thanks, and everyone in the press section was commenting on the fact that Williams was open mouthed early on.

Being built like a tank is not a prerequisite for being a successful heavyweight, nor a big puncher for that matter. Williams might be a relatively big hitter, but he's hardly in the league of Foreman or Shavers.

Foreman weighed around 220 in his peak, and was taller than Williams too, though not as thickset around the legs and back, I cannot think of a single big puncher who in their prime weighed 255, even Tua was at his best 235 or so.

Williams' best performances of his career, such as the destructions of Kali Meehan and Julius Francis, saw him weigh in around 235-240.

Punchpower is more about movement than muscle size, and having huge chest muscles and definition is not important, those things are impressive to look at, but only count in Mr Universe, not boxing.

Er.. so what is your point exactly? Was Williams in shape or wasn't he? You say Danny's mouth was open after 3 rounds (f*ck me thats rare in a heavyweight match!) implying that he couldn't handle the pace but at the same time pass comment on his "chest muscles and definition". Crikey James, Williams managed 12 brisk rounds against Harry Senior with his belly nearly hanging over his shorts, clearly out of shape for a late notice fight. Now all of a sudden he's ready to collapse because you've seen him with an open mouth? Have a bit of respect for the guy.

And I never mentioned punching power so god knows why you went off on one about George Foreman. I said earlier that Danny looked very powerful (i.e strong) because of the shape he was in. Even Jimmy Mac has admitted that 18st is Danny's best fighting weight so I wouldn't expect that weight loss idea of yours to come into effect any time soon now that fighter and trainer are back together.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 26 Nov 2003, 11:27

Now in my opinion Danny's best every display was against Keith Long prior to his Sam defeat. Now, I can't remeber Danny's weight that night but he was undoubtedly fit that night. He threw hard punches continously for 12 rounds. While he got clipped a bit too much, he showed some world class (yes, I did say world class) things that night. Namely Stamina and workrate

I remember watch Tua vs Rahman a few weeks later thinking "these two are gasping and their not working at half the paste of Williams".

Whatever Williams' weight was against Long (and I believe he was light) Jimmy Mac and Danny need to work at keeping it at this weight consistently.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 26 Nov 2003, 11:37

I thought I made it quite clear what the difference was, how much

The fact that modern heavyweights get breathless after three rounds is testament to the fact that a lot of them are too bulked up through weight training. Watch the David Tua v Ike Ibeabuchi fight and compare the electric pace Tua fought at then compared to now.

Being fat does not neccesarily mean you are unfit. Look at James Toney in his fight with Evander, he had a spare tire or two, but he was obviously in good shape judging by the amount of shots he threw.

Yes, Danny looked big and strong, but so what? It wasn't doing him much good until he twatted Sprott in the knackers, and Sprott decided to spend the remainder of the fight with his arms dangling by his sides gazing imploringly at the referee.

And why the calls to 'have respect' for Williams?

1 I have no duty to give him respect whatsoever
2 I am not disrespecting him in the first place.

And you are the one contradicting yourself, not me, by harping on about how he fought Harry Senior at a brisk pace with a gut, you are only confirming what I said, which is that having big defined muscles does not mean you are in good shape. Tyson normally looks big and buff and he is consistently in terrible shape. All a naturally muscular fighter needs to do is pump weights to 'look' in shape.

You are the one who said he looked in 'superb shape' not me, I thought he looked unfit. Just because other heavyweights are gasping for air after 3 rounds, does not make it desirable. I don't recall Ali and Frazier gasping for air after a few rounds, or even Lewis in his 230 lb prime.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 26 Nov 2003, 11:39

stujones wrote:Whatever Williams' weight was against Long (and I believe he was light) Jimmy Mac and Danny need to work at keeping it at this weight consistently.

I disagree Stu, Williams was out muscled nearly all night by a very limited fighter. It was a poor spectacle until the last round where Danny finally managed to create some space between himself and the challenger.

Domestically guys don't back Danny up when he comes in at his most comfortable weight, which is 18st plus.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 26 Nov 2003, 11:49

Kilburn,

I think your underestimating Long a tad there. I'm not sure if an 18 stone Williams would have been able out-stengthed Long, who like a poor man's Tua. He hasn't faught that many class operators full stop, so it is hard to judge "Would he have been better at 18 stone".

What impressed me about Williams that night was his punch output - he must have been throwing 100 punches a round that night and kept it up. It was hardly the same against Sam now was it.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 26 Nov 2003, 12:10

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
And you are the one contradicting yourself, not me, by harping on about how he fought Harry Senior at a brisk pace with a gut, you are only confirming what I said, which is that having big defined muscles does not mean you are in good shape. Tyson normally looks big and buff and he is consistently in terrible shape. All a naturally muscular fighter needs to do is pump weights to 'look' in shape.

You are the one who said he looked in 'superb shape' not me, I thought he looked unfit. Just because other heavyweights are gasping for air after 3 rounds, does not make it desirable. I don't recall Ali and Frazier gasping for air after a few rounds, or even Lewis in his 230 lb prime.

Here we go again. It was Foreman before now it's Ali and Frazier. Lets not have any more of that nonsense. These modern day super-heavweights do tend to suffer from fatigue quicker than their predecessors, Lennox Lewis ESPECIALLY. It's a fact. They're naturally bigger. Shedding weight does not make them naturally smaller men. That's why Jimmy Mac and Danny Williams know that 18st or more is Danny's ideal fighting weight.

And regarding the Senior fight how on earth have I contradicted myself? Read the posts again mate, hopefully it'll all become clear. Do you honestly believe Williams was in anything like as good shape to go 12 rounds for Senior fight as he was for Sprott in september? Obviously not and yet Danny still completed the 12 competitive rounds on barely a weeks notcie. But oh yeah that's right, his mouth was open against Sprott. He was ready to go. Maybe in your world mate.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 26 Nov 2003, 12:12

stujones wrote:Kilburn,

IWhat impressed me about Williams that night was his punch output - he must have been throwing 100 punches a round that night and kept it up.

Bloody hell thank god I taped the fight because that's not the performance I remember. I'll give it a look at the weekend Stu and let you know if I see it any differently.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 26 Nov 2003, 12:15

Kilburn wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:
And you are the one contradicting yourself, not me, by harping on about how he fought Harry Senior at a brisk pace with a gut, you are only confirming what I said, which is that having big defined muscles does not mean you are in good shape. Tyson normally looks big and buff and he is consistently in terrible shape. All a naturally muscular fighter needs to do is pump weights to 'look' in shape.

You are the one who said he looked in 'superb shape' not me, I thought he looked unfit. Just because other heavyweights are gasping for air after 3 rounds, does not make it desirable. I don't recall Ali and Frazier gasping for air after a few rounds, or even Lewis in his 230 lb prime.
Here we go again. It was Foreman before now it's Ali and Frazier. Lets not have any more of that nonsense. These modern day super-heavweights do tend to suffer from fatigue quicker than their predecessors, Lennox Lewis ESPECIALLY. It's a fact. They're naturally bigger. Shedding weight does not make them naturally smaller men. That's why Jimmy Mac and Danny Williams know that 18st or more is Danny's ideal fighting weight.

And regarding the Senior fight how on earth have I contradicted myself? Read the posts again mate, hopefully it'll all become clear. Do you honestly believe Williams was in anything like as good shape to go 12 rounds for Senior fight as he was for Sprott in september? Obviously not and yet Danny still completed the 12 competitive rounds on barely a weeks notcie. But oh yeah that's right, his mouth was open against Sprott. He was ready to go. Maybe in your world mate.

Mr Kilburn

Pardon me for butting in but I think you should alter your tone sonny jim. I believe James is a member of the boxing press is he not?

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 26 Nov 2003, 12:16

Please do, alot of it might have been on the back foot - but he was throwing the shots all night long (no pun intended).

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 26 Nov 2003, 12:29

I never said he was ready to, i said he was tiring very quickly.

And as it happens your statement about naturally bigger men is incorrect. Fatigue is exacerbated

What was Ali, a midget? He was 6'4" mate it's not like we're talking about Marvin hart here is it, and he was 220 lbs. Now guys 6'4" are weighing in at 240+, it's not because they are just 'naturally' bigger, it's suplements and the belief that size=strength=punchpower, which isn't the case. Christ Thomas hearns was one of the lankiest mutherfuckers ever, but boy could he punch.

I don't think modern heavyweights are as well conditioned simple as that, there is an overeliance on weight training programmes to increase physical strength. When Lewis was in his mid twenties, and about 17 stone in weight, he didn't tire anything like he did now.

I've spoken to nutritionist on this subject, and the reason for this is that muscles require large amounts of oxygen to be metabolised to function, the bigger the muscles the quicker the body metabolises oxygen, and hence oxygen debt, burning in the muscles and fatigue.

Frank Bruno used to spar with a mate of mine as an amateur, and apparently as a young boxer he was nowhere near as muscular, he became obsessed with weight training due to the impact it had on his physique aesthetically, well, we all know what Bruno's stamina was like, but he was not a 'naturally' big man, he was a naturally muscular fighter who built an imposing physique through weight training.

Remember that before the mid 80's onward, weight training was not really a big factor in fighters training, Muhammad Ali did virtually none, and Foreman and Frazier didn't do much either.

The comparisons I am making are not to do with the theory of some golden age, merely making a point about misconceptions about what constitutes good physical condition.

nasty · Post by **nasty** » 26 Nov 2003, 12:31

William's is my favourite British fighter

2004 is a big year for him

In january he faces Sprott who I think Danny will knock out early

Than the big one, Audrey Harrison in April/May

This is a 50/50 fight, If Danny is lethargic than he'll be beat although i don't think Audrey has the power to stop him.

If Danny is 100% mentally focused, HE'LL KNOCK OUT Harrison by the 8th round

Than this will lead to a Rematch with Sam, who Danny will KO this time by the 10th round

This will put Danny in the World's Top 10 and could mean a World Title Shot in 2005!

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Priff · Post by **Priff** » 26 Nov 2003, 13:28

Kilburn wrote: Do you honestly believe Williams was in anything like as good shape to go 12 rounds for Senior fight as he was for Sprott in september? Obviously not and yet Danny still completed the 12 competitive rounds on barely a weeks notcie. But oh yeah that's right, his mouth was open against Sprott. He was ready to go. Maybe in your world mate.

I gotta agree with the bulk of what James is saying, although perhaps not all of his illustrative examples.

Kilburn, you say DW was in good shape for the Sprott fight because he had "arguably the best muscular definition of his career". James clearly disputes that definition equates to fitness, and I'd have to agree.

If his muscles were defined, it means:
a) He had good muscular seperation
b) He burned off a lot more calories (but not too much) per day then he took in, over a period before the fight.

That doesn't mean he was fit (and I guess we are also talking Stamina here, which complicates the matter yet further as stamina and fitness are disperate terms).

I saw some guy on the BBC website, supposed to be the fitest man in the world. Competed in some multi event thing. Not a defined muscle on his body.

We are talking 12 rounds of boxing here.
Compare a 100m sprinter to an average Joe who can run a couple of miles in the morning. The sprinter will have the muscular definition and the "fitness", but he's gonna have poor stamina compared to the average runner over the longer distance.

It is entirely possible that Danny was in better shape to go 12 rounds with fat than he was to go 12 rounds with a defined body.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 26 Nov 2003, 13:30

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I never said he was ready to, i said he was tiring very quickly.

And as it happens your statement about naturally bigger men is incorrect. Fatigue is exacerbated

What was Ali, a midget? He was 6'4" mate it's not like we're talking about Marvin hart here is it, and he was 220 lbs. Now guys 6'4" are weighing in at 240+, it's not because they are just 'naturally' bigger, it's suplements and the belief that size=strength=punchpower, which isn't the case. Christ Thomas hearns was one of the lankiest mutherfuckers ever, but boy could he punch.

I don't think modern heavyweights are as well conditioned simple as that, there is an overeliance on weight training programmes to increase physical strength. When Lewis was in his mid twenties, and about 17 stone in weight, he didn't tire anything like he did now.

I've spoken to nutritionist on this subject, and the reason for this is that muscles require large amounts of oxygen to be metabolised to function, the bigger the muscles the quicker the body metabolises oxygen, and hence oxygen debt, burning in the muscles and fatigue.

Frank Bruno used to spar with a mate of mine as an amateur, and apparently as a young boxer he was nowhere near as muscular, he became obsessed with weight training due to the impact it had on his physique aesthetically, well, we all know what Bruno's stamina was like, but he was not a 'naturally' big man, he was a naturally muscular fighter who built an imposing physique through weight training.

Remember that before the mid 80's onward, weight training was not really a big factor in fighters training, Muhammad Ali did virtually none, and Foreman and Frazier didn't do much either.

The comparisons I am making are not to do with the theory of some golden age, merely making a point about misconceptions about what constitutes good physical condition.

It's difficult to respond James because you're drifting. Of course Ali wasn't a midget, but in his prime he hardly ever weighed much over 15st which would be very by todays standards. Yeah Ali could have handled himself with the current crop but we're not comparing ability here.

Danny Williams didn't appear "musclebound" against Sprott, he just looked very, very solid. It was obvious he was in great shape. But you question whether he can do the 12 round distance because he's carrying a bit more definition? Even though he managed it easily before on a weeks notice? You can't apply Bruno's terrible stamina problems to every other heavyweight who has a bit of muscle showing. Williams and Bruno are worlds apart terms of their physiques and workrate over 12 rounds. I honestly think you let Danny's appearance fool you into thinking he was burning up more energy than he actually was.

Oh and when exactly did Lennox Lewis have good stamina? He was in his twenties against Bruno and was practically puffing after throwing his first combination!

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 26 Nov 2003, 13:40

Priff wrote: It is entirely possible that Danny was in better shape to go 12 rounds with fat than he was to go 12 rounds with a defined body.

You have to appreciate Priff I'm talking defined by Williams standards. If he came in looking like Bruno or Holyfield (which would never happen of course) then yeah I'd conceed that he could well run out of steam in the second half of a fight.

mrbassie · Post by **mrbassie** » 26 Nov 2003, 14:53

REAL_DEAL wrote:Dont think Booth can teach williams anything new, It wasnt Jimmy Mac fault williams lost if williams had shingles,

good move in going back to mac, and lets see williams in with hide and harrison next year,

Do you buy the shingles story? I've had shingles and it is excuciatingly painful, but it doesn't make you sick in the literal sense of the word. It attacks the nerve endings andd the only effects are pain and inflamation/blistering of the skin (typically on the abdomen, I myself have some scars), but it can be gotten rid of in about ten days with medication and once the pain's gone you're perfectly fine.
So my question is did he say he had it during training camp, or did he say something like i was still in his system and it weakened him (which would be bullshit)?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 26 Nov 2003, 14:54

Relatively speaking, Lewis used to be able to throw a lot more shots than he does now, part of that is age, but part of it is just that he is so damned big.

Funny how people have forgotten that Bruno was giving Lewis a boxing Lesson before Lewis took his head off.

The point about Ali I was making, was that if he used the kind of training methods employed by fighters today, he would probably be more like 235 lbs, presuming he wanted to train that way of course.

You have to admit, carrying around all that extra bulk puts more strain on the heart and lungs.

And the reason I said Danny looked unfit, was becaus he was gasping for air wheras Sprott who was throwing a lot more shots looked totally fine.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 26 Nov 2003, 15:01

danny with is 10th trainer in 2 months.... lol! i always love these boxing makeovers, when they get knocked out and they change their trainers, hair cut, shorts- everything!

all the trainers int he world couldn't help danny williams... unless they can pump some additional bone marrow into his jaw?

The_Power · Post by **The_Power** » 26 Nov 2003, 15:07

overhand_right wrote: all the trainers int he world couldn't help danny williams... unless they can pump some additional bone marrow into his jaw?

Danny Williams back with Jim McDonnell

Danny Williams back with Jim McDonnell

Kilburn are you quite mad?

Re: Kilburn are you quite mad?