Were there any bad decisions at the Olympic trials?

dancemaster · Post by **dancemaster** » 28 Aug 2007, 23:03

Hylon Williams and Raynell Williams fought 3 times in 3 days. Raynell got a gift 17-16 down by 4 with the score 12-8 for Hylon,judges say Raynell scored 9pts in a round where all he did was hold the entire round. Hylon came back and won the second day and won 20-16 and should have been declared the champion. I think he was clearly a victim of politics. Charles Hatley beat Keith Thurman mercilessly for 2 rounds, Keith only through about 5 punches in all the rounds, he was too busy pulling himself up off the ropes. But the final score was 23-14. Daniel Jacobs was clearly robbed when he fought Shawn Estrada that purposely spit his mouth piece out not once but twice in one round and then again the next round. Not once did the judges subract the 2 points that are suppose to be taken when that happens. The last few days of this tournament was absolutely ridiculous and the way I see it if they already knew who they wanted to go they should have just handed them their papers to Beijing and never had the tournament to begin with.

JohnDoe · Post by **JohnDoe** » 28 Aug 2007, 23:42

Raynell outboxed Hylon with his reach, connected clearly and deserved the victory on the second fight.

Hatley should have won but he never would have beat Andrade so it doesn't really matter.

Estrada beat Jacobs twice and didn't spit out his mouth piece on purpose and only dropped it once. He didn't have a fitted mouthpiece and Jacobs lost his mouthpiece as well. Estrada was the better, faster, stronger fighter at the trials and deserved the win.

Bad decisions:
-Rios beat Russell.
-There's no way in hell Andrade racked up a 20 point stoppage against Hatley in their fight.

janedoe · Post by **janedoe** » 29 Aug 2007, 00:13

You have that right. The team as well as the coaches were already picked. What a waste of time and money. We have seen several of the videos that were not allowed to filmed but that is the real proof of the robbery that took place at the trials. Wilson was robbed as well. If he would not have pressed the fight they would have stood in the center of the ring. It is quite clear after watching the tape that he was the clear winner. It was obvious that someone did not want Wilson and Hunter to match. If that would have happened, Hunter would not have won and the plans would have been upset. Ronnie Rios was robbed as well. It is no wonder people don't want to put back into USA Boxing. It is a Sham!

dancemaster wrote:Hylon Williams and Raynell Williams fought 3 times in 3 days. Raynell got a gift 17-16 down by 4 with the score 12-8 for Hylon,judges say Raynell scored 9pts in a round where all he did was hold the entire round. Hylon came back and won the second day and won 20-16 and should have been declared the champion. I think he was clearly a victim of politics. Charles Hatley beat Keith Thurman mercilessly for 2 rounds, Keith only through about 5 punches in all the rounds, he was too busy pulling himself up off the ropes. But the final score was 23-14. Daniel Jacobs was clearly robbed when he fought Shawn Estrada that purposely spit his mouth piece out not once but twice in one round and then again the next round. Not once did the judges subract the 2 points that are suppose to be taken when that happens. The last few days of this tournament was absolutely ridiculous and the way I see it if they already knew who they wanted to go they should have just handed them their papers to Beijing and never had the tournament to begin with.

JohnDoe · Post by **JohnDoe** » 29 Aug 2007, 01:01

Sounds like a conspiracy theory. There's no way in hell that USAB picked Estrada and I'm sure they would have preferred Dargan. That being said, the judges watch the boxers they know and hear about and USAB definitely talks about some a LOT more than others. i.e. Gary Russell seems to be bed buddies with some at USAB.....

emile · Post by **emile** » 29 Aug 2007, 08:05

What are the politics that would favor Raynell Williams over Hylon Williams?

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » 29 Aug 2007, 14:25

You guys who are crying conspiracy do realize that the officials were AIBA officials; not USA Boxing officials; right? To the best of my knowledge this was an AIBA event with USA Boxing supplying the computer system I believe; but the officials weren't all Americans, nor were the judges I would assume.

dancemaster · Post by **dancemaster** » 29 Aug 2007, 17:36

anytime a boxer is down 12-8 going into the 4rd. and the only action in the round is holding by one boxer, how does that boxer recieve 9pts. in that round?unless Raynell got points for 9 holds he did'nt win that fight.Hylon dominated Raynell in that fight with speed and percision Raynell didnt even want to look into the crowd ,hold his head up or anything.Good boxers know when they win,and Raynell knew in his heart he had lost.Hylon out boxed him again saturday 20-16 and should have been the true Olympian.Then even on sunday in a fairly even 1st. rd. they had Raynell up 10-3,thinking there is know way this kid can come back. Hylon narrowed the margin to 11-6,thenin a big rd. by Hylon the score widened again 21-9.Raynell went to the wwf again but this kid rallied again 24-22.So whoever you are john doe when NBC airs these 2 bouts show your freinds and see if they agree.Raynell and Hylon arevery good boxers and very good friends I wish them both long prosperous careers.

emile · Post by **emile** » 29 Aug 2007, 22:29

You forgot to tell me what the political motivation for wanting Raynell to win was supposed to be.

sheepgirl98 · Post by **sheepgirl98** » 29 Aug 2007, 22:33

First of all, let me say this. I am not taking anything away from Raynell as he is a very good boxer, he would have to be to be able to have EVER beat Hylon in the first place. Mr. John Doe you keep talking about the second fight he won but what about the one that was taken away from Hylon and obviously if you were there you saw it and just dont want to mention it. So I said that to say this, IF YOU did see it then you know that Hylon won the first fight, which means he also won the fight on Saturday and therefore there would have never even been a Sunday if things weren't so SHADY. And as for Shawn Estrada, I dont know what fight you were watching but I was standing beside the ring and almost got hit from the spit of his mouthpiece the THREE times he SPIT it out. And as for it being fitted, whose problem is that, he knew he was going into a major competition.That says alot about a person that doesnt even come to the trials PREPARED. But anyway we all know that all of these kids were picked to win and the only two that I know won own their ability to box and deserve there spot is Raushee and Saddam.

sheepgirl98 · Post by **sheepgirl98** » 29 Aug 2007, 22:41

Well I dont know maybe you should talk to all the people that had him picked to win before the tournament. That is a good question since he has never been to any international competition and Hylon has international hardware: a silver medal in England and a Gold medal in Azerbaijan. Maybe they feel that since Hylon is so young he will hang around for the next Olympics. Which I think all of the teenagers should do. Let's just face reality besides Raushee Warren and Luis Yanez none of these other guys stand a snow balls chance in hell against these strong, 27-28 yr old two-time Olympians from Russia and Cuba,and Europe.

Hugo · Post by **Hugo** » 29 Aug 2007, 23:50

Good thing that you support your USA olympic team I'll hate to see if you were againts it.

#1fan · Post by **#1fan** » 30 Aug 2007, 05:58

I agree that there are boxers that are favored and talked about before an event and therefore won their bout with a little help from someone higher up. There were too many things that went on at the trials to make me think otherwise. The draw for instance. We were all there when the draw was done. That should have been set. Two hours after the draw Wilson was phoned to say they had made an error in the draw and instead of fighting one fighter, he would fight another. How does that happen? How do you make an error when the draw was done in front of everyone? The only person that could have looked like he beat Mike without much question was Kimdo. They had to make sure he would fight him before he got to Hunter. We have seen the "illegal" tapes of both fights and NO I don't feel guilty one bit. It shows without a doubt that Mike won both bouts. There is no way you can watch the second fight and NOT see it. It was clear that someone did not want Wilson and Hunter to fight. The bottom line is this. The team is set, Good luck to them all. Mike Wilson stuck around for this. A chance we took after we were warned that this could happen. I did not believe it either. We felt surely they would not play favorites, we were wrong. We prayed prior to each fight for #1 the safety of the boxers and #2 fair judges. Mike could take a loss if it was real. Mike felt that you learn more from losses than from a win. The ones that hurt were the ones that had questions. The last fight with Bethel was so obvious. There was not one person that came up to us after the fight that could believe he did not win. Mike poured his heart and soul into boxing. Yes he messed up last year and he paid the price for it. He accepted responsibility for his actions and he moved on. There is NOBODY that can say he was not a good sportsman. He was a team player and he was leader. He has grown up with many of the boxers and the staff at USAB. He was gone from his family for months at a time. He did everything USAB asked him to do and more. Do we feel he was done dirty? you bet ya. He is from a small town, the gym he works out of was open only sporadically. His trainer was busy with his business. Mike learned what he knew from the camps he attended. His garage is his gym and he was and continues to be pretty dedicated. Imagine what he will be when he has a trainer. He has had multiple promoter contact him in the days after and they continue to call. He is in no hurry to make any decisions. Perhaps not all the team was hand picked but you can't convince me that some of the team was not going to make it come hell or high water. So I am with Jane, I hope the people responsible never have a good nights sleep. Or better yet, someday one of their family may have something similar happen and it will be totally out of their control. Signed, Mikes biggest fan, his Mom. I won't hide behind an alias but I have to say whoever Jane is, I agree with her on many points.

JohnDoe wrote:Sounds like a conspiracy theory. There's no way in hell that USAB picked Estrada and I'm sure they would have preferred Dargan. That being said, the judges watch the boxers they know and hear about and USAB definitely talks about some a LOT more than others. i.e. Gary Russell seems to be bed buddies with some at USAB.....

emile · Post by **emile** » 30 Aug 2007, 10:39

I appreciate your disappointment about your son losing, and I think everybody respects him for all the time he's put into amateur boxing and being a well-spoken advocate for the sport.

But, under the current scoring system, results are usually close and often a bit hard to predict. In -every single fight- that wasn't a complete blowout the losing fighter thought he won. Even in the blowouts, every losing fighter thought he didn't get enough credit. Fighters and their families cannot be taken as objective arbiters of the scoring. Being disappointed with the particular judging or scoring system is fine - questioning the legitimacy of the whole tournament is just counterproductive and in poor spirit.

Until someone gives me *any* good theory as to why certain boxers would have been favored by the powers that be, I'll assume it's all just nonsense. The explanation given for why Raynell might have been favored Raynell was so feeble, that it's not even worth going into.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 30 Aug 2007, 18:38

Rau'shee was favored and hand picked and clearly did not deserve to win!

I'm obviously kidding!!!

If Rau'shee had somehow been knocked down and the bout stopped, but then overturned on some technicality I would agree that their was some major BS going on. I agree with Emile - often the bouts are close and there can be some favoritism, but outright robbery is unlikely.

I think Danny Jacobs was one of the "chosen" few that USAB liked and yet he didn't win. Estrada has a reputation as a boxer who doesn't always play by the rules and gets DQ'd and yet he won. If USAB was going to pick a boxer in the 165# class, I don't think it would have been Estrada. I wasn't in Houston, but I have a feeling that if I saw the Estrada-Jacobs bout I would think Shawn won. Keep in mind that I had predicted that Jacobs would win so that would be going against my preconceived notion of what would happen.

I don't always agree with the scoring or the officiating, but I just can't see that USAB picked the 11 winners ahead of time. Yes, they wanted Rau'shee to win since he is our best shot at Olympic gold. Yes, they probably wanted Andrade to win, since he is our best shot at a medal in the 152# class. They both won, but I don't think it was a conspiracy. If they would have somehow gotten Karl Dargan into the olympic trials, then I would have been on the conspiracy bandwagon.

Good luck to the 11 guys that are on the team. I wish them all well.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 31 Aug 2007, 15:17

You have that right. The team as well as the coaches were already picked.

Please explain to me, in detail, how the boxers were picked before the Trials. One theory is that "USA Boxing" (whoever that is) has a meeting with all the judges before the event and tells them who they want. I got a later apology for that one.

Kolya - yes, all but 4 of the officials were AIBAs, (and 2 were Master AIBA) but they were American AIBAs. We don't bring in foreign officials for our non-dual meet events.

I think it's time to bury the hatchet and quit crying about who didn't win and support the 11 who did. It doesn't do any of our Olympic team members a bit of good if they are constantly being badgered because some people think they didn't win.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 31 Aug 2007, 15:35

Of course there weren't any bad decisions. There never is in boxing! Pro or amateur. Fans just have different opinions of who won.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 31 Aug 2007, 15:38

And most fans are not trained officials and they only see one point of view. Oh well....moving right along.....

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 31 Aug 2007, 15:44

And they might not be seeing the bout from the same side of the ring as the judges who are scoring against their favorite boxers.

Dancin' Dan · Post by **Dancin' Dan** » 31 Aug 2007, 18:15

Regardless - I dig Mike Wilson and think he could end up being a terrific pro. It would appear when things didn't go great at the Pan Ams a choice was made. However, he was winning his fight at the Pam Ams till a fast stoppage in the last round changed things. He should look for a good group of folks, ie Golden Boy or Goosen and begin his pro career. I'm sure he is angry now about sticking around another four years however he has had the opportunity to grow and develop outside of the pro game. That is why the Eastern Europeans are so dominate now. Take it all and use it. [/img]

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 31 Aug 2007, 18:36

It would appear when things didn't go great at the Pan Ams a choice was made.

Would appreciate it very much if you would explain the above statement, with facts, of course.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 31 Aug 2007, 20:01

By still being in the amateurs, his mistake last year didn't affect his pro career. It is a good idea to get your mistakes in and out of the ring out of the way before turning pro.

Were there any bad decisions at the Olympic trials?

Were there any bad decisions at the Olympic trials?

Re: Were there any bad decisions at the Olympic trials?

what was the conspiracy for Raynell over Hylon